Cuttung shots with inside english.and the contact point.

[LAMas]

Cutting shots with inside english.and the contact point.

I notice that some good players cut shots in using inside English.

When I started to play, I used a house cue with a lot of deflection on cuts and had to adjust for that when using English.. I preferred to use more center ball to escape deflection because it was more intuitive and predictable to me.

I now use a low deflection Z2 and I still prefer center ball using CP2CP. Low deflection shafts still have some deflection that needs less compensation.

While trying TOI, I noticed that on thick cuts, I could use inside English and aim the cue at the contact point and make the shot. It must be that the deflection is doubling the distance form the center of the OB to the contact point on the OB.

This works well on thick cuts where the inside English is just a touch, but on thinner cuts, the results were too thick. By using more than a touch of inside, I could make thinner cuts while still aiming at the contact point on the OB.

The amount of inside on the CB is proportional to the obverse of the CP on the OB.

Of course, I use this when I can get shape as well.

Just saying.

Be well.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Depends in part on cut angle? I think both Todd Leveck and Jack Koehler (?) first noted that at less than around 35 degrees, inside english has a negligible effect on cut balls... which makes it handy on those shots if you want an aiming aid.

That's just a general observation not touching so much on TOI, which helps people aim balls more full than they likely did before they used it, or the TOI system of intentionally throwing balls to "enlarge" the target pocket.

I've known a lot of people who found outside english more intuitive than inside to use, a shame since it's a heck of lot easier to run a rack cutting with inside than out IMHO.

 

[Pidge]

I feel a lot of players use inside because they have got into the habit of hitting them (especially the thinner cuts) too thick. They then use inside to deflect the cue ball to make a thinner hit without having to worry too much about SIT on the thinner hits. I've seen players of all capabilities utilise this way of playing. I've also seen many varieties of inside used. I've seen players that cant pot thin cuts without at least 2 tips of inside which is far too much IMO. A TOI tops works wonders. Any more and your position is at the mercy of simply making the ball.

Just a little side note on my experience with inside and very thin cuts. In snooker I got propositioned by an old timer when I was in my early teens. He placed the cue ball on the yellow spot, black ball on the black spot and asked me to pot it back into the bottom right pocket. When you stand behind this shot it looks impossible. Perhaps its the distance between the two balls or the fact its just a very thin pot. I refused and asked the old guy to prove it was possible. He walks around the table picking his contact point, back to behind the cue ball and fires it in. I tried and tried and couldn't do it. My long potting was far better than his due to my young eyes and he was getting on a bit, id say about 70ish. I practiced it for weeks never being able to make it consistently. He comes over to my table one day and says just use a bit of right hand side (inside) and hit it hard. Well, what do you know I was knocking them in for fun. I would pick my centre ball line of aim, and when down just move the tip over fractionally to the inside. It worked wonders. The distance cancels any inside once it hits the bottom rail after hitting the black, that's how little it actually needs. Ever since then if I start missing long pots thick, I start using a little inside on them. If I miss too thin on a few then I use a little outside. Its little things like this that I feel isn't widely known by most, and only the pros use little techniques like these, whether they know it or not.

 

[336Robin]

I notice that some good players cut shots in using inside English.

When I started to play, I used a house cue with a lot of deflection on cuts and had to adjust for that when using English.. I preferred to use more center ball to escape deflection because it was more intuitive and predictable to me.

I now use a low deflection Z2 and I still prefer center ball using CP2CP. Low deflection shafts still have some deflection that needs less compensation.

While trying TOI, I noticed that on thick cuts, I could use inside English and aim the cue at the contact point and make the shot. It must be that the deflection is doubling the distance form the center of the OB to the contact point on the OB.

This works well on thick cuts where the inside English is just a touch, but on thinner cuts, the results were too thick. By using more than a touch of inside, I could make thinner cuts while still aiming at the contact point on the OB.

The amount of inside on the CB is proportional to the obverse of the CP on the OB.

Of course, I use this when I can get shape as well.

Just saying.

Be well.

Depends in part on cut angle? I think both Todd Leveck and Jack Koehler (?) first noted that at less than around 35 degrees, inside english has a negligible effect on cut balls... which makes it handy on those shots if you want an aiming aid.

That's just a general observation not touching so much on TOI, which helps people aim balls more full than they likely did before they used it, or the TOI system of intentionally throwing balls to "enlarge" the target pocket.

I've known a lot of people who found outside english more intuitive than inside to use, a shame since it's a heck of lot easier to run a rack cutting with inside than out IMHO.

I haven't gotten into the TOI thing in depth in my game like using it all of the time but have noticed using "Hold Up" which is many times Inside English is very beneficial for cinching shape and I use normal maple shafts at 12.8 and juma ferrules.

I don't have any of CJ Wiley's material but he talks a lot about something that I find very important and that is the 3 part pocket. Using Inside is a good way to embrace the 3 part pocket especially if you use normal maple in your game. I aim a good many of the shots I know will squirt more to the nearest side of the pocket to me, then as I stroke the shot it plays to the center and works very, very well.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I feel a lot of players use inside because they have got into the habit of hitting them (especially the thinner cuts) too thick. They then use inside to deflect the cue ball to make a thinner hit without having to worry too much about SIT on the thinner hits. I've seen players of all capabilities utilise this way of playing. I've also seen many varieties of inside used. I've seen players that cant pot thin cuts without at least 2 tips of inside which is far too much IMO. A TOI tops works wonders. Any more and your position is at the mercy of simply making the ball.

Just a little side note on my experience with inside and very thin cuts. In snooker I got propositioned by an old timer when I was in my early teens. He placed the cue ball on the yellow spot, black ball on the black spot and asked me to pot it back into the bottom right pocket. When you stand behind this shot it looks impossible. Perhaps its the distance between the two balls or the fact its just a very thin pot. I refused and asked the old guy to prove it was possible. He walks around the table picking his contact point, back to behind the cue ball and fires it in. I tried and tried and couldn't do it. My long potting was far better than his due to my young eyes and he was getting on a bit, id say about 70ish. I practiced it for weeks never being able to make it consistently. He comes over to my table one day and says just use a bit of right hand side (inside) and hit it hard. Well, what do you know I was knocking them in for fun. I would pick my centre ball line of aim, and when down just move the tip over fractionally to the inside. It worked wonders. The distance cancels any inside once it hits the bottom rail after hitting the black, that's how little it actually needs. Ever since then if I start missing long pots thick, I start using a little inside on them. If I miss too thin on a few then I use a little outside. Its little things like this that I feel isn't widely known by most, and only the pros use little techniques like these, whether they know it or not.

Nice. I love the way you can smash a ball with "fancy" and it cancels out and scores a thin cut. And I also feel TOI can help with the opposite also--people who miss thick cuts by thinning and overcutting them. They are starting to look at the shots as full shots then going from there...

 

[measureman]

I notice that some good players cut shots in using inside English.

When I started to play, I used a house cue with a lot of deflection on cuts and had to adjust for that when using English.. I preferred to use more center ball to escape deflection because it was more intuitive and predictable to me.

I now use a low deflection Z2 and I still prefer center ball using CP2CP. Low deflection shafts still have some deflection that needs less compensation.

While trying TOI, I noticed that on thick cuts, I could use inside English and aim the cue at the contact point and make the shot. It must be that the deflection is doubling the distance form the center of the OB to the contact point on the OB.

This works well on thick cuts where the inside English is just a touch, but on thinner cuts, the results were too thick. By using more than a touch of inside, I could make thinner cuts while still aiming at the contact point on the OB.

The amount of inside on the CB is proportional to the obverse of the CP on the OB.

Of course, I use this when I can get shape as well.

Just saying.

Be well.

I have no idea what that means. I just hit the object ball where it says go in to me.
It really is a simple game.

 

[Mitchxout]

While trying TOI, I noticed that on thick cuts, I could use inside English and aim the cue at the contact point and make the shot.

This is exactly what I discovered as well. Glad someone else finally mentioned this effect, I've been feeling like the lone ranger around here. Even CJ's response was luke warm, basically saying if it works for me, don't question it.

 

[ENGLISH!]

This is exactly what I discovered as well. Glad someone else finally mentioned this effect, I've been feeling like the lone ranger around here. Even CJ's response was luke warm, basically saying if it works for me, don't question it.

There's much one can learn from intentionally hitting off the vertical axis.

Spin is spin but I hope we can eventually come to understand that hitting inside for the USE of the spin is different than hitting inside for the USE of the squirt.

I've often said that one can actually aim/align for the OB to actually miss the pocket & then pocket it by hitting it with that tad of inside tip placement & a firm accelerating stroke to keep any swerve out of the picture. You can't get aiming/aligning more full/thick than that.

But, that way is not with inside english, as the speed of the shot limits the spin induced throw effect & it is not in the direction of the pocket base off of the the alignment to miss the pocket.

But, if one shoots softer & allows the ball to squirt out & then swerve back to contact the OB a bit thinner than would be for a center hit on the CB then the spin will throw the ball into the pocket from the overcut contact point.

Many will argue, 'why not just hit center & pocket the ball?'

Well... some of us have our own reasons for not 'hitting' center but one that is probably best understood is that the cue ball comes off differently for all of those 'options'.

I hope I said that clearly enough.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

Edit: Some will say the difference the cue ball comes off can be gotten by hitting up or down on the center vertical axis.

Perhaps, but it's difficult to get the exact same results as the speed of shot comes importantly into play at times.

 

[Mitchxout]

There's much one can learn from intentionally hitting off the vertical axis.

I've often said that one can actually aim/align for the OB to actually miss the pocket & then pocket it by hitting it with that tad of inside tip placement & a firm accelerating stroke to keep any swerve out of the picture.

But, that way is not with inside english, as the speed of the shot limits the spin induced throw effect & it is not in the direction of the pocket base off of the the alignment to miss the pocket.

But, if one shoots softer & allows the ball to squirt out & then swerve back to contact the OB a bit thinner than would be for a center hit on the CB then the spin will throw the ball into the pocket from the overcut contact point.

Many will argue, 'why not just hit center & pocket the ball?'

Well... some of us have our own reasons for not 'hitting' center but one that is probably best understood is that the cue ball comes off differently for all of those 'options'.

I hope I said that clearly enough.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

I quoted Hal Mix in a post recently, in which he described this very effect-aiming the shaft at the contact point with slight inside English. If I can find it, I'll post it here.

 

[Mitchxout]

I have no idea what that means. I just hit the object ball where it says go in to me.
It really is a simple game.

Some of us find an artful beauty in a world of possibles.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I quoted Hal Mix in a post recently, in which he described this very effect-aiming the shaft at the contact point with slight inside English. If I can find it, I'll post it here.

Please note that I made some changes & additions to my post. It's basically the same, I just hope it's more clear.

 

[duckie]

Some of us find an artful beauty in a world of possibles.

Oh really....

Then how come it is always a cut shot discussed?

How bout your fancy how to do on a rail first shot?

Or a combo?

Or a carom?

The world of possibilities include the above shots ,yet all CTE, TOI, Fractional, and a list of others are only good for cut shots.

And it also few appear to be concerned with shape since most of the discussion is on making the ball and never about making the ball and getting shape.....very limited possibilities there.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Oh really....

Then how come it is always a cut shot discussed?

How bout your fancy how to do on a rail first shot?

Or a combo?

Or a carom?

The world of possibilities include the above shots ,yet all CTE, TOI, Fractional, and a list of others are only good for cut shots.

And it also few appear to be concerned with shape since most of the discussion is on making the ball and never about making the ball and getting shape.....very limited possibilities there.

Greg,

Why don't you open threads specifically for those type of shots that you want discussed?

Best 2 you,
Rick

 

[Mikjary]

Some of us find an artful beauty in a world of possibles.

Very true. I enjoy the different systems for aiming and cueing. Especially the off center hits. lining up my ferrule, and pivoting. The reason is that I know my conscious mind will preoccupy itself with the task at hand.

While I'm mentally performing one or more of these tasks, my automatic pilot is allowed to come to the forefront and quietly take over the shot. I punch in the right baseline data and it finds the best choice to make the ball.

Best,
Mike

 

[CJ Wiley]

TOI doesn't apply enough "inside english" to even notice

I notice that some good players cut shots in using inside English.

When I started to play, I used a house cue with a lot of deflection on cuts and had to adjust for that when using English.. I preferred to use more center ball to escape deflection because it was more intuitive and predictable to me.

I now use a low deflection Z2 and I still prefer center ball using CP2CP. Low deflection shafts still have some deflection that needs less compensation.

While trying TOI, I noticed that on thick cuts, I could use inside English and aim the cue at the contact point and make the shot. It must be that the deflection is doubling the distance form the center of the OB to the contact point on the OB.

This works well on thick cuts where the inside English is just a touch, but on thinner cuts, the results were too thick. By using more than a touch of inside, I could make thinner cuts while still aiming at the contact point on the OB.

The amount of inside on the CB is proportional to the obverse of the CP on the OB.

Of course, I use this when I can get shape as well.

Just saying.

Be well.

At the more advanced levels TOI doesn't apply enough "inside english" to even notice.....it's more like a "touch" of inside.

Before a players develops this degree of presision in their stroke they will have to use more TOI, which will produce noticeable inside spin, just remember, when you pivot correctly you can use a "Hair of Inside" (HOI) and get the best result.

 

[LAMas]

Thanks CJ,

Does the accelerating stroke cause the CB to slide and reduce swerve as well?

Be well.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There's much one can learn from intentionally hitting off the vertical axis.

I'm pretty sure any regular player intentionally hits off the vertical axis all the time, without limiting their choices. Centerball (Touch of NothingTM) is the right choice for many shots. Avoiding it is needlessly limiting yourself.

pj
chgo

 

[336Robin]

I have no idea what that means. I just hit the object ball where it says go in to me.
It really is a simple game.

A lot of people don't understand that apparently and don't know how to listen to what their eyes tell them.

 

[duckie]

I have no idea what that means. I just hit the object ball where it says go in to me.
It really is a simple game.

I read some of this stuff and wonder if I'm playing the same game as these folks.

Sure seems some at making it way more complicated then needs to be.

 

[SmoothStroke]

The only time I use center ball is when I need it, usually a stop shot or straight draw, so not that often. Otherwise I aim outside the crease, even if it's an eyelash, I push in or out. It doesn't matter if it's a full hit or 90 degrees, I hit what the game asks me to do, or I will quit forever.

On cut shots I use whatever I need in order to control the cue ball. What good is cutting a ball and losing the cue ball. If I need to hit 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 o'clock that's what I hit, it's about cue ball control, it's just another shot.

If I had to cut a ball steep and not worry about the cue ball (Which is something I never do) I would favor inside.
If you can't hit center ball at will you have no business pushing to the sides. Different strokes for different folks.

Sincerely: SS