Fear of Feel

[duckie]

Developing feel takes time. It's a process that requires trail and error, good shots and bad shots.

A new player will have nothing to base feel on. No experinces, no muscle memory.....no nothing.

I just started learning the guitar. Notice I didnt state play. I have no feeling whatsoever on how to play one.

I have to think about making chords, what strings to play, what the beat is and so on. No muscle memory on those movements.

I make great noise however. World class as a matter of fact. It's gonna take time and proper practice.

When I took pool back up some years ago, like learning the guitar, I had to think about where the CB is going, think about getting into the right body position to shoot and so on.

Fast forward to present day after lot of hours at the table, I do longer need to think about those things now just what I want to do with the shot. Lot more feel, lot less thinking.

I watched the Last Waltz not to long ago. I watched the guitar players....one being Eric Clapton. Good God..........that was playing with feel.

No system can develop ones feel for them. It's is the doing, the mistakes, the great shots and so on that is gonna build a solid foundation to use feel as one grows in skill.

 

[336Robin]

How long?

Developing feel takes time. It's a process that requires trail and error, good shots and bad shots.

A new player will have nothing to base feel on. No experinces, no muscle memory.....no nothing.

I just started learning the guitar. Notice I didnt state play. I have no feeling whatsoever on how to play one.

I have to think about making chords, what strings to play, what the beat is and so on. No muscle memory on those movements.

I make great noise however. World class as a matter of fact. It's gonna take time and proper practice.

When I took pool back up some years ago, like learning the guitar, I had to think about where the CB is going, think about getting into the right body position to shoot and so on.

Fast forward to present day after lot of hours at the table, I do longer need to think about those things now just what I want to do with the shot. Lot more feel, lot less thinking.

I watched the Last Waltz not to long ago. I watched the guitar players....one being Eric Clapton. Good God..........that was playing with feel.

No system can develop ones feel for them. It's is the doing, the mistakes, the great shots and so on that is gonna build a solid foundation to use feel as one grows in skill.

So Duckie,

How long did it take you to get your game where it is today now that you have arrived?

In all fairness to Duckie how about you guys that consider yourselves Feel Players...how long did it take you to get to the point where you felt you had become a real player that had some decent game in you? How long did it take you to get to that place?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Interesting thread. I think everyone has to decide what's good for them. Without criticizing aiming systems I don't understand how people that use them can achieve their full potential.

I've had players ask me over the years how I "aim" particular shots & they often seem perplexed when I say I really don't know, because I don't think about it.

For me it's a picture, I see this picture in my mind of the shot being executed, the ball traveling to & then into the hole & the cue ball then traveling to its destination for the next shot. Once I've seen that I just drop on the ball & shoot it.

I don't know if that's considered feel, I'm sure it isn't an aiming system. I liken it to pulling up a file. Perhaps some play well with an aiming system but I feel like this is a game where conscious thought is more of a detriment than anything else as I believe it gets in the way of allowing the subconscious to do its job of directing your body to perform the task at hand. In order to perform well I think a quiet mind is the ideal state & I don't know how you achieve this with the check off list of items an aiming system requires rattling around in your head, but to each his own.

:thumbup2: Good Post.

I was thinking about it a bit last night after I set the laptop down after a last look at AZB & was heading to sleep.

I was not thinking of aiming per say by itself, but just playing in general.

What came to me was whether or not some play the game from really within themselves with 'feel' while others might play the game more from without... having a more regimented, contrived, mechanical more formally learned manner.

I don't know the answer but I definitely think there is some sort of difference that seems to be a basic fundamental difference.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

I see your point in new players that are trying to find their way & feel these systems can help them in that beginning stage just as training wheels help someone learn to ride a bike. In the end you eventually take the training wheels off & you just ride & don't think about. I think this process is exactly the same in regards to aiming or lack thereof.

Growing up in my Dad's hall I was given instruction on stance, bridging & other fundamentals first. Then I was given various drills and shots to perform over & over until I could perform them to his satisfaction for several years before I was even allowed to play any type of games. As far as application of English & aiming the input was minimal, I was instructed to use either center ball, high center or inside on 98% of my shots, draw was briefly discussed but it's use discouraged as a staple as well as outside English, explained but it's use discouraged. Aiming was also a quick discussion, contact point being farthest point from the pocket for all shots off center ball axis, how throw worked & adjustments for inside or kill English as my dad called it & believed in for most shots. I was encouraged to experiment with the setup shots I was given to work on, IE hit each with various tip placements on the cueball, high, low, inside & outside & see how it effected outcome, never more than a 1/4 tip with the exception of high center which he encouraged to go as high as possible & trained this in setting the cue ball dead against the rail & shooting it from there to develop that placement.

I understand those such as yourself with your system, Stan with CTE & to a point CJ Wiley with TOI although I don't consider that as an aiming system as much as a style of play, essentially the same style my dad ingrained in me. Players today starting out have so much more available to them to aid in getting a head start compared to what many of us that have played a long time had at our disposal. That's great to start with, but like training wheels you need to eventually take the training wheels off & just play as I will always believe the conscious minds input is detrimental to achieving your full potential in this game.

:thumbup2::thumbup2::thumbup2:

 

[ENGLISH!]

I was going to quote Lou & post some of the following but decided to post it more as just me sort of thinking out loud as either some food for thought or as a mouthwash to be rinsed & spit. Do with it which ever you choose.

I think the word 'feel' is being used entirely differently in certain cases. I think I've even done it myself in a sense.

Who knows perhaps there are complete & separate parameters of the one 'entity' that we are assigning the term 'feel'.

There are those of us that seem to have it & 'understand' it, even if we can't accurately & completely define it or explain it. Perhaps because one of the parameters of it or so very deep in one's being or subconscious that their conscious as never really met nor seen it face to face but have only caught quick glimpses of it moving quickly from shadow to shadow where it can't be seen or even recognized as who or what it is.:wink:

Some seem to think that it takes HAMB to acquire feel. I disagree. I've seen some rather young players that have & play by feel & do so very well.

Some seem to think that it can be taught or brought along by a method or guidelines. I'm not sure that is likely or even possible.

One may have the ability to use 'feel' from the get go. It may just need a tad bit of refinement to be utilized well for a given purpose.

While others may have to wait for it to befall upon them from who knows where or when that comes.

And yet others may never be able to truly play be 'feel'.

Now by Patrick's 'definition' everyone plays by 'feel' & I understand what he means by that as there is that subconscious that ultimately makes the decision.

But one that goes through a process of a conscious & defined & an acknowledge system or method is not playing by the other parameter of 'feel' that I think some of are talking about.

At least not to me.

Best 2 All,
Rick

 

[336Robin]

How long?

I was going to quote Lou & post some of the following but decided to post it more as just me sort of thinking out loud as either some food for thought or as a mouthwash to be rinsed & spit. Do with it which ever you choose.

I think the word 'feel' is being used entirely differently in certain cases. I think I've even done it myself in a sense.

Who knows perhaps there are complete & separate parameters of the one 'entity' that we are assigning the term 'feel'.

There are those of us that seem to have it & 'understand' it, even if we can't accurately & completely define it or explain it. Perhaps because one of the parameters of it or so very deep in one's being or subconscious that their conscious as never really met nor seen it face to face but have only caught quick glimpses of it moving quickly from shadow to shadow where it can't be seen or even recognized as who or what it is.:wink:

Some seem to think that it takes HAMB to acquire feel. I disagree. I've seen some rather young players that have & play by feel & do so very well.

Some seem to think that it can be taught or brought along by a method or guidelines. I'm not sure that is likely or even possible.

One may have the ability to use 'feel' from the get go. It may just need a tad bit of refinement to be utilized well for a given purpose.

While others may have to wait for it to befall upon them from who knows where or when that comes.

And yet others may never be able to truly play be 'feel'.

Now by Patrick's 'definition' everyone plays by 'feel' & I understand what he means by that as there is that subconscious that ultimately makes the decision.

But one that goes through a process of a conscious & defined & an acknowledge system or method is not playing by the other parameter of 'feel' that I think some of are talking about.

At least not to me.

Best 2 All,
Rick

I have read and appreciate your input Rick, so I will ask you the same question as I did Duckie and everyone else.

How long do you think it took you to reach the pinnacle of your game where you believe you are a player to contend with?

 

[duckie]

So Duckie,

How long did it take you to get your game where it is today now that you have arrived?

In all fairness to Duckie how about you guys that consider yourselves Feel Players...how long did it take you to get to the point where you felt you had become a real player that had some decent game in you? How long did it take you to get to that place?

A life time.....that would be 61 years......

its a zen thing......

 

[336Robin]

Thats a long time

A life time.....that would be 61 years......

its a zen thing......

Duckie,
I appreciate your honesty, you know thats quite a long time when you think about it. You promote the Cranfield arrow and Ghost Ball Contact Patch because it works for you and is free and I understand that.

A few things that I notice that arent working for people is they dont have the time to give the game so they want to get things a little closer to the cuff when it comes to learning to appreciate the game and excel at the game so they are looking for instruction to get them there. That is what made the first Aiming Systems popular. They were a way for people to learn to make Center Ball shots with a high regularity.

So while the Cranfield Arrow and Ghost Ball Contact Patch and Hit a Million Balls may have worked for you because it was free, what might work for others a little better is a way for them to get there a little sooner.

I don't think its true at all that you have to use just the Patch and Hit a Million Balls to get there...after all what you are doing is an aiming system just as much as my system or anyone else's system. Its a system that you are familiar with and apparently very vocal about and happy with.

The one requirement you have to have in order to move on with your game and make it better is to be open to working with new ideas otherwise it might take a much longer time. I view it as a process of elimination. If you try one thing and it doesn't work well then you back up and try another until you gain the understanding that you need to make it work.

That understanding is usually the Contact Point. The Contact Point is truth in pool provided you give the ball enough room to fit in the pocket with it. I find very little wrong with the Contact Point that gets the job done.

 

[SmoothStroke]

I don’t think you can teach someone to think or play by feel.
I am 100% positive you can teach them to look at things differently.
I am 100% positive you can pull the feel and the natural out in a player.

After teaching, stance, aim, stroke, whatever it may be, there are methods to bring out the feel in a player, where the feel rises above the mental side. The brain goes on the back burner and the natural stands above. When they feel it, it's a smile from ear to ear, yet they are thinking through every aspect of a shot. You can teach them how to create themselves, their style, rhythms, presence, making it their own, looking and feeling like they were born doing it, all natural. You can bring out their natural and feel.

We put the brain on the shoulders and the feel in the head.

I can spot lesson taught players 1,000,00 miles away 99% of the time. I am not impressed at what I see. Many of the players are working too hard to play the game; you see it in their face, approach, stroke, rythms, and their overall demeanor at the table. THEY ARE TIGHT.

It's not that difficult.

I think of everything there is on a shot, I am a strong feel player.

When you come to play bring your straight stroke.

Sincerely: SS

 

[Bigb'scues]

I don’t think you can teach someone to think or play by feel.
I am 100% positive you can teach them to look at things differently.
I am 100% positive you can pull the feel and the natural out in a player.

After teaching, stance, aim, stroke, whatever it may be, there are methods to bring out the feel in a player, where the feel rises above the mental side. The brain goes on the back burner and the natural stands above. When they feel it, it's a smile from ear to ear, yet they are thinking through every aspect of a shot. You can teach them how to create themselves, their style, rhythms, presence, making it their own, looking and feeling like they were born doing it, all natural. You can bring out their natural and feel.

We put the brain on the shoulders and the feel in the head.

I can spot lesson taught players 1,000,00 miles away 99% of the time. I am not impressed at what I see. Many of the players are working too hard to play the game; you see it in their face, approach, stroke, rythms, and their overall demeanor at the table. THEY ARE TIGHT.

It's not that difficult.

I think of everything there is on a shot, I am a strong feel player.

When you come to play bring your straight stroke.

Sincerely: SS

I couldn't agree more SS......especially seeing what you did with Angelo ...kid had less
Natural talent and feel than a squirrel (and they live in trees..lol). But you were able to explain the feelings , the sound the balls make and all the other important subtleties one needs to be aware if in order to start feeling the game. Emily is another story all together. Lol

 

[336Robin]

You cant eliminate Feel its permanent

I don’t think you can teach someone to think or play by feel.

I don't think you have to teach them. Feel is a natural part of the game all you have to do is get them close and they will see what the need to do and all you did is give them a good view of it.
I am 100% positive you can teach them to look at things differently.
I am 100% positive you can pull the feel and the natural out in a player.

After teaching, stance, aim, stroke, whatever it may be, there are methods to bring out the feel in a player, where the feel rises above the mental side. The brain goes on the back burner and the natural stands above. When they feel it, it's a smile from ear to ear, yet they are thinking through every aspect of a shot. You can teach them how to create themselves, their style, rhythms, presence, making it their own, looking and feeling like they were born doing it, all natural. You can bring out their natural and feel.

We put the brain on the shoulders and the feel in the head.

I can spot lesson taught players 1,000,00 miles away 99% of the time. I am not impressed at what I see. Many of the players are working too hard to play the game; you see it in their face, approach, stroke, rythms, and their overall demeanor at the table. THEY ARE TIGHT.

It's not that difficult.

I think of everything there is on a shot, I am a strong feel player.

When you come to play bring your straight stroke.

Sincerely: SS

I also firmly believe there is no way you can take the feel out pool. There is going to be feel as long as pool is played. To try and make things completely objective is to try and subtract feel and you might can try but the minute you start playing English...there it is again, or just delivering the straight stroke there it is again.

Especially if you are trying to make the feel available and can tell them what to look for.....there is no way you can stop the feel. The feel is there and if you are a feel player you know that its undeniable.

 

[duckie]

Ever hear anyone says they are going to play some walking?

Its usually, I'm going for a walk.

Could you state that "I'm going for some pool?" Are do you state "I'm going to play some pool"......there is a difference.

Everything I have done in my past, the past experiences has lead me to this point in my life. I don't think I would be as good a player as I am now with those past experiences.

I use my vision different than others because of riding and racing motorcycles.

I understand the importance of body position from riding.

Being a past test engineer, I can break things to its components. I can see flaws in "experiments, test setups".

Surveying before GPS, gave me a understanding of angles, distance, elevations. Going from constructions plans to final sub division. and other things.

Playing racquetball I learn about the human body and human performance.

From crashing a few times on my motorcycles, I learned about how the body heals and works.

The list goes on.

This is why I stated it has taken 61 years of my life to get to this point of playing well in pool. To understanding myself well enough to know what works for me and what doesn't.

There is not a system on the earth that could have given me those experiences that have enhanced my pool playing.

 

[8pack]

Ever hear anyone says they are going to play some walking?

Its usually, I'm going for a walk.

Could you state that "I'm going for some pool?" Are do you state "I'm going to play some pool"......there is a difference.

Everything I have done in my past, the past experiences has lead me to this point in my life. I don't think I would be as good a player as I am now with those past experiences.

I use my vision different than others because of riding and racing motorcycles.

I understand the importance of body position from riding.

Being a past test engineer, I can break things to its components. I can see flaws in "experiments, test setups".

Surveying before GPS, gave me a understanding of angles, distance, elevations. Going from constructions plans to final sub division. and other things.

Playing racquetball I learn about the human body and human performance.

From crashing a few times on my motorcycles, I learned about how the body heals and works.

The list goes on.

This is why I stated it has taken 61 years of my life to get to this point of playing well in pool. To understanding myself well enough to know what works for me and what doesn't.

There is not a system on the earth that could have given me those experiences that have enhanced my pool playing.

And it shouldn't.:smile:
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please..

 

[cfrandy]

A life time.....that would be 61 years......

its a zen thing......

Really? I was at my prime when I was in my 20's, that was back in the 70's! I still play pretty good, but nothing like back then!

 

[duckie]

I know it seems backwards, but I play better now than back when I was 20, also in the 70's. I just didn't take it as seriously then as I do now.

I do wonder how a persons life experiences influence their approach and understanding of the games of pool.

Take 336Robin. It appears we both returned to pool at the same time after a long lay off. Yet, we both have a difference approach to the game. One isn't better than another, just different.

Take all the other approaches to the game that there are. CJ for example. He has found that TOI works for him based on his past experiences. Thats great, nothing wrong with him using what ever works for him based on his past experiences.

The pivot guys use what works for them based on past experiences.

A person must used past experiences to build. Since everyone will have different life experiences, there will be as many ways to do something as there are people.

If you never raced a motorcycle or even ridden one fast on a tight, twisty mountain road, you may not understand how I use my vision different. Another motorcyclist would.

See, I am getting better as I get older.......like fine wine......

Not too many 61 years old out there on a 180 HP R1 bike doing track days.......adrenaline .......the best drug there is.

 

[SmoothStroke]

I couldn't agree more SS......especially seeing what you did with Angelo ...kid had less
Natural talent and feel than a squirrel (and they live in trees..lol). But you were able to explain the feelings , the sound the balls make and all the other important subtleties one needs to be aware if in order to start feeling the game. Emily is another story all together. Lol

That's funny, the squirrel, he put in the time, he earned his rank.
I hope she is in beast mode and not going all Gilbert on me, we will soon see.

Thought you fell off the flat earth.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I don’t think you can teach someone to think or play by feel.
I am 100% positive you can teach them to look at things differently.
I am 100% positive you can pull the feel and the natural out in a player.

After teaching, stance, aim, stroke, whatever it may be, there are methods to bring out the feel in a player, where the feel rises above the mental side. The brain goes on the back burner and the natural stands above. When they feel it, it's a smile from ear to ear, yet they are thinking through every aspect of a shot. You can teach them how to create themselves, their style, rhythms, presence, making it their own, looking and feeling like they were born doing it, all natural. You can bring out their natural and feel.

We put the brain on the shoulders and the feel in the head.

I can spot lesson taught players 1,000,00 miles away 99% of the time. I am not impressed at what I see. Many of the players are working too hard to play the game; you see it in their face, approach, stroke, rythms, and their overall demeanor at the table. THEY ARE TIGHT.

It's not that difficult.

I think of everything there is on a shot, I am a strong feel player.

When you come to play bring your straight stroke.

Sincerely: SS

:thumbup2: :thumbup2: :thumbup2:

 

[GARY LLOYD]

The Process...

I haven't read through all of the post yet but want to add a little food for thought...

The age old argument is system or feel? 2 camps both dead set they are right. Well in my opinion they are right. Both of them. I think it is a process we all go through. The way I explain it to the players I work with is... When I started playing and had no experience I definitely aimed my shots. As I progressed and moved off of center ball, but more importantly gained experience and knowledge, I aimed less and felt more. To the point where it is "all" feel now when I am dead in gear. The experience, trials and errors, made and missed balls, etc. now let me feel the game like a dancer feels the dance or a musician feels the music or instrument.

I honestly think both camps are correct as... We start off aiming until we acquire the knowledge and experience to allow us feel the shots completely.

Those who hinder the process in my opinion will never reach there true and full potential in our sport.

Have a great day everyone and go hit some balls...!!!

 

[cfrandy]

I don’t think you can teach someone to think or play by feel.
I am 100% positive you can teach them to look at things differently.
I am 100% positive you can pull the feel and the natural out in a player.

After teaching, stance, aim, stroke, whatever it may be, there are methods to bring out the feel in a player, where the feel rises above the mental side. The brain goes on the back burner and the natural stands above. When they feel it, it's a smile from ear to ear, yet they are thinking through every aspect of a shot. You can teach them how to create themselves, their style, rhythms, presence, making it their own, looking and feeling like they were born doing it, all natural. You can bring out their natural and feel.

We put the brain on the shoulders and the feel in the head.

I can spot lesson taught players 1,000,00 miles away 99% of the time. I am not impressed at what I see. Many of the players are working too hard to play the game; you see it in their face, approach, stroke, rythms, and their overall demeanor at the table. THEY ARE TIGHT.

It's not that difficult.

I think of everything there is on a shot, I am a strong feel player.

When you come to play bring your straight stroke.

Sincerely: SS

"Thinking" is not "feeling". The more you have to "think" about executing a shot, the less likely you will ever have a "feel" for the shot! This is why it is so important to "wire" your brain circuitry so that there is very little to think about. "Think long, think wrong"!
In the beginning, you can only teach the fundamental skills to a player. Once learned, you can then teach advanced skills and drills that will allow the player to develop his OWN "feel" for the shot. "Feel" comes from the memory banks of the unconscious mind...if you made the shot before, you will certainly have a feel for making it again. For example, if I burned you with the lit end of a cigarette, you would have a "feel" for that burn if I tried to burn you again.

 

[336Robin]

Think first feel second

"Thinking" is not "feeling". The more you have to "think" about executing a shot, the less likely you will ever have a "feel" for the shot! This is why it is so important to "wire" your brain circuitry so that there is very little to think about. "Think long, think wrong"!
In the beginning, you can only teach the fundamental skills to a player. Once learned, you can then teach advanced skills and drills that will allow the player to develop his OWN "feel" for the shot. "Feel" comes from the memory banks of the unconscious mind...if you made the shot before, you will certainly have a feel for making it again. For example, if I burned you with the lit end of a cigarette, you would have a "feel" for that burn if I tried to burn you again.

Any time you think on anything that's just a first step. The divisions of estimation that you can carry something go on and are endless and there is no way that you see those small divisions or know for sure that you can deliver to them. That is where feel comes in.

Feel is undeniable, unpreventable and inevitable.

You have to feel the distance you send the cue ball out of your stroke no matter how you aim and estimate.

If you never think about what you do, you would be someone I would consider gambling with and I haven't gambled for a significant amount in a long time.

I would think that gamblers would be the prime example of people who are careful and thoughtful of what they do at the table. Feel players do gamble and they surely think about what they are doing.