Is there a logic to choosing shaft diameter? (newbie)

azsportpilot said:
hello

please excuse the ignorance if this question seems..... stupid

i am a beginner player, been playing for years but not often and not well

always used a house cue, sometimes it even had a tip :)

i am looking at buying a cue this week and it seems the "standard" is a 13 inch shaft though many are offered with a 12.75, 12.50, 12.25 inch option and sometimes even smaller

any recommendations (other than try before you buy) as this is not an option with internet sales

any help would be appreciated
thanks
john
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Very cool, I just started last summer.
There's a lot that can be discussed about this situation. Each question and answer will begat 2 or 3 more. There's a lot to learn and lots of good folk who'll share their experience and insight.

But as soon as you said "Internet sale", I thought "Seyberts".

Go to their website, find their page listing terms and policies and see that they have a 60 day return policy for cues that have been chalked/hit. That's an option that doesn't put you in a "must decide before I even know what works" situation. They've always been very friendly honest and upfront with me when I've called or visited. I ended up getting a used beat cue from a teammate and when I showed it to them, they told me all about it and what to do and not do for shaft and tip care, storage etc. They cater to all levels but I think they make a special effort to get the newbies started well.

The other thing Id advise is get something with a common thread pattern so you have options for an aftermarket shaft upgrade. (When I started I had never even seen a 2 piece cue except on espn. After a few months with a 13mm I was ready to try a skinny LD shaft.)

Don't crack that new stick over your knee...(you will be tempted to do so :smile:)
 
xXGEARXx said:
A thinner shaft should give more spin. The impact point is smaller and you can apply the same force at the same spot with a smaller tip. Smaller surface area with force is greater than larger surface area with the same force. Look at a pencil. Sharpen it and it is easy to poke through paper. Keep it flat and try it.
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Sorry, this isn't true.

pj
chgo

P.S. I see Bob cleared up the miscommunication about stick deflection vs. CB deflection. That's why I was careful to say "CB deflection" in my earlier reply.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Sorry, this isn't true.

pj
chgo

P.S. I see Bob cleared up the miscommunication about stick deflection vs. CB deflection. That's why I was careful to say "CB deflection" in my earlier reply.
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Come on! That is physics. P = F/A


...."Pressure of solid on a solid

When you apply a force to a solid object, the pressure is defined as the force applied divided by the area of application. The equation for pressure is:

P = F/A

where

P is the pressure
F is the applied force
A is the surface area where the force is applied
F/A is F divided by A

For example, if you push on an object with your hand with a force of 20 pounds, and the area of your hand is 10 square inches, then the pressure you are exerting is 20 / 10 = 2 pounds per square inch.

Pressure equals Force divided by Area

You can see that for a given force, if the surface area is smaller, the pressure will be greater. If you use a larger area, you are spreading out the force, and the pressure (or force per unit area) becomes smaller...." (http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/pressure.htm#.VSNhp4r3bCQ)
 
azsportpilot said:
hello

please excuse the ignorance if this question seems..... stupid

i am a beginner player, been playing for years but not often and not well

always used a house cue, sometimes it even had a tip :)

i am looking at buying a cue this week and it seems the "standard" is a 13 inch shaft though many are offered with a 12.75, 12.50, 12.25 inch option and sometimes even smaller

any recommendations (other than try before you buy) as this is not an option with internet sales

any help would be appreciated
thanks
john
Click to expand...

It's pretty much impossible to figure out what shaft you'd want to play with without trying. It has to match how you play. Not only diameter but tip and deflection properties all come into play.

If you want to try a LD shaft for cheap that feels like a solid shaft and has a good stock tip, Players HXT, although I think that may be renamed now to PureX. It comes in a 12.75 size which won't feel odd if you are used to a 13mm, and also does not have such low deflection that you will need to adjust aiming that much.
 
Sure but the surface area of contact is not smaller. Which makes the formulas and your argument a moot point.

A nickel radius surface contact area is the same for a 10 mm or a 13 mm shaft. If the radius is the same, the area of contact is the same.

A dime radius surface contact area has the same characteristic. A dime radius at 10 mm has the same contact area as a dime radius at 13 mm

There is a small (I mean very small) difference between contact area between a nickel and dime radius.

Search the threads, this has been covered before, with some excellent cad drawings and measurements.

As for your experience, perhaps you are hitting the target area on the cueball more precisely (where you intended) with a thinner shaft. That could explain your observation.



xXGEARXx said:
Come on! That is physics. P = F/A


...."Pressure of solid on a solid

When you apply a force to a solid object, the pressure is defined as the force applied divided by the area of application. The equation for pressure is:

P = F/A

where

P is the pressure
F is the applied force
A is the surface area where the force is applied
F/A is F divided by A

For example, if you push on an object with your hand with a force of 20 pounds, and the area of your hand is 10 square inches, then the pressure you are exerting is 20 / 10 = 2 pounds per square inch.

Pressure equals Force divided by Area

You can see that for a given force, if the surface area is smaller, the pressure will be greater. If you use a larger area, you are spreading out the force, and the pressure (or force per unit area) becomes smaller...." (http://www.school-for-champions.com/science/pressure.htm#.VSNhp4r3bCQ)
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xXGEARXx said:
Come on! That is physics.
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You're misinterpreting it's applicability and it's (theoretical) effect.

Applicability: In fact, a smaller tip doesn't make a smaller contact area. They both only contact the CB with a fraction of their total area.

Effect: Even if a smaller tip did (theoretically) make a smaller contact area, it's the same amount of total force. Applying it to a smaller area wouldn't change its effect on the CB. You're not trying to puncture anything.

pj
chgo
 
Are you planning on breaking with this cue too? If so, I wouldn't go under 12.50.

Personally I would start at 13mm. If it feels fat you can always have it turned down. If you don't know cue repairmen in your area go to a local pool hall and just ask whoever is working the counter if they know any. There is normally a couple good ones around and it's normally pretty cheap to have done. If you go to small and hate the feel there is nothing you can do about it.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
You're misinterpreting it's applicability and it's (theoretical) effect.

Applicability: In fact, a smaller tip doesn't make a smaller contact area. They both only contact the CB with a fraction of their total area.

Effect: Even if a smaller tip did (theoretically) make a smaller contact area, it's the same amount of total force. Applying it to a smaller area wouldn't change its effect on the CB. You're not trying to puncture anything.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
First of all it is different. I don't care if we have to go down to the atomic level (which we wouldn't). The contact points are different. Second of all, you obviously have no idea about math or physics. I just showed you the formula. I even went as far as to give their explanation. You then throw out, in your last paragraph, this:

"Effect: Even if a smaller tip did (theoretically) make a smaller contact area, it's the same amount of total force."

No kidding it's the same force! It CHANGES due to the surface area. Did you even read what I posted? I was referring to punching paper as an illustration. No shit we aren't punching a hole in a cue ball. The force exerted using the same mechanics will increase with a smaller surface area. Your last statement is ridiculous.

Granted, maybe I am ridiculous for arguing this point, but the science is solid. Whether you want to say it is neglible for this application or not may be valid to an extent. I am sure the force isn't A LOT, but reading your above statement is just flat wrong.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You're misinterpreting it's applicability and it's (theoretical) effect.

Applicability: In fact, a smaller tip doesn't make a smaller contact area. They both only contact the CB with a fraction of their total area.

Effect: Even if a smaller tip did (theoretically) make a smaller contact area, it's the same amount of total force. Applying it to a smaller area wouldn't change its effect on the CB. You're not trying to puncture anything.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
First of all it is different. I don't care if we have to go down to the atomic level (which we wouldn't). The contact points are different. Second of all, you obviously have no idea about math or physics. I just showed you the formula. I even went as far as to give their explanation. You then throw out, in your last paragraph, this:

"Effect: Even if a smaller tip did (theoretically) make a smaller contact area, it's the same amount of total force."

No kidding it's the same force! It CHANGES due to the surface area. Did you even read what I posted? I was referring to punching paper as an illustration. No shit we aren't punching a hole in a cue ball. The force exerted using the same mechanics will increase with a smaller surface area. Your last statement is ridiculous.

Granted, maybe I am ridiculous for arguing this point, but the science is solid. Whether you want to say it is neglible for this application or not may be valid to an extent. I am sure the force isn't A LOT (of course, I don't know what "A LOT" is) but reading your above statement is just flat wrong.

**Sorry for the double post. I hate using an iPhone to post and edit. You can see what I added. Ugh...."
 
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xXGEARXx said:
The force exerted using the same mechanics will increase with a smaller surface area.
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The total amount of force is the same. Concentrating it in a smaller area doesn't change its effect on the CB.

Anyway, this part hasn't changed: different tip sizes don't have different sized contact areas.

...the science is solid.
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Of course. Your understanding of it isn't.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The total amount of force is the same. Concentrating it in a smaller area doesn't change its effect on the CB.

Anyway, this part hasn't changed: different tip sizes don't have different sized contact areas.


Of course. Your understanding of it isn't.

pj
chgo
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OMG. BS!!!

Let's just finish with this one.

Equal shafts (grain, structure, etc., NOT diameter) and equal tips using equal force-

If I crash into the cue ball with center English, the tip will compress. If I do this with a 10MM tip versus a 13MM tip, the compression is different! The force exerted over that area is different! It is different because the same exact stroke is transferred from a 10MM shaft and tip to a 13MM shaft and tip! The force at its striking points can be NO greater than its given surface area. It is simply different and physics dictates this, not me!

:/
 
azsportpilot said:
hello

please excuse the ignorance if this question seems..... stupid

i am a beginner player, been playing for years but not often and not well

always used a house cue, sometimes it even had a tip :)

i am looking at buying a cue this week and it seems the "standard" is a 13 inch shaft though many are offered with a 12.75, 12.50, 12.25 inch option and sometimes even smaller

any recommendations (other than try before you buy) as this is not an option with internet sales

any help would be appreciated
thanks
john
Click to expand...

Youre going to find my reccomendations different than everyone elses.

Ive been studying squirt, swerve, its effects on the shot making process and using different shafts.

In reality I find that to whippy a shaft can lead to unpredictability due to deflection/bending of the shaft itself so what ever you do dont go way small.

For a person who is just starting to play or doesnt play well you want complete predictability in a shaft.

I would use a 13mm shaft and I would learn to play with it. The differences in allowances for it and smaller shafts arent that much on shots in which you use most of your English up to around 4 diamonds of distance from the cue ball to the object ball.

Use FHE to apply English there are plenty of videos about the use of on YouTube by Dr. Dave. Have lots of fun.
 
azsportpilot said:
i am looking at buying a cue this week and it seems the "standard" is a 13 inch shaft though many are offered with a 12.75, 12.50, 12.25 inch option and sometimes even smaller

any recommendations
Click to expand...
Shaft diameter is mostly a personal preference sort of thing. For example, if you use mostly a closed bridge, you might prefer a shaft of a certain size and taper.

However, as others have pointed out, a smaller-diameter shaft will generally create less cue ball deflection (squirt). For more info, see: low-deflection (AKA LD or low-squirt) shafts. This does offer some advantages (although, there also are potential disadvantages for some people).

For more info related to shaft size, see the cue tip size and shape resource page.

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
xXGEARXx said:
If I crash into the cue ball with center English, the tip will compress. If I do this with a 10MM tip versus a 13MM tip, the compression is different! The force exerted over that area is different! It is different because the same exact stroke is transferred from a 10MM shaft and tip to a 13MM shaft and tip! The force at its striking points can be NO greater than its given surface area. It is simply different and physics dictates this, not me!
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Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. If the same total force is applied to the CB, but over a slightly different area (assuming for argument's sake that's what happens), how does some of it get lost with a larger contact area? Where does that "lost" force go if not into the CB? If it goes into the CB, what work does it do?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. If the same total force is applied to the CB, but over a slightly different area (assuming for argument's sake that's what happens), how does some of it get lost with a larger contact area? Where does that "lost" force go if not into the CB? If it goes into the CB, what work does it do?

pj
chgo
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I just showed you the formula. Really???
 
xXGEARXx said:
I just showed you the formula. Really???
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If you understand it, you should be able to describe it in your own words.

If two tips produce the same overall force, how is some of it lost in one case and not the other? If it isn't lost, what work does it do?

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
xXGEARXx said:
If I crash into the cue ball with center English, the tip will compress. If I do this with a 10MM tip versus a 13MM tip, the compression is different! The force exerted over that area is different! It is different because the same exact stroke is transferred from a 10MM shaft and tip to a 13MM shaft and tip! The force at its striking points can be NO greater than its given surface area. It is simply different and physics dictates this, not me!
Click to expand...
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense. If the same total force is applied to the CB, but over a slightly different area (assuming for argument's sake that's what happens), how does some of it get lost with a larger contact area? Where does that "lost" force go if not into the CB? If it goes into the CB, what work does it do?
Click to expand...
If everything is the same in the comparison (cue weight, tip hardness, cue speed, tip shape, etc.), and the only thing that is different is the shaft/tip diameter, I agree with PJ that the size of the contact patch and the total force (or more precisely, the total impulse) should be identical.

Now, if the contact patch size were smaller (e.g., due to tip shape and hardness differences), and if the speed delivered to the CB were still the same, the total force (or more precisely, the total impulse) delivered to the CB would still be the same. What what would be different is the pressure (force per area) over the contact patch (during the contact time), but this really has no affect on the shot.

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
Patrick Johnson said:
If you understand it, you should be able to describe it in your own words.

If two tips produce the same overall force, how is some of it lost in one case and not the other? If it isn't lost, what work does it do?

pj
chgo
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It is not lost! It is TRANSFERRED over a greater surface area or lesser. Meaning same pressure exerted will yield a greater or lesser force based on what I took the time to post and show you. Physics is right. This is repeatable and solid.

Less surface area means the energy will be greater. Like the pencil example I gave you to begin with. Remember that?
 
dr_dave said:
If everything is the same in the comparison (cue weight, tip hardness, cue speed, tip shape, etc.), and the only thing that is different is the shaft/tip diameter, I agree with PJ that the size of the contact patch and the total force (or more precisely, the total impulse) should be identical.

Now, if the contact patch size were smaller (e.g., due to tip shape and hardness differences), and if the speed delivered to the CB were still the same, the total force (or more precisely, the total impulse) delivered to the CB would still be the same. What what would be different is the pressure (force per area) over the contact patch (during the contact time), but this really has no affect on the shot.

I hope that helps,
Dave
Click to expand...

Second paragraph means I am right. Thanks.
 
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