Ivory's Future In Pool Cues

Balabushka_Man

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been reading a lot of stuff on the proposed new laws on "pre ban ivory" eventually also being banned. From what I've read it would not allow sales across state lines, but would allow sales within the state in which you live. I could be wrong there as I am no expert in that interpretation by any means. I don't know what to think anymore seeing it will effect so many hobbies and ownership of collector items such as pool cues, gun collectors, musical instruments, chess sets, antique collectors, and the like. IMHO I would think that value eventually will go up substantially cause of it becoming more and more rare in new production and items no longer being built with the pre ban ivory, in particular our hobby being pool cues. I also feel that with so much at stake with folks valuable hobby collections that there will be some exceptions to these new bills and newer regulations. Being that ivory has always been the old school fancy mainstay for inlays, butt caps, ferrules, and the like I wonder what the future will bring ?
 
I've been reading a lot of stuff on the proposed new laws on "pre ban ivory" eventually also being banned. From what I've read it would not allow sales across state lines, but would allow sales within the state in which you live. I could be wrong there as I am no expert in that interpretation by any means. I don't know what to think anymore seeing it will effect so many hobbies and ownership of collector items such as pool cues, gun collectors, musical instruments, chess sets, antique collectors, and the like. IMHO I would think that value eventually will go up substantially cause of it becoming more and more rare in new production and items no longer being built with the pre ban ivory, in particular our hobby being pool cues. I also feel that with so much at stake with folks valuable hobby collections that there will be some exceptions to these new bills and newer regulations. Being that ivory has always been the old school fancy mainstay for inlays, butt caps, ferrules, and the like I wonder what the future will bring ?

The value will only go up overseas. People will be lessthrilled to buy ivory cues because of the hassles.

Just look at the ivory ferruled Southwest cues. They sit for a lot longer than they used to in no small part because ivory is not as desirable in the market because of threats on the horizon.
 
Even though I'm in full support of efforts to eliminate elephant poaching, we can see that this is another example of regulators going beyond the original intention.

It's like the anti-smoking crowd: ban cigarette smoking in public places...so people change to vape-smoke...and the anti-smokers want to ban that too. Give a regulator control over people's lives and they always want more control. (BTW, I don't smoke)

Now they want to regulate the internet under 70-year old rules written for telephones. They say "Don't worry, we'd never regulate it to that extent." Yeah, right.

If your job is to regulate...you get paid to regulate...you'll find a reason to regulate more. Hire more staff, get a bigger budget, get promoted in the bureaucratic hierarchy.
 
From what I've read in depth many organizations like the NRA, which is huge in lobby, are gonna fight it anyway. I still have to disagree and still think value will increase substatially, cause of the many possible legislative changes and add on to these bills and of course sales would still be legal within state lines from what I've read. I think what might happen in the end result is that if one has an item that was built with pre ban ivory prior to the new legislation it will still be able to be sold provided you have that documented clearly. That would seem more fair as to not infringe on the collector values of the many hobby items that they have had for many years as law abiding pre ban ivory owners. So, get you pre ban ivory cue while ya still can I say...
 
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Ivory Future

I've been reading a lot of stuff on the proposed new laws on "pre ban ivory" eventually also being banned. From what I've read it would not allow sales across state lines, but would allow sales within the state in which you live. I could be wrong there as I am no expert in that interpretation by any means. I don't know what to think anymore seeing it will effect so many hobbies and ownership of collector items such as pool cues, gun collectors, musical instruments, chess sets, antique collectors, and the like. IMHO I would think that value eventually will go up substantially cause of it becoming more and more rare in new production and items no longer being built with the pre ban ivory, in particular our hobby being pool cues. I also feel that with so much at stake with folks valuable hobby collections that there will be some exceptions to these new bills and newer regulations. Being that ivory has always been the old school fancy mainstay for inlays, butt caps, ferrules, and the like I wonder what the future will bring ?

I have a cue that is full of it and ivory ferrules. Honestly the cue plays great but squirts the cue ball just enough more to throw me off just a bit. Ive decided that is the last ivory ferruled cue I will own unless its one of the new mini size ferrules.

Just my opinion but when I think how awesome and elephant is, I cant imagine some nit with shooting one just for the ivory. I think Ivory is done.
 
I have a cue that is full of it and ivory ferrules. Honestly the cue plays great but squirts the cue ball just enough more to throw me off just a bit. Ive decided that is the last ivory ferruled cue I will own unless its one of the new mini size ferrules.

Just my opinion but when I think how awesome and elephant is, I cant imagine some nit with shooting one just for the ivory. I think Ivory is done.

Seems to me you just need to buy yourself a low deflection shaft. If ya ever decide to sell that ivory cue of yours full of pre ban ivory way under market value let us all know since you currently feel that way....
 
I'm all for protecting the elephants and don't think there is a need for ivory to be used for anything these days.

I don't think it's right that the resale of existing items with currently legal ivory will be greatly restricted under these new regulations. I think there should be exemptions for everything prior to the currently proposed legislation.

I don't think those exemptions will happen, in large part because they would be a nightmare to monitor and enforce, among other reasons.

I think the ivory will still be sought after by some, but overall I think the value of ivory laden cues will go down because of the difficulty in resale. Scarcity can increase value, but the chance of loss of the item and legal ramifications of trying to sell ivory across state lines will severely limit the market of those willing to take that chance.
 
I wonder how many folks that don't own a pre ban real ivory cue will oppose my view of values going up with hopes they can bring the cue values down and steal one. To tell ya the truth it wouldn't surprise me one bit. Seen it before on other hobby sites other than pool cues... I would never sell mine anyway.
 
My guess would be nobody. If they succeeded then the value of the ivory cues would be down anyway, they wouldn't actually be gaining any value by doing so and they'd be exposing themselves to the potential continuation of the erosion of that value.

I wonder how many folks who own pre-ban ivory cues will profess their belief in prices going up in hopes of protecting their investment. I think that is much more likely.
 
...I still have to disagree and still think value will increase substatially, cause of the many possible legislative changes and add on to these bills and of course sales would still be legal within state lines from what I've read. I think what might happen in the end result is that if one has an item that was built with pre ban ivory prior to the new legislation it will still be able to be sold provided you have that documented clearly. That would seem more fair as to not infringe on the collector values of the many hobby items that they have had for many years as law abiding pre ban ivory owners. So, get you pre ban ivory cue while ya still can I say...

Not so. California, New York and New Jersey already have laws banning the sale of ivory. Other states presently have legislation that will likely pass and prohibit the same. Forget about pre-ban and proper documentation, it is worthless and won't exempt anyone except museums from the law. Basically, to move anything having ivory in it from one party to another will be a crime.

BTW, China has just passed their own legislation which will prohibit the importation of ivory. The law will cover one year and is being done so as to allow China to "assess" the impacts of poaching of elephants.
 
And to add, I'll be happy if I'm wrong. I'd love to see exemptions for all the existing ivory cues out there. I hate the thought of people losing value in their cue collection. I don't plan to buy one anyway so if values skyrocket then good for everyone who owns one. I don't think that will happen, but doesn't mean I'm happy about it.
 
Oh boy, I guess I best post right now in the AZ for sale section my high end pre ban ivory cue for pennies on the dollar..... yeah right..... I know someday my grandson is gonna be the envy of our pool room, so don't look for mine anytime soon.....
 
I got an email notice of an exclusive gun auction and this was included regarding any purchases with ivory .

An important point with ivory sales now, as opposed to pre-February 2014,
is that the seller must prove the ivory complies with the above statements in
order to lawfully sell it. U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service website indicates that
in order to properly prove an item is legal to commercially sell and export,
there should be a certification prepared demonstrating that it complies with
the law. These certifications are referred to as: 1) ESA Antique Certification,
(if African or Asian ivory and 100 or more years old), or; 2) an ESA Pre-Ban
Certification for African (not Asian ivory) if imported before January 18th,
1990. Certifications must:
a) Differentiate between Asian ivory and African ivory and
b) Prove and explain the general age of the ivory.
ESA documents may be acquired from Mr. John Sexton, 1962 Portage Landing
North, North Palm Beach, FL 33408. Mr. Sexton is a long time appraiser, a
member of the ASA, and meets qualifications designated by the U.S. Fish &
Wildlife Service as an individual qualified to prepare ESA documents. His fee
is $1,500 for each ESA document. John Sexton is an independent consultant
with appropriate U.S. Government qualifications to prepare ESA statements.
It is the buyer’s responsibility to pay John Sexton for ESA statements. The
documents are prepared by John Sexton, not James D. Julia Auctioneers. Once
the statements are prepared, a copy will be presented to Julia’s and kept on
file, and then Julia’s will present you with the ivory objects. Another copy of
the certificate should be kept for your records. Any item designated as ivory
in our catalog description and being offered for sale is done so only because
it complies with current regulations and must be accompanied by an ESA
document. If the lot does not already include an ESA document, the buyer
must hire John Sexton to prepare one or sign the waiver form approved by
Julia’s.
In closing, James D. Julia is committed to comply with all Federal laws and
regulations. The current regulations do not prohibit collectors from buying
and selling ivory, but they do establish new standards of proof. Our approach
is to continue to sell our consignors’ goods but to strictly follow those new
standards of proof.
All of this pertains only to objects that have ivory. Any such object in our
auction shall have a special green identification tag.
Also, please note: There are certain states that have far more restrictive ivory
laws. Currently, we are aware of California, New York, and New Jersey. We
cannot and will not ship items containing ivory to any of these 3 states.
Special Note and Possible Exception
We have adopted the above procedure to protect the buyer, seller, and
auctioneer. However, various buyers have argued that they do not wish to
pay $1,500 to have the ESA certification, and that they are willing to bear
the risk themselves on any matter relating to ivory objects. These buyers have
argued that since we have already vetted the items to be sure that they comply
with the law, they are satisfied with that assurance and do not want the ESA
certification. As we stated above, the procedure that we initially established
protects everyone, but if you as a buyer wish to purchase an item and bear
all risks and responsibilities from this point on, we will indeed let you take
possession of an ivory or ivory mounted object that we have offered in our
catalogs. However, you must sign a special waiver that specifically, clearly and
completely waives all risks, all responsibilities, all potential loss of value, or any
other loss, damage or liability that might arise at some later date after you have
accepted the ivory. If, in lieu of the cost of the $1,500 for ESA certification,
you agree to sign this special waiver, then we will agree to release the ivory
item to you.
In conclusion, if you purchase an ivory item, you must:
a) Obtain an ESA certification from John Sexton at $1,500, or;
b) Sign and deliver a “Waiver of Legal and Financial Risk to James D.
Julia in regards to your Purchase of an Ivory Object”
Please do not bid on any ivory item if you are not prepared and willing
to comply with either Option a) or Option b) above. You are, of course,
entitled to obtain an ESA certificate from an expert other than John Sexton,
but only after you have signed our “Waiver of Legal and Financial Risk to
James D. Julia in regards to your Purchase of an Ivory Object”.
Export Interstate Sale (across state lines)
Asian Elephant Objects containing Asian elephant ivory
must be at least 100 years old or older.
Objects containing Asian elephant ivory must be at least 100 years old or older.
African Elephant CITES pre-convention worked ivory
including antiques that meet CITES
permitting requirements.
Objects that are 100 years old or older or ivory lawfully imported prior to the date the
African elephant was listed in CITES appendix 1 (January 18th, 1990). Ivory imported
under a CITES pre-convention document.
rev.

Notice there is listed a man who can clear your ivory for just $1500, nice con don't you think?
 
Seems to me you just need to buy yourself a low deflection shaft. If ya ever decide to sell that ivory cue of yours full of pre ban ivory way under market value let us all know since you currently feel that way....

That may be what I do. I have 5 shafts ivory ferrules with that cue.
 
I agree, there is no harm to them anymore with already existing pre ban ivory that can be used. MOP is way more fragile than ivory as well and just is the most beautiful inlay of choice imho.
 
There are 400,000 years worth of ivory from millions of mammoths in the Siberian permafrost. Just as pressure on extant elephants is getting stronger from human encroachment in their habitat, the thawing of the permafrost from global warming is revealing a bounty of ivory that wasn't otherwise accessible.

There are easy ways to tell them apart using a simple microscope (in fact, USFWS has a guide on their website). I don't condone using recent elephant ivory, but there should be nothing wrong with using antique elephant ivory or that from mammoths.

http://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php#elephant
 
The value will only go up overseas. People will be lessthrilled to buy ivory cues because of the hassles.

Just look at the ivory ferruled Southwest cues. They sit for a lot longer than they used to in no small part because ivory is not as desirable in the market because of threats on the horizon.

Not just that, a lot of people feel it is wrong to kill "Endangered Species" for their ivory. I feel people holding pre-ban ivory items should be able to use what they have in anyway they wish. But they better be able to document it is pre-ban, else face massive fines, etc.
 
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