Fear of Feel

[Colonel]

Interesting thread. I think everyone has to decide what's good for them. Without criticizing aiming systems I don't understand how people that use them can achieve their full potential.

I've had players ask me over the years how I "aim" particular shots & they often seem perplexed when I say I really don't know, because I don't think about it.

For me it's a picture, I see this picture in my mind of the shot being executed, the ball traveling to & then into the hole & the cue ball then traveling to its destination for the next shot. Once I've seen that I just drop on the ball & shoot it.

I don't know if that's considered feel, I'm sure it isn't an aiming system. I liken it to pulling up a file. Perhaps some play well with an aiming system but I feel like this is a game where conscious thought is more of a detriment than anything else as I believe it gets in the way of allowing the subconscious to do its job of directing your body to perform the task at hand. In order to perform well I think a quiet mind is the ideal state & I don't know how you achieve this with the check off list of items an aiming system requires rattling around in your head, but to each his own.

 

[cookie man]

Yes. Whilst worthless on virtually every conceivable level, aiming systems appear to do nothing but add an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy to the process.

Aiming systems give u something to look at.

 

[cfrandy]

Interesting thread. I think everyone has to decide what's good for them. Without criticizing aiming systems I don't understand how people that use them can achieve their full potential.

I've had players ask me over the years how I "aim" particular shots & they often seem perplexed when I say I really don't know, because I don't think about it.

For me it's a picture, I see this picture in my mind of the shot being executed, the ball traveling to & then into the hole & the cue ball then traveling to its destination for the next shot. Once I've seen that I just drop on the ball & shoot it.

I don't know if that's considered feel, I'm sure it isn't an aiming system. I liken it to pulling up a file. Perhaps some play well with an aiming system but I feel like this is a game where conscious thought is more of a detriment than anything else as I believe it gets in the way of allowing the subconscious to do its job of directing your body to perform the task at hand. In order to perform well I think a quiet mind is the ideal state & I don't know how you achieve this with the check off list of items an aiming system requires rattling around in your head, but to each his own.

Absolutely correct! The LESS you need to THINK about when executing a shot, the more likely you will make the shot!

 

[cfrandy]

As I use it, "feel" in aiming simply means any part of the process that isn't accomplished by following a precise robotic "formula", but requires some "estimation" learned through experience. I think all aiming, with or without any system, relies on "feel" to find the final alignment, and also for other parts in the process (like choosing the correct reference alignment, for instance).

pj
chgo

Repeat......

 

[cfrandy]

As I use it, "feel" in aiming simply means any part of the process that isn't accomplished by following a precise robotic "formula", but requires some "estimation" learned through experience. I think all aiming, with or without any system, relies on "feel" to find the final alignment, and also for other parts in the process (like choosing the correct reference alignment, for instance).

pj
chgo

Executing a shot in billiards REQUIRES your body to complete a series of motions. The lever that propels the cue into the cue ball must do so precisely and consistently every time to get positive results. The ONLY way to become precise and consistent every time is with muscle memory. This is where time spent practicing is the key. No aiming system can replace time spent at the pool table practicing the fundamental task of aiming. Likewise, the more you practice using a (any) aiming system, the better you will become in using that system. Stan believes his system of aiming is the best...because he practices with it every minute, and every second at the pool table. Proponents of other aiming systems are no different...their time at the pool table is also spent using the aiming system they promote. Personally, I use to spend all my time practicing GB and fractional aiming. Then I found out for myself that I could develop a better "feel" for the shot, through practice, by using TOI. That is what I like about TOI, it is less a method of aim, then it is a method of developing a "feel" for a shot. It does not matter whether Joe Blow agrees with me because Joe Blow does not spend any time doing what I do, so he cannot be an authority on my method of aiming.
You want "feel"? If your method of aiming is sound (and most are), then practice what you know, until YOU get a FEEL for the shot! Try to remember this: if the shot you must make is a shot you have made a hundred times before then there is NO DOUBT you will make it now! There is NO larger margin of error, then when there is NO DOUBT!

 

[336Robin]

The Simplest of Things

Yes. Whilst worthless on virtually every conceivable level, aiming systems appear to do nothing but add an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy to the process.

Ron,
I understand why you would say that, however what I perceive that would cause you to say that and to a certain degree of correctness I also recognize that there have been some Aiming Systems that have damaged the two words Aiming System.

Not all imaginable assist to the aiming process are so complicated yet they fall into the category denoted by the words... Aiming System.

I for one cant imagine a pivot system, it seems all the rage for last what 10 yrs but to pivot takes me out of the feel zone for the shot line and I am totally lost immediately. So I made sure that was something I didnt do in my system.

My system is basically anything but what has been coined as an aiming system these last 10 yrs and for a lot of the reasons that you dislike them. I think a lot of people share your views but those two words.....Aiming System....have been tainted and are definitely in the way.

 

[336Robin]

The area of feel? how big is it?

As I use it, "feel" in aiming simply means any part of the process that isn't accomplished by following a precise robotic "formula", but requires some "estimation" learned through experience. I think all aiming, with or without any system, relies on "feel" to find the final alignment, and also for other parts in the process (like choosing the correct reference alignment, for instance).

pj
chgo

I agree but would like to add. How big is the area of feel on a Pool Table?

Its a small table top world with 2.25 in balls and 4 in pockets, your eye has to pick up on how to get a round object into hole with little or no clues to go by and a small difference in contact point can mean a big difference by the end of the shot line so this thing we call "feel" is truly a small area,

Now factor in squirt, swerve and distance and you have a real conundrum.

Those things make feel very hard to understand.

For the purposes of new people into the game. I think it would be a good thing to be able to get them a little closer showing them where the feel is so they will stay interested. Hit a million balls is how most of us here learned in one way or another but there isnt a law that says it has to remain this way......at least before you realize that success in pool/billiard games is possible.

To many new people you might as well tell them to throw a marble through a hole the same size as the marble and they feel the game is too difficult. So I think that some help in the way of direction is in order to put them into the area so when they progress they will learn "to feel" how they do what they do otherwise the game has a diminishing appeal to new converts because of difficulty.

 

[336Robin]

The Feel Player

Interesting thread. I think everyone has to decide what's good for them. Without criticizing aiming systems I don't understand how people that use them can achieve their full potential.

I've had players ask me over the years how I "aim" particular shots & they often seem perplexed when I say I really don't know, because I don't think about it.

For me it's a picture, I see this picture in my mind of the shot being executed, the ball traveling to & then into the hole & the cue ball then traveling to its destination for the next shot. Once I've seen that I just drop on the ball & shoot it.

I don't know if that's considered feel, I'm sure it isn't an aiming system. I liken it to pulling up a file. Perhaps some play well with an aiming system but I feel like this is a game where conscious thought is more of a detriment than anything else as I believe it gets in the way of allowing the subconscious to do its job of directing your body to perform the task at hand. In order to perform well I think a quiet mind is the ideal state & I don't know how you achieve this with the check off list of items an aiming system requires rattling around in your head, but to each his own.

Nice Post Colonel,

Thats a real good description of a feel player and what a feel player has learned to look for after doing a lot of playing.

I've been there and found there were things I didnt control so well so I started to look into how I could tighten up my game by tightening up all of the processes to get me closer to the feel and I did that not only within aiming but also in how I play with English.

Your description of the picture that you get when you know you are on and you just play the shot is something a new player has to aspire to.

Now imagine you are a new player trying to achieve that in this day and time. If you cant find someone who has that description for you to go by, you wouldn't even know that much information going in. You might frail at balls for years and still have no idea what to do.

I understand your feeling about the Aiming Systems a lot of people have those same feelings as did myself, I fail to find solace in pivots or any other prescription that puts me off of the shot line but yet the prescription is supposed to get me to the shot line in what I consider a round about way. Yet from what I understand about your end result you are supposed to just see that you are right and trust that...so now its time to play the shot with spin....What now? especially if you have to use Parallel Applied English that squirts the cue ball? That is not figured in so the off line movements have you at Odds to where the Contact Point might be and now you have to figure those allowances and send them to what point? and you are aligned to?

Why not start the process properly aligned to start off with? What is wrong with the Contact Point? Why is Ghost Ball so difficult? Why is feel so hard to find? Could it be that in so learning to make Center Ball Shots that we have disconnected from some of the founding principles of the game abandoning the small area of feel that exists?

I think that we were searching and maybe so.

 

[Colonel]

Nice Post Colonel,

Thats a real good description of a feel player and what a feel player has learned to look for after doing a lot of playing.

I've been there and found there were things I didnt control so well so I started to look into how I could tighten up my game by tightening up all of the processes to get me closer to the feel and I did that not only within aiming but also in how I play with English.

Your description of the picture that you get when you know you are on and you just play the shot is something a new player has to aspire to.

Now imagine you are a new player trying to achieve that in this day and time. If you cant find someone who has that description for you to go by, you wouldn't even know that much information going in. You might frail at balls for years and still have no idea what to do.

I understand your feeling about the Aiming Systems a lot of people have those same feelings as did myself, I fail to find solace in pivots or any other prescription that puts me off of the shot line but yet the prescription is supposed to get me to the shot line in what I consider a round about way. Yet from what I understand about your end result you are supposed to just see that you are right and trust that...so now its time to play the shot with spin....What now? especially if you have to use Parallel Applied English that squirts the cue ball? That is not figured in so the off line movements have you at Odds to where the Contact Point might be and now you have to figure those allowances and send them to what point? and you are aligned to?

Why not start the process properly aligned to start off with? What is wrong with the Contact Point? Why is Ghost Ball so difficult? Why is feel so hard to find? Could it be that in so learning to make Center Ball Shots that we have disconnected from some of the founding principles of the game abandoning the small area of feel that exists?

I think that we were searching and maybe so.

I see your point in new players that are trying to find their way & feel these systems can help them in that beginning stage just as training wheels help someone learn to ride a bike. In the end you eventually take the training wheels off & you just ride & don't think about. I think this process is exactly the same in regards to aiming or lack thereof.

Growing up in my Dad's hall I was given instruction on stance, bridging & other fundamentals first. Then I was given various drills and shots to perform over & over until I could perform them to his satisfaction for several years before I was even allowed to play any type of games. As far as application of English & aiming the input was minimal, I was instructed to use either center ball, high center or inside on 98% of my shots, draw was briefly discussed but it's use discouraged as a staple as well as outside English, explained but it's use discouraged. Aiming was also a quick discussion, contact point being farthest point from the pocket for all shots off center ball axis, how throw worked & adjustments for inside or kill English as my dad called it & believed in for most shots. I was encouraged to experiment with the setup shots I was given to work on, IE hit each with various tip placements on the cueball, high, low, inside & outside & see how it effected outcome, never more than a 1/4 tip with the exception of high center which he encouraged to go as high as possible & trained this in setting the cue ball dead against the rail & shooting it from there to develop that placement.

I understand those such as yourself with your system, Stan with CTE & to a point CJ Wiley with TOI although I don't consider that as an aiming system as much as a style of play, essentially the same style my dad ingrained in me. Players today starting out have so much more available to them to aid in getting a head start compared to what many of us that have played a long time had at our disposal. That's great to start with, but like training wheels you need to eventually take the training wheels off & just play as I will always believe the conscious minds input is detrimental to achieving your full potential in this game.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yes. Whilst worthless on virtually every conceivable level, aiming systems appear to do nothing but add an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy to the process.

Aiming systems aren't a "solution" to aiming by feel, but they aren't worthless either. For many they give structure to an otherwise "shapeless" challenge - a consistent starting place and step-by-step procedure plus visual cues to aid memorization. Even the illusion that "feel" has been eliminated can be a powerful benefit, allowing the subconscious to do its thing without distraction from "fear of feel".

I think a consistent routine and the use of "landmarks" for consistent orientation are useful for all players - we acknowledge that when we advocate pre-shot routines and starting alignments. We all use systems to one degree or another - we just don't all make a religion of it.

pj
chgo

 

[336Robin]

To each his own

That's great to start with, but like training wheels you need to eventually take the training wheels off & just play as I will always believe the conscious minds input is detrimental to achieving your full potential in this game.

Great Post,

I think a lot of people find themselves in your area of belief about the concious mind being in the way and that is because they somehow have managed to connect to the area of feel that they needed to.

In my observation of what a New Player does, its just a crap shoot as to how many get there. With the information we have out there I think that deck is stacked against them.

One of the best exercises that I ever did to prove exactly what you are saying I did by accident. I was playing Pool with a friend and it was getting boring and mundane and i looked up at him and said.....Speed Pool. He said all right and we went full force for an hour solid and played 26 racks in a hour.

That was some of the most interesting game play Ive ever had. We ran to the shot, got down fired the ball in having an idea where we wanted to go but no time to rethink it and it was crazy toward the end how we were getting out. So to support your argument I think Speed Pool is there to help solidify your stance.

Im all for shot clocks and not allowing people to take up everyones time. You should have to come with what you know to an extent and put it to use in a tournament situation not teach yourself the game.

 

[lfigueroa]

Aiming systems aren't a "solution" to aiming by feel, but they aren't worthless either. For many they give structure to an otherwise "shapeless" challenge - a consistent starting place and step-by-step procedure plus visual cues to aid memorization. Even the illusion that "feel" has been eliminated can be a powerful benefit, allowing the subconscious to do its thing without distraction from "fear of feel".

I think a consistent routine and the use of "landmarks" for consistent orientation are useful for all players - we acknowledge that when we advocate pre-shot routines and starting alignments. We all use systems to one degree or another - we just don't all make a religion of it.

pj
chgo

One of the potential problems with an aiming system is that a player can end up making it their primary goal at the expense of their most accurate set up.

If a player is focused on seeing things like points, lines, and visuals it subjugates everything else in their set up. Will they develop a consistent set up? Yes. But it is unlikely that that set up will be the optimal set up for the delivery of a consistent, accurate stroke that makes the OB and CB go where you want them to. That should be the goal, not getting lined for an aiming system.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Interesting thread. I think everyone has to decide what's good for them. Without criticizing aiming systems I don't understand how people that use them can achieve their full potential.

I've had players ask me over the years how I "aim" particular shots & they often seem perplexed when I say I really don't know, because I don't think about it.

For me it's a picture, I see this picture in my mind of the shot being executed, the ball traveling to & then into the hole & the cue ball then traveling to its destination for the next shot. Once I've seen that I just drop on the ball & shoot it.

I don't know if that's considered feel, I'm sure it isn't an aiming system. I liken it to pulling up a file. Perhaps some play well with an aiming system but I feel like this is a game where conscious thought is more of a detriment than anything else as I believe it gets in the way of allowing the subconscious to do its job of directing your body to perform the task at hand. In order to perform well I think a quiet mind is the ideal state & I don't know how you achieve this with the check off list of items an aiming system requires rattling around in your head, but to each his own.

Colonel, you are correct, using an aim system consciously can hamper a player from reaching their full potential.

However, showing them to a player who is struggling and never had an aim system )(and couldn't aim well on their own) can double their pocketing ability--I've been a witness to that. Afterward, they progress even more as they internalize the mind and muscle memory for aim and "just do it".

 

[336Robin]

The Type of Aiming System

One of the potential problems with an aiming system is that a player can end up making it their primary goal at the expense of their most accurate set up.

If a player is focused on seeing things like points, lines, and visuals it subjugates everything else in their set up. Will they develop a consistent set up? Yes. But it is unlikely that that set up will be the optimal set up for the delivery of a consistent, accurate stroke that makes the OB and CB go where you want them to. That should be the goal, not getting lined for an aiming system.

Lou Figueroa

Lou,
In your post I read a concern that I share with you. Aiming Systems up to this point have produced a result in the player that I dont find assists the player very well when it comes to playing with Feel.

However you say it something has to be wrong with that unless of course you want things a bit more difficult when it comes to spinning the ball in. Many of us Natural Players and I do consider myself as such...have learned to align differently for the application of spin and its that set up on the shot that some of these aiming systems do not allow for.

As I studied Aiming over the years I found myself breaking Aiming down into two distinct parts:

1. The Center Ball Part...at which you can learn some top, bottom and begin to use some outside spin to the exact same Center Ball Contact point out to a certain distance then you find out things start to change.

2. The Spin Game Part...in which you finally realize that Cue Ball Induced Throw needs a cancellation application of spin to keep from missing, then you you start to play the real game and learn the Spin and the moves.

From what I've seen of what I call The Modern Aiming Systems that a lot of the game is left out. Some people manage to put it all together but I dont think thats the majority of people who use pivot systems, yet the description of the Natural Game is very lacking indeed and those of us who learned that way dont have much to argue with.

This is what my aiming system and the corresponding Spin Book is about. People can say what they want about what Im doing, I have a thick skin but what Im trying to do is show something on paper that will point people to the kind of game that guys like you and the Colonel understand.

 

[336Robin]

Correct

Colonel, you are correct, using an aim system consciously can hamper a player from reaching their full potential.

However, showing them to a player who is struggling and never had an aim system )(and couldn't aim well on their own) can double their pocketing ability--I've been a witness to that. Afterward, they progress even more as they internalize the mind and muscle memory for aim and "just do it".

Matt,
I was on the phone with someone the other day and this was discussed another part of the discussion was dedicated to....Confusion.....

While your point is valid, very valid there is a level of confusion that goes along with some of the aiming systems that a player has to get past. How does one gauge how much confusion is being promoted and whether or not the betterment of Shot making through the use of some of those systems is actually beneficial in the long run?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

One of the potential problems with an aiming system is that a player can end up making it their primary goal at the expense of their most accurate set up.

On the other hand, many players would have no set up at all without an aiming system. Maybe not optimal, but beats a blank.

pj
chgo

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou,
In your post I read a concern that I share with you. Aiming Systems up to this point have produced a result in the player that I dont find assists the player very well when it comes to playing with Feel.

However you say it something has to be wrong with that unless of course you want things a bit more difficult when it comes to spinning the ball in. Many of us Natural Players and I do consider myself as such...have learned to align differently for the application of spin and its that set up on the shot that some of these aiming systems do not allow for.

As I studied Aiming over the years I found myself breaking Aiming down into two distinct parts:

1. The Center Ball Part...at which you can learn some top, bottom and begin to use some outside spin to the exact same Center Ball Contact point out to a certain distance then you find out things start to change.

2. The Spin Game Part...in which you finally realize that Cue Ball Induced Throw needs a cancellation application of spin to keep from missing, then you you start to play the real game and learn the Spin and the moves.

From what I've seen of what I call The Modern Aiming Systems that a lot of the game is left out. Some people manage to put it all together but I dont think thats the majority of people who use pivot systems, yet the description of the Natural Game is very lacking indeed and those of us who learned that way dont have much to argue with.

This is what my aiming system and the corresponding Spin Book is about. People can say what they want about what Im doing, I have a thick skin but what Im trying to do is show something on paper that will point people to the kind of game that guys like you and the Colonel understand.

Robin, I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. I think if you're a feel player there is no significant difference in setting up for center ball or spin shots.

The set up is 95% the same and whatever minute differences that need to happen to spin a ball in are made automatically in descending to the shot because the player has decided all that before getting into shooting position. The differences, an inch here on the CB vice a half inch there (often much less), are so small it's almost an entirely unconscious adjustment. It's kinda of like hitting different letters on the keyboard. You don't think about moving your fingers, hands, wrists. You just automatically hit the different keys with small automatic adjustments to make sense. Well... most of us do

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

On the other hand, many players would have no set up at all without an aiming system. Maybe not optimal, but beats a blank.

pj
chgo

Yes, most of us have been saying that for a long time and that's why some guys see an automatic improvement when deploying an aiming system. However, though it's an improvement, it'll probably inhibit them from achieving their full potential because they're setting up based on the wrong priority.

Lou Figueroa

 

[336Robin]

Yes I understand..small differences

On the other hand, many players would have no set up at all without an aiming system. Maybe not optimal, but beats a blank.

pj
chgo

Robin, I'm not sure you're understanding what I'm saying. I think if you're a feel player there is no significant difference in setting up for center ball or spin shots.

The set up is 95% the same and whatever minute differences that need to happen to spin a ball in are made automatically in descending to the shot because the player has decided all that before getting into shooting position. The differences, an inch here on the CB vice a half inch there (often much less), are so small it's almost an entirely unconscious adjustment. It's kinda of like hitting different letters on the keyboard. You don't think about moving your fingers, hands, wrists. You just automatically hit the different keys with small automatic adjustments to make sense. Well... most of us do

Lou Figueroa

Exactly Lou, I do understand but a lot of new people to the game really don't. As I suggest and as the Colonel suggested in his post from that perspective that you obviously play. It doesn't seem as much of an adjustment because its small.

Yes its small and our table top world is indeed small so small adjustments are what is needed but those small adjustments are what keep players from ever figuring them out and more accurate description of how to find them I find absolutely necessary to getting people more in line with what players like you, me and the Colonel understand.

It's my contention that the explanation from the Natural Side of things had been virtually non-existent to the point that when someone tries to do that its met with venom because of those magical two words......Aiming System.

Someone needed to come with a more plausible plan to explain and this is what I am trying to do in my book and next book. Its not that I completely disagree with pivot systems because people are doing what they need to in order to try and figure things out.

My thing is... jeez guys this isn't that complicated, just like what you are saying.. but......No one seems to be able to lead some of these folks to the water so to speak so I am taking my stab at it from the Natural Perspective.

I know for a fact that if I don't get the job done that the people on this forum are going to roast me, fry me and barbecue me burnt and talk a lot of smack about it.

So Im trying my best to do the job the best way I can but be prepared for something you haven't seen before that might actually make some sense that falls in line with some of the best practices we already know.

No one can learn a thing without an open mind, that is what this forum is supposed to be about.

We are supposed to be promoting things that work but we spend a lot more time arguing over things that seem to be having dubious results.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yes, most of us have been saying that for a long time and that's why some guys see an automatic improvement when deploying an aiming system. However, though it's an improvement, it'll probably inhibit them from achieving their full potential because they're setting up based on the wrong priority.

Lou Figueroa

This is the same objection I have to TOI - focusing on tip/ball accuracy improves your game, not the nonsense "system". The system actually hides the useful lesson. It's counter-educational - you know less after learning it.

pj
chgo