APA question about foul

[hang-the-9]

The discussion wasn't about picking up the cue while it is in motion, but about a movement made to another ball. Personally, I'd prefer it if any movement of any ball at any time (other than resulting from a proper shot) would be a foul, as it would encourage better play by punishing poor mechanics or carelessness, but that isn't the case.

Right, but the cueball was still moving, and I'm assuming other balls were moving also when he grabbed the ball that was bumped. If you shoot, bump a ball, it's accidental, but in this case, there was a shot, moved ball, then while other balls were still moving, the player picked up a ball off the table in the middle of a shot.

I'm not talking about the cueball being moved, but ANY ball being moved while other balls are in motion.

There are 3 fouls in this shot, moving the ball without checking with the opponent, moving the ball out of the path of the cueball, moving a ball deliberately while other balls are in motion so it's still in the middle of the shot. Any of those is a ball in hand violation.

 

[jeremy8000]

Right, but the cueball was still moving, and I'm assuming other balls were moving also when he grabbed the ball that was bumped. If you shoot, bump a ball, it's accidental, but in this case, there was a shot, moved ball, then while other balls were still moving, the player picked up a ball off the table in the middle of a shot.

I'm not talking about the cueball being moved, but ANY ball being moved while other balls are in motion.

There are 3 fouls in this shot, moving the ball without checking with the opponent, moving the ball out of the path of the cueball, moving a ball deliberately while other balls are in motion so it's still in the middle of the shot. Any of those is a ball in hand violation.

Again, it's a matter of local APA league operator interpretation. If the shooter moved a nudged ball back after their shot, my local league says that it is not a BIH foul and the remedy is that the opponent can correct it to where they felt it was. The only instance it which it would absolutely be ruled a BIH foul is if, as is specifically defined, it directly alters the path of the cue. Your local APA LO might rule it differently, and that's kind of a key point - there is not consistency in enforcement of the rules because there is sufficient ambiguity to make arguments for any number of interpretations supportable.

 

[Skippy27]

There are 3 fouls in this shot, moving the ball without checking with the opponent, moving the ball out of the path of the cueball, moving a ball deliberately while other balls are in motion so it's still in the middle of the shot. Any of those is a ball in hand violation.

You are incorrect. There are 10 ways for you to get BIH in the manual starting on page 6.

It is not a BIH foul for you to move an accidentally moved ball back without checking with your opponent. The opponent should do it, but as APA has stated multiple times they understand it is an instinctive reaction to move it yourself. If a ball does get moved before the shot it is the opponents obligation to move it back. If they do not move it, or refuses to move it back, the shooter moves it back as moving it back is NOT an option.

It is not a BIH foul if you move a ball while the cue ball is in motion. The simple act of moving the ball back when they should not have and it should have been done when all balls stop rolling does not grant you BIH. Say you stroke closely by a ball and the deflection causes you to hit the ball with your stick moving it slightly. Not only is the act not a BIH foul, but then if you instinctively move it back while the cue is in motion it is not a foul. However, it is a BIH foul if you move a ball during a shot (like above) and the cue ball then comes in contact with it before or after you move it back.

Though the rules do not explicitly say this, by your opponent picking up or moving the ball to avoid the cue ball contact, you should still get BIH as it would have made contact if the player had not moved it to the original position. Ultimately, that would be a call for the captains or league operator to make as it is not explicitly stated. If they can't come to an agreement it is simply poor sportsmanship and should be noted on your score sheet and play continues how they are.

 

[Skippy27]

Your local APA LO might rule it differently, and that's kind of a key point - there is not consistency in enforcement of the rules because there is sufficient ambiguity to make arguments for any number of interpretations supportable.

Then that is an issue you need to take up with them. The 10 BIH fouls are very clear and it says at the very beginning These are the only fouls resulting in BIH. All other violations are sportsmanship violations.

So as I said above, I would let the captains work it out and if they can't they play how the balls are and it is noted on the score sheet as poor sportsmanship which may cost them a point or 2 on the team score.

 

[pocket]

It is a foul but since the moved ball contacted the cue ball the accidentally moved ball is not replaced after the shot. By the way, the APA rulebook and Team Manual are available in ibooks with a nifty search feature.

Thanks for this. Too bad WPA/BCA doesn't have something similar.

 

[Skippy27]

One other thing about your interpretation comment.

There are many things we can do that the rules don't mention yet we as adults should be able to work it out and move on. As a very fair person if someone did that to me (picked up ball that would have been hit by moving cue ball for a foul) I would expect that person to give me BIH and for their captain to enforce it. Just as much as if I was shooting a ball hanging in the corner and you move it out of the way resulting in me scratching. Rules don't mention that either, but we are intelligent and sportsmen enough to work it out.

Another good example is extremely slow playing. I would expect a captain to put the clamps down on a player playing very slow or walking away from the table constantly. There is a rule to give you an idea of how long it would take, but there is no penalty regardless.

 

[Skippy27]

OK one last thing to leave no open ends.

If the cue ball is frozen to another ball and you accidentally move the ball during a warm up stroke without making contact with the cue ball it is automatically BIH to the opponent.

Say you are shooting over the 13 that is frozen to the cue ball and on a back stroke you accidentally pull the 13 off of the cue ball. You just gave your opponent BIH as that ball can't ever be put back without making illegal contact with the cue ball.

 

[Skippy27]

Thanks for this. Too bad WPA/BCA doesn't have something similar.

They don't need it as I believe if you touch any ball with any part of yourself be it your hand, stick, hair or shirt sleeve at any time whether it is looking over the table, getting into the shoot or out of it you have committed a BIH foul.

 

[hang-the-9]

You are incorrect. There are 10 ways for you to get BIH in the manual starting on page 6.

It is not a BIH foul for you to move an accidentally moved ball back without checking with your opponent. The opponent should do it, but as APA has stated multiple times they understand it is an instinctive reaction to move it yourself. If a ball does get moved before the shot it is the opponents obligation to move it back. If they do not move it, or refuses to move it back, the shooter moves it back as moving it back is NOT an option.

It is not a BIH foul if you move a ball while the cue ball is in motion. The simple act of moving the ball back when they should not have and it should have been done when all balls stop rolling does not grant you BIH. Say you stroke closely by a ball and the deflection causes you to hit the ball with your stick moving it slightly. Not only is the act not a BIH foul, but then if you instinctively move it back while the cue is in motion it is not a foul. However, it is a BIH foul if you move a ball during a shot (like above) and the cue ball then comes in contact with it before or after you move it back.

Though the rules do not explicitly say this, by your opponent picking up or moving the ball to avoid the cue ball contact, you should still get BIH as it would have made contact if the player had not moved it to the original position. Ultimately, that would be a call for the captains or league operator to make as it is not explicitly stated. If they can't come to an agreement it is simply poor sportsmanship and should be noted on your score sheet and play continues how they are.

No clue what you are saying here, I did not say there are ONLY 3 ways to get ball in hand. There may be 10 ways, I don't know because I don't play APA, and if someone said you either quit pool or play by APA rules and in APA bars, well, I'll have a cue for sale. Moving the ball accidently during a shot is not a foul, but if you move a ball while others are in motion AFTER a shot, that is a foul.

About forgiving grabbing a ball because it's automatic to a player, that is why the APA rules get made fun of. Is it OK for me to push a ball in a pocket I hung up because I really really want to do it and I could hot help myself? I thought the players were grown ups that could control their movements.

 

[jeremy8000]

Though the rules do not explicitly say this, by your opponent picking up or moving the ball to avoid the cue ball contact, you should still get BIH as it would have made contact if the player had not moved it to the original position. Ultimately, that would be a call for the captains or league operator to make as it is not explicitly stated.

Then that is an issue you need to take up with them. The 10 BIH fouls are very clear and it says at the very beginning These are the only fouls resulting in BIH. All other violations are sportsmanship violations.

What I highlighted in red text from your top quote was the exact point I was making: there are areas in which, regardless of how well they intended to make clear what constitutes a BIH foul, the league did not provide clear definitions. I can take it up with my league operator who will give me one definitive answer that will apply for purposes of my area, and another league operator might respond differently based on his/her understanding of how the written rules apply.

I wish it were simpler as in with how you referenced the BCA's view on it.

 

[Skippy27]

No clue what you are saying here, I did not say there are ONLY 3 ways to get ball in hand. There may be 10 ways, I don't know because I don't play APA, and if someone said you either quit pool or play by APA rules and in APA bars, well, I'll have a cue for sale. Moving the ball accidently during a shot is not a foul, but if you move a ball while others are in motion AFTER a shot, that is a foul.

About forgiving grabbing a ball because it's automatic to a player, that is why the APA rules get made fun of. Is it OK for me to push a ball in a pocket I hung up because I really really want to do it and I could hot help myself? I thought the players were grown ups that could control their movements.

I never said you said there is only 3. I stated that facts that there are indeed 10 and stated the facts concerning the 3 opinions you gave about BIH.

If you don't play APA, then why are you in a thread about an APA foul question giving your answers, which are incorrect? Seems kind of moronic.

Again, moving a ball after balls are in motion is NOT a foul in APA unless the cue ball comes around and hits it. So stop saying it is. Really take your non-APA playing non-APA rule knowing self out of the thread being you are unqualified to answer the question and clearly hate the APA so much that you would quit playing instead of playing in it.

The APA rules get made fun of because it is an organization for all skill levels and they place sportsmanship and a good time over competitive play and have rules that encourage that. Highly competitive players don't like that and thus the APA is not for them and they bash it instead of accepting it for what it is.

I play in both APA and the MO8 leagues because I like both formats and I am not egotistical in thinking I am above the APA because of who they cater to (as you appear to be). The highly competitive people in the area pretty much play MO8 exclusively because that is where the money is and it doesn't cater to all skill levels. Most tournaments use MO8 as their format for rules and handicap if they have them.

So before you go giving your wrong opinion about an APA rule again I would suggest you at minimum go read their rules so you stop looking so stupid.

 

[Celophanewrap]

Now, before I say this just let me be clear that there are exceptions. I am now and have been an APA player for quite a while, exclusively, and I have been called on to serve the APA in other ways besides as just a player so when I say this I do have some background and credibility where knowing and interpreting the rules are concerned. I have watched, asked questions, and at every opportunity I have used the APA Headquarters as a resource for information for just about everything APA related including rules. So let me reiterate - There are exceptions.

As far as a foul being committed from what the OP originally described let us not forget one thing: In The APA, if you're the shooter and you say so with conviction, and you hold your ground, and there was NO referee or uninterested party watching that was asked to watch, and you say it was not, then It was NOT a foul, regardless of what may have really happened

In all my years as an APA player I have come across many APA players that have the honor of a gutter rat and a some that felt that I could trust with my life. It's really to bad there is such a discrepancy, The APA as intended could really be an outstanding vehicle to promote the game of pool. So I guard my corner and take care of my own house and I play pool as I feel it was intended to be played and that allows me to maintain my dignity and honor and sleep at night. That's important to me.

 

[hang-the-9]

Again, moving a ball after balls are in motion is NOT a foul in APA unless the cue ball comes around and hits it. So stop saying it is.

So I can take a shot, look at the table for a second while the balls do their thing, then grab a ball off the table and either move it around or place it back where it was for no reason and it's not a foul as long as the cueball does not hit it?

I don't see how even the APA rules can say that is OK to do. ACCIDENTALLY moving a ball, sure, but what happened was not an accident. The guy grabbed the ball after he hit it.

I will agree about the APA rules are about having a good time, but not that they are made for sportsmanship, otherwise they would not have a rule in place that you have to actually mark your pocket for the game winning shot instead of just verbally calling it. Why do that? It's because some guy will yell and jump around saying you did not call your shot because he did not see or hear you call it even if the ball is withing 4 inches of the pocket it went into. Nor would there be threads about some APA team letting a new captain put up a player that will bring them up over the player cap then telling him that he just lost every match because they went over the cap instead of working with him to sort it out.

I don't think I've ever seen a thread that said "I played an APA match and everyone was polite and a gentelman and knew the rules".

My main reason for really not liking the APA is because they bring the rules down to the players as if they just accept that their league is filled with people who are incapable of learning the rules or controlling their bodily motions, instead of using the rules the WPA uses and teaching the players how to play within those rules.

I do the same thing with my kids, my 9 yr old is not big enough to take out the trash, so my 15 yr old does it. That's how the APA treats their players, like they are all 9 and can't handle playing or learnig with the standard rules.

I don't care who plays in the APA or why, but I don't like the fact that people are OK with the rules they use because they are for "amateurs" as the only exuse. Are the APA players happy that the league thinks of them not being able to handle the real rules so they get to play by special olympic rules?

Only time I look at the actuall players in the APA as bad is when they come up and start saying how they play in the APA and they have this cool $300 cue and what rules do you want to play by, straight 8 or APA without even knowing the WPA rules. It's like me as a 5'6 white kid going to a playground in Harlem with my ball and saying "What's up dudes, lets shoot some basketball, I play all the time with my buddies in my back yard".

Do we go to work and get special rules if you're not as good of a worker as the guy next to you? Or do you have to work under the same rules and to the same standards and quality? I'd be insulted if a league I was in fed me wattered down rules because they said I could not handle anything else because I was not a pro.

My son plays in a junior league and at the junior nationals, kids from like 7 and on all play by the same rules, go to the same game amount, no-one is spotted games or balls or has to mark a pocket 4 different ways, or is forgiven fouls becase they are only 8 and can't reach the table too well. You're at the table at that tournament, you are treated like an adult and expected to act that way. Sit, shake hands, be polite and respectful, know the rules. The refs treat the kids properly, as if it was Shane or Efren they were looking at for a foul or Billy the 11 yr old who started playing 4 months ago. Yet the APA is OK with giving their players special rules like we can't handle the game like grown ups. This is probably the best example I can come up with as to why I don't like the APA, if some kids can be treated like adults when they play pool, why can't the APA members be?

 

[Celophanewrap]

.......
I don't care who plays in the APA or why, but I don't like the fact that people are OK with the rules they use because they are for "amateurs" as the only exuse. Are the APA players happy that the league thinks of them not being able to handle the real rules so they get to play by special olympic rules?

Do we go to work and get special rules if you're not as good of a working as the guy next to you? Or do you have to work under the same rules and to the same standards and quality? I'd be insulted if a league I was in fed me wattered down rules because I could not handle anything else because I was not a pro.

I think we are fortunate that you are not an APA player. I doubt that there is any one of us that could deal with your game .

Look, Have you ever done anything competitive other than play pool? I'd be willing to bet that you have, possibly little league football or baseball, maybe throughout high school or even in college. Not a one of those events have rules that are identical to pro rules, they are similar in many ways, but not the same. Do you feel that those games are dumbed down? Have you ever been to a Special Olympics event? Tell them or their parents or care takers that those events are dumbed down, you might have a hard time opening a ketchup bottle ever again.

You don't like The APA, I get that, we all do. But think of it like a radio station that is playing a song you don't like: So you're driving along and the song starts, do you simply change the station or turn off the radio, or do you stop and tell everyone you see that you don't like this song and if they listen to it then they are dumber for having listened to it? and that this song has significantly dumbed down the music industry and the art of music?

Let it go, and I promise that we will never make you play an APA match or play by APA rules.

 

[jeremy8000]

So I can take a shot, look at the table for a second while the balls do their thing, then grab a ball off the table and either move it around or place it back where it was for no reason and it's not a foul as long as the cueball does not hit it?

I don't see how even the APA rules can say that is OK to do. ACCIDENTALLY moving a ball, sure, but what happened was not an accident. The guy grabbed the ball after he hit it.

The general assumption maintained by the league in that instance would be that the player basically acted out of reflex wanting to correct their error, and that the penalty of BIH is only applied in the event that the error had a clearly defined impact on the path of the cue. What you're suggesting is of a completely different, in that it is in essence planned cheating to improve position rather than correct accidental misplacement, and that type of activity would ideally be reported to the league operator in a formal protest, leading to the possibility of much stiffer penalties than BIH (league expulsion).

 

[hang-the-9]

I think we are fortunate that you are not an APA player. I doubt that there is any one of us that could deal with your game .

Look, Have you ever done anything competitive other than play pool? I'd be willing to bet that you have, possibly little league football or baseball, maybe throughout high school or even in college. Not a one of those events have rules that are identical to pro rules, they are similar in many ways, but not the same. Do you feel that those games are dumbed down? Have you ever been to a Special Olympics event? Tell them or their parents or care takers that those events are dumbed down, you might have a hard time opening a ketchup bottle ever again.

You don't like The APA, I get that, we all do. But think of it like a radio station that is playing a song you don't like: So you're driving along and the song starts, do you simply change the station or turn off the radio, or do you stop and tell everyone you see that you don't like this song and if they listen to it then they are dumber for having listened to it? and that this song has significantly dumbed down the music industry and the art of music?

Let it go, and I promise that we will never make you play an APA match or play by APA rules.

I actually do say that about some songs LOL

Only thing I played was tennis in a school team, and far as I know, we did not allow the ball to be called in when it was out because we were in high school.

If the APA were a bunch of kids playing pop warner football and a 100 yard field was too long or some rules were just too tough for them to execute because they are kids, sure, change the rules to help them.

But it's not kids. In fact when I found out that in the first Jr Nationals my son played in as an 12 yr old that the refs would be treating them all up to the level of the pro standards, I was very impressed with that which led me to really appreciate how the BEF and some other pool organizations deal with bringing players into the sport. Through helping them play by the same rules that the WPA uses.

It's not that hard to learn. Don't touch the balls during a game. Learn what an "obvious shot" is, figure out that a "legal shot" is not the same thing as a "called shot" as in the VENA thread about calling safe and having it be counted as a called shot to select a group.

If we can teach the 7 year olds in our league what a push shot is, why can't a league that plays in bars and is filled with those 21 and up?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I know it's crazy but the shooter didn't directly alter the cue ball. Accidental contact of a different ball causing contact with the cue balls path isn't a foul.

Not saying I'm 100% right but it's my interpretation based on page 6, situation 3 on that recently posted document in another thread.

It isn't that it's "crazy". It's wrong. You are not 100% right. You are 0% right. Try re-reading the rule more carefully. You have NO room for interpretation here. The rule is very clear, and you are wrong. Sorry, but that is how it is.

KMRUNOUT

 

[hang-the-9]

The general assumption maintained by the league in that instance would be that the player basically acted out of reflex wanting to correct their error, and that the penalty of BIH is only applied in the event that the error had a clearly defined impact on the path of the cue. What you're suggesting is of a completely different, in that it is in essence planned cheating to improve position rather than correct accidental misplacement, and that type of activity would ideally be reported to the league operator in a formal protest, leading to the possibility of much stiffer penalties than BIH (league expulsion).

If you allow such disctictions when it's OK to grab a ball and not, that just opens up all the arguements we see. What if this "reflex" was faked? What if a player whiffed on a kick and "instictively" grabbed the cueball when it was heading towards a cluster of ball that the opponent wanted broken up? Oh, I "accidentally" hit this ball that was blocking mine or was on the rail, or any other 50 things a player can do to help them in a game.

A rule that just states "if you touch a ball clearly not by accident (meaning not with your cue or something while in the middle of a shot), it's a foul". Having a rule that states it's OK as long as the player really did not mean to do it is how we get all the threads on here where people are confused about what the right call was.

"Well my buddy he threw up on the table, and then his horse kicked over the 8 ball to the side but it did not fall in and he then hit me in the eye so I would not see while he made my ball in with the side of his cue and then made the 8, is that a foul?"

The APA rules specialist would say "well, that depends, was it a Tuesday?".

 

[Skippy27]

So I can take a shot, look at the table for a second while the balls do their thing, then grab a ball off the table and either move it around or place it back where it was for no reason and it's not a foul as long as the cueball does not hit it?

I don't see how even the APA rules can say that is OK to do. ACCIDENTALLY moving a ball, sure, but what happened was not an accident. The guy grabbed the ball after he hit it.

No, it is not a BIH foul as I have now said no less then 3 times. It is very poor sportsmanship and probably would not be tolerated by even your team captain. But no, your opponent will not come to the table with BIH as a result of you being a clown.

I am pretty sure if you print out the WPA or BCA rules along with the APA rules you will see they really are not much difference in them.

The biggest are:
APA - Does not allow you to change to a specialized stick or break yours down for jump/masse shots. You may use a break stick for the break though.
APA - Requires you to mark your 8 ball pocket with an object before shooting it.
APA - Only has 10 BIH fouls and accidently touching another ball that does not come in contact with the cue ball is NOT one of them.
APA - Does not have any special requirements on the rack beyond the standard 8 in middle so you are not required to have one of each on the lower corners as you are in WPA and BCA.

Being the rules are so similar my guess would be your real issue with APA is the sportsmanship part, which is kind of evident in your postings.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

No clue what you are saying here, I did not say there are ONLY 3 ways to get ball in hand. There may be 10 ways, I don't know because I don't play APA, and if someone said you either quit pool or play by APA rules and in APA bars, well, I'll have a cue for sale. Moving the ball accidently during a shot is not a foul, but if you move a ball while others are in motion AFTER a shot, that is a foul.

About forgiving grabbing a ball because it's automatic to a player, that is why the APA rules get made fun of. Is it OK for me to push a ball in a pocket I hung up because I really really want to do it and I could hot help myself? I thought the players were grown ups that could control their movements.

Why are you arguing *APA RULES* if you don't play APA and don't know the rules? What you say is a foul is irrelevant because you are talking about some other set of rules. There is no objective set of pool rules. Some play by BCA rules, WPA, Texas Express, and a huge number of people play by APA rules. NONE of those rules are "the" rules. They are all individual sets of rules. It makes no sense whatsoever to argue objectively about rules. Rules only exist within the context of the system you are playing by. Equally foolish would be to argue that one set of rules is the "real" rules, and other sets are not. I didn't hear this (yet...in this thread, etc, lol).

If I go to court in the US, it is unlikely to be helpful to begin quoting the laws of Bangladesh. Especially if I think the Bangladesh laws are the "real" laws.

Food for (hopefully not too much) thought?

KMRUNOUT