Tip hardness and the amount of spin. Is the physics really settled?

Bob Jewett said:
If anyone wants to try a test, here is a possible setup.

Put the object ball on the head spot. Put the cue ball about a foot away and towards the head rail. The balls are pointed to the foot spot. Shoot straight at the object ball to send it over the foot spot twice and return. Try to draw the cue ball back to the head cushion without the object ball hitting the head cushion.

Try it with two tips and see whether one tip can do the shot and one can't. You need to take more than one try with each cue and you have to be at the miscue limit (probably) so there will be some number of miscues.

If the shot is too easy, move the object ball farther from the cushion. (and vice-versa). If yonder bumper is dead, the shot will be easy.

This test tells you about the quality of your draw -- that is, the spin you get for a given speed. I believe that's what the OP is really interested in.
Click to expand...
Although I have only played pool for approx 15 years, I came from a snooker background.

1. IMO This test will not work for most players!

If you require I will give you a test to prove it.

2. To the OP, it is not to do with 'instantaneous contact' this is wrong.

IMO qbuilder got it right. It is not about the softness/hardness of the tip, it is the 'grippiness'. This is determined by other factors aswell ie how it is scuffed, radius, chalk etc.

Bottom line is any tip whether hard or soft that plays within the normal parameters is good enough to play pool!
It is about stroke and followthrough.

If you need a tip that allows you to keep playing monster draw shots, I suggest you work on your patterns.
 
I did some testing today and I believe there are other factors that haven't been discussed.
1. Tip elasticity.
2. Cue weight.
3. ....

I took 7 shafts with 6 different types of tips.
1 Kamui Black Medium Shaft wood McD
2 Wizard Medium New Shaft Jacoby Hybrid Edge shaft
3 Wizard Medium Well Worn Shaft wood McD
4 Morakami Black SS Shaft wood McD
5 Morakami Black Medium Shaft D3
6 Tiger Jump Break Tip Shaft D3
7 Tiger Jump Break Tip Shaft Adams

9 ' Table.
I started 4 different tests repeated 4 times with each shaft and minimum cue weight.

Test 1 like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_videoeditor&v=X4PNAEb0VoI
Winning order:
1, 3, 6, 7, rest were very close.

So I dropped down to testing 1, 3 and 6

Test 2 as described by Bob Jewett above but with CB 8" from OB:
Winning order 1, 3 really too close to call 6 failed.

Test 3 same as 2 but with 25 oz cue:
Winning order 1, 3, 6 really too close to call.

Test 4 Power draw on long diagonal OB on foot string, CB on head string using 25 oz cue:
Winning order 3 and 6 both hit the head rail and bounced about 2-3 feet, 1 barley made it to the head string.

Then I dropped cue weight down to 19.5 oz and repeated Test 4:
3 and 6 hit the head rail and 1 came back to center table.

I'll admit my stroke isn't near as good is it once was but I'm trying :)
 
GB Basher said:
..
1. IMO This test (the one I proposed -- Bob) will not work for most players!

If you require I will give you a test to prove it. ...
Click to expand...
I also don't know what you mean by won't work. I've shown it to players from beginners to Mike Massey and the test seemed to work as intended.

What's your test?
 
SilverCue, thank you for your input on this matter :smile:
Really good to read these hands on type of takes on this spin discussion, because that's what matters for me personally rather than scientific mountain of data that doesn't directly affect my game.

I will do some testing of my own in the coming weeks. I'll be testing Kamui Black SS, S and Clear Black M, and also a Pechauer gold M on a Mezz WX700 shaft. My personal preference for feel and playability moves around medium, Black S is currently on my Mezz. I'll post my finding regarding feel and spin when I find some time to do the testing part properly :)
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The difference is simply one of force - a harder tip transfers more force to the CB. More force doesn't matter with side spin because it adds to both RPMs and to CB speed without changing the spin-to-speed ratio - so more RPMs doesn't = more spin effect.

Draw is different because the CB is stopped by the OB, removing CB speed from the equation - so more RPMs = more draw.

In other words, you'd get the same result with a softer tip if you just hit a little harder.

pj
chgo

P.S. This is just a paraphrase of the excellent answers given by Mike Page and Dr. Dave above.
Click to expand...

Ah, so there IS a difference between side spin and draw after all.

Well done , PJ!
 
Bob Jewett said:
I also don't know what you mean by won't work. I've shown it to players from beginners to Mike Massey and the test seemed to work as intended.

What's your test?
Click to expand...

My test is not a replacement for yours. Your test is a good test in theory until you add in the 'human factor'.
My test would be a prelude to your test.
Just place object ball in centre of table (blue spot on snooker table).
Place CB 12" away lengthways.
Just play a draw shot so the CB is level with the 1st diamond (I guess this would be a 3 foot draw shot)
Now repeat 10 times with same cue, same tip, same everything.
If you can get the CB into the same small area each time it means you are able to replicate your weight & stroke/follow through everything.....To a player that can do this your test has great meaning.
Until a player that can accurately replicate a controlled mid length draw shot numerous times with 1 tip, IMO he cannot start comparing different tips.
 
Ron Swanson said:
I can't visualise what your test is. Do you have video?
Click to expand...
I don't know if this will help, but...

Bob's test is to determine the maximum ratio of CB draw distance to OB roll distance. The higher the ratio (the farther the CB travels compared with the OB), the greater the effectiveness of the draw shot.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I don't know if this will help, but...

Bob's test is to determine the maximum ratio of CB draw distance to OB roll distance. The higher the ratio (the farther the CB travels compared with the OB), the greater the effectiveness of the draw shot.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you.
But unless you can first establish the test is being carried out using an identical stroke/follow through each time, how will you know if the differences in the results you achieve are due to the tips or the stroke.

I do not know the skill level of any of the AZers. In my original post I said 'most players' perhaps I should of said 'average player'.

As I said before I agree with you and I think Bob's test is a good one.
For Bob's test to be meaningful, there should only be ONE variable and that should be the tip....the average player cannot conduct this test without also introducing extra variables.
 
GB Basher said:
I completely agree with you.
But unless you can first establish the test is being carried out using an identical stroke/follow through each time, how will you know if the differences in the results you achieve are due to the tips or the stroke.

I do not know the skill level of any of the AZers. In my original post I said 'most players' perhaps I should of said 'average player'.

As I said before I agree with you and I think Bob's test is a good one.
For Bob's test to be meaningful, there should only be ONE variable and that should be the tip....the average player cannot conduct this test without also introducing extra variables.
Click to expand...

In case you don't know, you're quoting someone who believes all cues, shafts, tips etc draw the same.

Oh yes.
 
GB Basher said:
I completely agree with you.
But unless you can first establish the test is being carried out using an identical stroke/follow through each time, how will you know if the differences in the results you achieve are due to the tips or the stroke.

I do not know the skill level of any of the AZers. In my original post I said 'most players' perhaps I should of said 'average player'.

As I said before I agree with you and I think Bob's test is a good one.
For Bob's test to be meaningful, there should only be ONE variable and that should be the tip....the average player cannot conduct this test without also introducing extra variables.
Click to expand...

This is true, but if you do the test enough times, the other variables will average out.
 
Ron Swanson said:
Bob Jewett said:
If anyone wants to try a test, here is a possible setup.

Put the object ball on the head spot. Put the cue ball about a foot away and towards the head rail. The balls are pointed to the foot spot. Shoot straight at the object ball to send it over the foot spot twice and return. Try to draw the cue ball back to the head cushion without the object ball hitting the head cushion.

Try it with two tips and see whether one tip can do the shot and one can't. You need to take more than one try with each cue and you have to be at the miscue limit (probably) so there will be some number of miscues.

If the shot is too easy, move the object ball farther from the cushion. (and vice-versa). If yonder bumper is dead, the shot will be easy.

This test tells you about the quality of your draw -- that is, the spin you get for a given speed. I believe that's what the OP is really interested in.
Click to expand...
I can't visualise what your test is. Do you have video?
Click to expand...
What Bob is describing is a "non-progressive" version of the first challenge drill in the following video:

NV C.4 - Draw shot challenge drills, from VEPP I

Enjoy,
Dave
 
I would think that any experiments would also have to take into account the thickness/height of the tip; the texture of the the tip -- whether it'd been hit with a scuffer and/or shaped recently; and perhaps the age of the tip -- soft tips can turn hard after hours of play.

My experience has been that a newly shaped soft tip with a half dozen layers will generate more spin and draw than the same tip that has not been shaped or scuffed and is down to its last couple layers.

Lou Figueroa
carry on
 
lfigueroa said:
I would think that any experiments would also have to take into account the thickness/height of the tip; the texture of the the tip -- whether it'd been hit with a scuffer and/or shaped recently; and perhaps the age of the tip -- soft tips can turn hard after hours of play.

My experience has been that a newly shaped soft tip with a half dozen layers will generate more spin and draw than the same tip that has not been shaped or scuffed and is down to its last couple layers.

Lou Figueroa
carry on
Click to expand...

About six months ago I took two identical new production cues and put the softest Kamui tip on one and the hardest on the other. I shaped both tips on the lathe identically--so looking at the cues you couldn't tell which you had

Then I set up a slightly-off-of-straight shot on the 6X12 snooker table into a corner pocket with the idea that more draw pulls the cueball back to an earlier spot on the side rail.

Then I taped paper all along the side rail to mark where each shot ended up (blue marks for soft tip, red marks for hard tip).

Then I had a good player (over 700 speed) shoot the shot over and over again maybe a hundred times. Each time I just handed him a cue randomly. He had no way of knowing until hearing the sound which cue he was hitting with.....

I don't remember what the results were.... I have to look for them...
 
mikepage said:
About six months ago I took two identical new production cues and put the softest Kamui tip on one and the hardest on the other. I shaped both tips on the lathe identically--so looking at the cues you couldn't tell which you had

Then I set up a slightly-off-of-straight shot on the 6X12 snooker table into a corner pocket with the idea that more draw pulls the cueball back to an earlier spot on the side rail.

Then I taped paper all along the side rail to mark where each shot ended up (blue marks for soft tip, red marks for hard tip).

Then I had a good player (over 700 speed) shoot the shot over and over again maybe a hundred times. Each time I just handed him a cue randomly. He had no way of knowing until hearing the sound which cue he was hitting with.....

I don't remember what the results were.... I have to look for them...
Click to expand...
You tease!

pj
chgo
 
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