Any tips or advise on improving follow stroke?

L

littlewing1208

Registered
I've been playing for about a decade and I'm quite adept at draw, both in accuracy of use and shear ability to draw (can draw across the hypotenuse of a 9ft table consistently with a 1ft gap between CB/OB, or draw it 1/4 to half table with a full table gap between OB/CB), but for whatever reason my stroke does not put a lot of top spin on the ball when I hit it high. In general I find people having exactly the opposite difficulty.

I've tried hitting the CB a 1/4 ball above center and have my stroke sweep up a bit but that generally doesn't work well (and is probably terrible for maintaining a consistent stroke). Usually when I have my cue level and stroke the ball high, I get mediocre follow. It is situations when I'm on a rail and stroking the CB high AND downward that I get the best follow, which is not entirely intuitive.

Thoughts? Advice?
 
littlewing1208 said:
I've tried hitting the CB a 1/4 ball above center and have my stroke sweep up a bit but that generally doesn't work well (and is probably terrible for maintaining a consistent stroke).
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You're absolutely right - stay away from this "technique"; it's unnecessary and will only make things worse.

It is situations when I'm on a rail and stroking the CB high AND downward that I get the best follow, which is not entirely intuitive.
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This is a clue that you're not really hitting the CB as high as you think when you're not on the rail. When you are on the rail you're forced to hit at almost maximum follow height, so you're getting good follow (despite hitting downward, not because of it).

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You're absolutely right - stay away from this "technique"; it's unnecessary and will only make things worse.


This is a clue that you're not really hitting the CB as high as you think when you're not on the rail. When you are on the rail you're forced to hit at almost maximum follow height, so you're getting good follow (despite hitting downward, not because of it).

pj
chgo
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Yup. On the ball-side, max. follow is achieved by hitting as high as possible without miscueing. On the technique side, the strokes are very similar to draw. Level cue, good cue acceleration through contact.
 
Pay particular attention to the wrist on your bridge hand. The wrist should be level with the point at which you are hitting the cue ball. In other words raise your wrist and bridge so your stroke is level with where you are hitting the cue ball. Conversely lower the wrist and bridge for draw to keep a level stroke. Your stroke should always be level except in certain instances where you are on a rail and shooting a stop or draw shot or shooting over balls.
 
littlewing1208 said:
I've been playing for about a decade and I'm quite adept at draw, both in accuracy of use and shear ability to draw (can draw across the hypotenuse of a 9ft table consistently with a 1ft gap between CB/OB, or draw it 1/4 to half table with a full table gap between OB/CB), but for whatever reason my stroke does not put a lot of top spin on the ball when I hit it high. In general I find people having exactly the opposite difficulty.

I've tried hitting the CB a 1/4 ball above center and have my stroke sweep up a bit but that generally doesn't work well (and is probably terrible for maintaining a consistent stroke). Usually when I have my cue level and stroke the ball high, I get mediocre follow. It is situations when I'm on a rail and stroking the CB high AND downward that I get the best follow, which is not entirely intuitive.

Thoughts? Advice?
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Post video of a few shots, since you seem to have the stroke needed for a follow shot as it's much easier than draw, you are probably just not hitting where you think you are.
 
DJ14.1 said:
Yup. On the ball-side, max. follow is achieved by hitting as high as possible without miscueing. On the technique side, the strokes are very similar to draw. Level cue, good cue acceleration through contact.
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this..................
 
littlewing1208 said:
It is situations when I'm on a rail and stroking the CB high AND downward that I get the best follow, which is not entirely intuitive.

Thoughts? Advice?
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Then try to repeat that stroke when you are off the rail. You can use follow quite nicely with a downward stroke.
 
cookie man said:
Then try to repeat that stroke when you are off the rail. You can use follow quite nicely with a downward stroke.
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Why stroke downward for follow when you are on the rail? What is preventing you from a level stroke when you are on the rail and how does a downward stroke support follow cookie man?
 
Less is more...yes, hit as high and level as you can without miscuing, but start with softer hits (finesse) and add some power as you get more comfortable. I can get outrageous follow with a soft, follow-through stroke, but when I try to amp it, I can lose nearly all the action. Kind of the same as draw shots...the harder you try the harder it is to pull off.
 
There is no follow stroke. There is no draw stroke. There is simply a stroke. It is the same for every shot. The only thing that changes is where you hit the cue ball. If you're changing your stroke for different shots, you're sacrificing consistency for any imaginary gain you think you're getting by doing so. Obviously this doesn't apply to jumping or masse when you have to elevate the cue.
 
philly said:
Why stroke downward for follow when you are on the rail? What is preventing you from a level stroke when you are on the rail and how does a downward stroke support follow cookie man?
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Maybe you're asking why stroke downward when the CB isnot on the rail? The answer is there's no good reason to do that and very good reasons not to (mainly the risk of curving the CB if you hit even slightly offcenter).

When the CB is on the rail you can't avoid stroking downward at least a little because the middle of the rail is usually higher than the cushion nose and you'll hit too high on the CB (and miscue) with a level stroke. This might be a good time to look at the CB last, so you'll be sure to hit it dead center (to avoid unintentional swerve) - the same principle as looking at the CB last when bridged over another ball.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe you're asking why stroke downward when the CB isnot on the rail? The answer is there's no good reason to do that and very good reasons not to (mainly the risk of curving the CB if you hit even slightly offcenter).

When the CB is on the rail you can't avoid stroking downward at least a little because the middle of the rail is usually higher than the cushion nose and you'll hit too high on the CB (and miscue) with a level stroke. This might be a good time to look at the CB last, so you'll be sure to hit it dead center (to avoid unintentional swerve) - the same principle as looking at the CB last when bridged over another ball.

pj
chgo
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Darren Appleton spends quite some time addressing this situation/shot in his TAR instructional DVD. He recommends shortening the backswing to abbreviate the stroke. I figured that out a long time before I saw the DVD. It works well. There is rarely a situation when you're on the rail when you need to put a monster stroke on the ball with a full backswing. Generally speaking, a little "bunt" will do the job well.
 
philly said:
Why stroke downward for follow when you are on the rail? What is preventing you from a level stroke when you are on the rail and how does a downward stroke support follow cookie man?
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Most of the time you are on the rail you have to stroke downward.
Off the rail you can also shoot downward for follow. It gives you a very controlled forward roll on the CB. Its only a slight downward stroke, nothing that will drastically change anything. U got nothing to lose by experimenting with it.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Maybe you're asking why stroke downward when the CB isnot on the rail? The answer is there's no good reason to do that and very good reasons not to (mainly the risk of curving the CB if you hit even slightly offcenter).

When the CB is on the rail you can't avoid stroking downward at least a little because the middle of the rail is usually higher than the cushion nose and you'll hit too high on the CB (and miscue) with a level stroke. This might be a good time to look at the CB last, so you'll be sure to hit it dead center (to avoid unintentional swerve) - the same principle as looking at the CB last when bridged over another ball.

pj
chgo
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The downward stroke is very slight and certainly not enough to have to worry about swerve.
 
cookie man said:
The downward stroke is very slight and certainly not enough to have to worry about swerve.
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I don't know if this is what you mean, but when the CB is on the rail the necessary minimum downward angle on the cue is definitely enough to create significant swerve with any offcenter hit.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I don't know if this is what you mean, but when the CB is on the rail the necessary minimum downward angle on the cue is definitely enough to create significant swerve with any offcenter hit.

pj
chgo
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Was really talking off the rail. Rail shots are always tricky depending on how close the CB is to the rail
Also just talking about controlled follow of shorter distances. Powerful follows are a different animal and IMO experience is your best advice on those.
 
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Good info folks. I appreciate it. I think I likely have a mental block about how high I can hit the CB without a miscue and for whatever reason, it doesn't seem to be present with how low I hit the CB...brains are messed up ;).
 
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