APA regional decision, What's the call?

[cardiac kid]

Frank,

You chose not to interviene in the match. APA considers such interference as LEGAL. Page eight of the 2015 manual states "It is not considered illegal aid to remind a player to mark the pocket when shooting the eight ball or to tell a player a foul has occurred. ANYONE may do so" That is a direct quote.

Lyn

 

[cardiac kid]

The SL2 won, even if she was too dumb to realize it. The game ended when the sl3 scratched while on the 8-ball, which is a straight up loss according to the rule book. Not a foul, but a straight up loss. The book is very clear on this one.

Guys who don't play APA, and don't understand the rules, really shouldn't be commenting.

So true, so true. Why don't players read the rule book? Regardless of the league they play in?

Lyn

 

[hang-the-9]

Frank,

The tournament director should immediately be sanctioned by the APA for incompetence. Losing on a scratch on the 8 ball is a fundemental APA rule no different than the infamous "slop" or play what you make after the break. If the TD did know the rule, then I'd look to see if they were a friend or relation of the skill 3 player. Either way, they should be sanctioned!!!!

Lyn

I don't think it's a question of the ref knowing the rule, the player continued to shoot AND the crowd watching not either of the players or the ref there pointed out the mistake the players made. If the crowd was watching and said "you know, that was a bad hit", would the fact that neither of the players at the table noticed be ignored if it was a regular non-8 ball shot?

Can we now turn to the crowd to get a call made or to learn a rule after the fact? A ref can advise on the rule and explain the rule BEFORE the shot, if the players ask. They do not give out info on their own. Not do they go back and ask "did you know this rule when you shot? If not, we'll just play it over".

Granted this is an APA event so who knows what they view as OK, but it seemed to be a major event for them, which I would think means no outside interference in the games. They should have been advised of the rule after the game.

What if the player kicking did not know that if she scratched she'd lose? She may have just given up ball in hand then, why is one player not knowing the rules more important than another? It's exactly like them not knowing that the game was a loss after the scratch on the 8. If I knew that if I made the ball and scratched or even missed and scratched I would lose, I sure as hell would not be trying for a kick when I know the player can't win even with ball in hand. I'd just hit the cueball into the rail.

She would kick, lose on a scratch, say "well I did not know I would lose" and according to the consensus the ruling would be that she'd have the shot played over. That is no different than the other playing continuing to play after the scratch, not knowing the rules is forgiven.

Replaying the game with both of them knowing the rules was a fair call seeing how not only did the other player not know she won, but the crowd not her coach or other player or a ref point out the fact.

 

[ctyhntr]

He/She asked if this was an APA thing; scratching on the 8-ball is loss of game. I cited WSR for the benefit of Dockter, to show and contrast APA rules I linked earlier.

Based on APA rule set, I believe the TD made a bad call. Now bad calls, and mistakes do happen. Maybe the next step is what options of recourse are available to to this SL2. If this happened to me, I would contact my league rep and tell him the story. If I don't hear back, then I escalate up to the league operator.

Hunter,

On page 9 of the 2015 APA rule book it states in the section on "There are Various Ways to Lose"; "When playing the eight ball you scratch, you lose whether or not you pocket the eight ball". If an APA TD did NOT know this rule, they must not be an APA player! Dumbest ruling I've heard of in years!

Lyn

 

[cardiac kid]

I don't think it's a question of the ref knowing the rule, the player continued to shoot AND the crowd watching not either of the players or the ref there pointed out the mistake the players made. If the crowd was watching and said "you know, that was a bad hit", would the fact that neither of the players at the table noticed be ignored if it was a regular non-8 ball shot?

Can we now turn to the crowd to get a call made or to learn a rule after the fact? A ref can advise on the rule and explain the rule BEFORE the shot.

Granted this is an APA event so who knows what they view as OK, but it seemed to be a major event for them, which I would think means no outside interference in the games. They should have been advised of the rule after the game.

What if the player kicking did not know that if she scratched she'd lose? She may have just given up ball in hand then, why is one player not knowing the rules more important than another? It's exactly like them not knowing that the game was a loss after the scratch on the 8. If I knew that if I made the ball and scratched or even missed and scratched I would lose, I sure as hell would not be trying for a kick when I know the player can't win even with ball in hand. I'd just hit the cueball into the rail.

The game ended the instant the shooter scratched on the eight ball. Period. The rule book rules. If not????? Once the TD was informed of the facts, the TD CHOSE to allow the match to continue. I've seen rulings like this before where the ref or TD did not even know the rules they were supposed to enforce. This was one of the worst rulings I've ever encountered in neary sixty years of playing, Shame on the TD.

Lyn

Only a six year APA player. Keep an APA and BCAPL rule book in my bag.

 

[hang-the-9]

The game ended the instant the shooter scratched on the eight ball. Period. The rule book rules. If not????? Once the TD was informed of the facts, the TD CHOSE to allow the match to continue. I've seen rulings like this before where the ref or TD did not even know the rules they were supposed to enforce. This was one of the worst rulings I've ever encountered in neary sixty years of playing, Shame on the TD.

Lyn

Only a six year APA player. Keep an APA and BCAPL rule book in my bag.

But that is true for every foul, that the penalty happens when it does. And you can't go back and replay the shots you took if you did not know the rule and did not take ball in hand when you should have. I'm sure the ref that made the call knew the rules, but they must have taken the fact into account that the other player continued to play and that the crowd was the source of her being informed of the rule. Does the rulebook state that when a loss happens it over-rides everything that happens after that? What if they played 3 games after this one, are they moot? Or if they played the game but then someone from the crowd said "they lost 20 minutes ago"?

What if that was the first game and the person that fouled lost the match? Then the rule would be the game was lost, nothing after that counts, and they play again from the first game, that person can now win.

I just don't see how this foul, even if it leads to a loss of game, is any more important than any other foul that does not where the player needs to be aware of the rule and there can't be outside interference.

If the player stopped and asked someone "did I win?" to try to figure out the rule, that's OK. Just taking the ball and trying to play and then someone volunteering the info is a bit much.

 

[leto1776]

Why you insist on coming into APA threads and trying to dictate the rules,mis beyond me.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I disagree that it should have been a loss. Same thing as with a foul, if a player fouls you need to call it then, not a shot after. The other player continued the game, therefore the bad hit is no longer in question.

Replaying the game was a good call, the players needed to know the rules when this happened the first time, beginners or not. You don't go into a major tournament and not know the rules.

I don't like the rule where if the 8 ball does not drop and you scratch it's a loss. Makes it too easy to win on a hook if someone is on the 8. Not quite like where people play behind the line on fouls and they make you kick at a ball that's also behind the line instead of spotting it, but close to the same idea.

Maybe in the real pool world this is how it is, however wer're talking about the APA and in the APA the game ends on the foul that the OP described. Anything that happens after doesn't matter, they could go on and play additional games that wouldn't count, the match ended on that scratch according to the APA rules.

 

[DallasHopps]

The rule seems adequately discussed; I just want to know who ended up winning the replay?

 

[Texdance]

The rule seems adequately discussed; I just want to know who ended up winning the replay?

Did the winner win? Did the loser lose? I am curious also.

I am sure by now both parties know the 'lose on any 8 ball scratch' rule.

Good sportsmanship says, if the 3 eventually 'won' the illegal replay, then she should step down in favor of the true legal winner.

At any point in time, the 2 claims the win AND the prize, because she won when the opponent scratched on the 8. Any so-called do-over game has no standing to change the original loss, despite the uninformed TD. The 3 player was not 'taking a bathroom break' from the set, because the set was over. Even I understand this APA rule for loss of game, the rule is clear.

But this is APA, and at level 2 or 3 who knows if they even know their own rules (that TD did not). Hopefully, the corect outcome will be enforced before it is too late.

I can see it now - the game is being replayed, the 2 is shooting at the 8, misses but scratches, exactly like the 3 did previously, then the 3 whips out a rulebook and exclaims 'YOU LOSE". When the 2 complains, the 3 says 'hey, you agreed to replay the game, tough s--t".

 

[dardusm]

APA can have some funny rules. It's been awhile since I've played, but I remember the rule where the incoming shooter shoots the wrong group and I as the opponent can wait until they continue until a time I choose to call them on it. If I don't call them on it, then they would win the game even though they shot the wrong group (fouled) or they become that group. So, I don't think the rules are nearly as cut and dried in the APA concerning this situation. It's possible that because the foul wasn't called and the game continued it isn't a loss even though the game was technically over after the scratch.

 

[Dockter]

APA can have some funny rules. It's been awhile since I've played, but I remember the rule where the incoming shooter shoots the wrong group and I as the opponent can wait until they continue until a time I choose to call them on it. If I don't call them on it, then they would win the game even though they shot the wrong group (fouled) or they become that group. So, I don't think the rules are nearly as cut and dried in the APA concerning this situation. It's possible that because the foul wasn't called and the game continued it isn't a loss even though the game was technically over after the scratch.

So if I'm solids, I miss, you come in and start shooting solids, I can let you shoot them until you are on the 8 then call the foul?

 

[dardusm]

So if I'm solids, I miss, you come in and start shooting solids, I can let you shoot them until you are on the 8 then call the foul?

Yep if I remember correctly. You might have to call the foul before pocketing the last solid. In any case, it's a funny rule and I wouldn't be surprised if continuing to play the game in the OP original scenario would overrule the scratch on the 8 ball.

 

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[Donny Lutz]

scratch on the 8

Not too long ago I was watching an APA match between a couple of low level players. Winner of the match goes to Vegas for the National singles in their level group.
It was a match with two women and one is a skill level three and the other is a skill level two. The three has to win three games and the two goes to two games. The score is hill/hill meaning they each need one more win.

The skill level three is at the table and is on the eight ball but she is hooked and decides to kick at the eight to the pocket that she marked. She does hit the eight ball, doesn't make it, but then scratches.

The level two players picks up the cue ball lines up for a shot on her remaining ball before the eight. She shoots and misses. The level three then says she is taking a bathroom break. While she is gone the level two player is informed by spectators that level three scratched and lost the game.

Understanding that both players are under pressure and probably unsure of what happened. When the level three returned from her break the level two called for the tournament director to sort things out.
When he came over and was informed of what happened, he asked the lever three if she had scratched and she confirmed that indeed scratch. He thought about it for a bit and then made the decision for them to play the game over. Me, not being involved, kept quiet. Was that the right call? Would you have said something?

I've thought for many years that this is a glaring flaw in all 8-ball rules that make a scratch on the 8 a loss.

The rule was originally created when the kitchen was used after every scratch, and if the opponent's 8-ball was in the kitchen, you could just scratch and force them to kick at the 8.

This problem was eliminated by adding a rule that if all the opponent's group of balls or the 8 (when they were on it) the closest ball to the head string (or the 8) would be spotted, and the shooter shoots from the kitchen. When the ball in hand anywhere was introduced decades ago, this rule became obsolete. But the automatic loss for scratching on the 8 remained.

To further confuse things, the introduction of the coin-operated machine created the rule that making the eight in the wrong pocket was an automatic loss, because it cost a dime to get the 8-ball back to finish the game as the original 8-ball rules dictated.

I firmly believe that getting ball in hand after your opponent scratches while shooting the 8 (whether they make the 8 or not) is reward enough...no reason to win automatically. It should be treated just like any other scratch.

In my opinion, the automatic loss by scratching on the 8 is a very old rule that has long outlived its original usefulness.

 

[WoodyMPW]

The OP just likes to get everybody riled up once a year with this scenario:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=341255&highlight=vegas

 

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[justadub]

The OP just likes to get everybody riled up once a year with this scenario:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=341255&highlight=vegas

Wow.......