If that's all you understand of what's been said, then you should definitely stick with your oversimplified version. Even though it's partly wrong, at least it won't give you a headache.
pj
chgo
Cuttung shots with inside english.and the contact point.
- Thread starter LAMas
- Start date
pj
chgo
Cue speed.......and just what cue speeds are being considered?
For a stroke to work, several groups of muscle, actually they whole body but I'm just referring to the stroke arm, must work together to provide a smooth, controlled, repeatable stroke in a variety of shooting positions.
Try this...... Get into a shooting position such that the tip of the cue is against the CB.
Now stroke forward, no back stroke.
Now, do a inch of back stroke before going forward.
Now, do two inches of back stroke.
And so on.
The point is that you really don't need a lot of back stroke as you might think.
For a stroke to work, several groups of muscle, actually they whole body but I'm just referring to the stroke arm, must work together to provide a smooth, controlled, repeatable stroke in a variety of shooting positions.
Try this...... Get into a shooting position such that the tip of the cue is against the CB.
Now stroke forward, no back stroke.
Now, do a inch of back stroke before going forward.
Now, do two inches of back stroke.
And so on.
The point is that you really don't need a lot of back stroke as you might think.
Jon,
For discussion sake, how about we keep it with one player to keep all else equal.
How does one get the exact same speed with twice as much follow through?
The stroke of the 4" follow through had to start stopping before that of the 8" follow through or it had to have less speed to begin with.
As so often happens here on AZB, some, & I'm not referring to just you, Jon, seem to assume that everyone is using the same type of stroke.
Mr. Wiley is not using the same type of stroke as Scott Lee & there are many out here in the real world that do not use the same stroke as either of them.
Would it be fair to say that in a stroke such as Mr. Lee uses where the stroking hand goes to the same finish position 'every' time, that there can not hardly be a longer follow through.
It's different strokes for different folks & hence for some types of strokes the follow through, or for those that want to nit pic, what causes the follow through, can have different affects on what the cue ball does.
Yes, we all know that the ball is gone AFTER contact is complete. But... does the follow through begin at the initial moment of contact or is it after the ball leaves the tip.
For certain types of strokes the length of follow through is a by product of what went in before contact.
So...for certain types of strokes, the follow through or what causes it can certainly be what affects how the ball reacts. IMHO.
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
PS I think we all know that everyone does not speak literally in every instance. I doubt that Mr. Wiley actually thinks that it is the actual follow through after the ball is gone that can make a difference, But as I explained it's what causes the different follow through that actually affects the ball differently.
PSS What is almost always left out of the argumentative discussions is the timing of a stroke.
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I can't help but wonder if some of you are even aware of what the cue acts like pre-contact, contact, and post contact. For those that think they can keep the cue accelerating through the complete shot, well, they just don't know what they don't know.
Because the speed is at it's highest at contact. Not after, and not before, unless you let up on the stroke.
This isn't some faith based observation.
Actually, with a pendulum stroke, the acceleration will peak out before contact and go to zero. This means that you are hitting with a constant speed, not a changing speed.
Hi Pidge,
I've relatively recently started playing some one pocket & I quickly realised that I had to tighten my grip connection to the cue to get done what I was failing to get done before.
I've always mostly played with a loose connection as is advocated by many even though not the same type but Mr. Wiley advocates a firmer more tennis like grip connection.
When I started trying out the TOI method that he introduced here my connection & grip naturally gravitated to a different & more firm connection to the cue. I made no conscious effort to make that change. It was an all of a sudden realization that the change had occurred.
Could it be that one is more conducive for spinning the ball as I had been doing & one is more conducive to not getting much spin?
Can the subconscious minds of some pick up on what we want to do & make the 'conducive' changes to get our intentions done? Can some of us learn from our subconscious minds by getting our conscious brain out of the way while others for some reason may not be capable of that.
Sorry for the digression.
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
Oy vey.
pj
chgo
A loose grip allows for a faster hand speed generally speaking so I would have to say yes, a loose grip is able to spin the ball more. A tighter grip causes tension in the forearm and therefore can not have as much hand/ cue speed as a looser grip but in my experience a firmer grip makes for a more accurate contact on the white. I think the major benefit of a tight grip is having the cue against the webbing between thumb and index finger. It isn't able to move as freely ao the cue can only go through the ball at the speed at which the hand allows. But, what you lose in speed (and it is only a small amount) you gain with precision. For example, have a very loose grip with acres of space between cue and webbing and clench the cue and notice how much the tip moves...that is the main reason I'm not a big fan of a loose grip.
As for the conscious and subconscious part of your post...i have absolutely no idea.
The cue accelerates, then comes to a very near if not complete stop before it then accelerates again before then decelerating to a stop. The acceleration is interrupted by the the collision with the ball. (Hence, the connection to the cue does matter, IMO)
I know what happens but I understand that everyone does not always speak literally as I tried to point out.
I am glad to see that you are 'okay'. I noticed you had not posted recently & I was a bit concerned. (I said a prayer.)
That said, I was hoping that you had decided to retire.:wink:
Best of God's helping Blessings to You,
Rick
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In pool "more spin" means higher spin-to-speed ratio, not higher RPMs. More tip speed only produces higher RPMS - you have to hit farther from center to get a higher spin-to-speed ratio.
pj
chgo
Easily accomplished by simply re-starting the stroke. It's as simple as extending the follow through. All one has to do is continue to extend the arm out using the shoulder.
So how does one get the different lengths of follow through?
That's only at one point in a true gravity 'driven' pendulum & not with a human being trying to emulate a true pendulum.
So why do I generate more draw when hitting the cue ball with a loose grip compared to a tight grip trying to make all other things equal (tip speed, elevation, tip contact position)?
Pidge,
I agree with what you say but with the caveat that a loose connection can be as accurate but it has the tendency for outlier mishits to occur.
To me that is a reason to not use the center axis as one's main predominant shot. One never knows when that outlier will appear nor on what side of the vertical axis it will be.
Best 2 You & All,
Rick
There is no argument in my mind that favouring on side of the ball is better than trying to hit the plain ball. If you have a stroke fault that causes you to miss the desired contact with the white by 5mm for example - whether you line up and judge the shot using centre ball, inside, outside or a TOI you will still miss the pot and not get the outcome you desire whether it be positional or potting.
So as far as this subject goes, I cant agree with you
That is not a true follow through. That is what I referred to as a fake or contrived 'follow through'. That is of the type that CJ mentions when 'decoying' an opponent. That type belies what I would say the definition of follow through is...or should be.
I do not think that is what I & others have been talking about. If so, I think the discussion has been useless.
But...as is often the case a misunderstanding can be created by a difference of vernacular, either unitentionally or by contrivance.
May God Bless You, Neil.
Ron Swanson
Banned
It isn't what I understand that's important, it's what the rest of the pool playing world understands that's important. And they couldn't care less what a handful of uber nerds think.
I would suggest ditching anything that is needlessly confusing.