APA Rant

Zphix

Zphix

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I miss Wisconsin so much. They have etiquette and strong players who are respectable and love to pass on their knowledge. People aren't categorized by their number or their skill level (C,B, etc.).

I'm playing in the APA in Chicago... and I just hate it. I'm rated as a 4 (from a year and a half ago before I was in Green Bay for a year) and coming back home to Chicago... I am definitely not a 4/5 (just got bumped to a 5) in 8 ball. My average game lasts 2 innings (and the highest a game has gone was 4 innings) so far, and every set I've won either 3-1, or 4-1.

I'm playing a guy last night (he's a 6), and this is the shot (I'm on the hill at 3-1). He's got all of his balls on the table, and my 5 ball is almost hanging in the side. His 13 ball is half a diamond away and half a diamond out (from the side pocket), I play my 5 ball in the side, and come off the rail to hit his 13 to stop the CB for a shot on the 8 in the side.

This guy gets up, and says foul! Claiming that I hit his 13 first... "otherwise it wouldn't have moved at all." We argue, and he calls the TD over... and since I don't have proof that I didn't hit his ball he gets ball in hand, and I win anyway. Somewhere in this arguing he says: "You're a 5, I'm a 6, I know what I'm doing way more than you do."

This really bothered me, but it's pretty common out here and I hate it sooo much. I play pool to get better, and I play pool to get to the top of my game. To be told that I can and can't do something because of a number on paper just infuriates me - I'm guilty of this too, but I try to avoid this as much as possible. If somebody is a legit 4 then I don't expect them to be able to play a 4 rail kick shot, and if somebody is a legit 7 then I expect them to pick better position play and patterns than I see them playing.

The APA just baffles me... especially now that I've been exposed to legitimate good pool. I doubt I'll be able to stomach this much more.

Rant over.

EDIT: I'll try and get a pic up of the shot once pool.bz is back up and running.
 
My only comment is that you're condemning the entire APA because of one asshole. What if he just said, "I'm better than you and know better." or "I've been playing this game a helluva lot longer than you and know what I'm talking about"?

There's really no difference, he thinks he knows more than you and just used APA SL's as justification for it. If you were in a different league or just matching up, he'd find some other reason for justifying his shit.

That said, I don't like the APA format or rules but at least I know that assholes are assholes and it has nothing to do with what organization they're a part of.
 
Zphix said:
I miss Wisconsin so much. They have etiquette and strong players who are respectable and love to pass on their knowledge. People aren't categorized by their number or their skill level (C,B, etc.).

I'm playing in the APA in Chicago... and I just hate it. I'm rated as a 4 (from a year and a half ago before I was in Green Bay for a year) and coming back home to Chicago... I am definitely not a 4/5 (just got bumped to a 5) in 8 ball. My average game lasts 2 innings (and the highest a game has gone was 4 innings) so far, and every set I've won either 3-1, or 4-1.

I'm playing a guy last night (he's a 6), and this is the shot (I'm on the hill at 3-1). He's got all of his balls on the table, and my 5 ball is almost hanging in the side. His 13 ball is half a diamond away and half a diamond out (from the side pocket), I play my 5 ball in the side, and come off the rail to hit his 13 to stop the CB for a shot on the 8 in the side.

This guy gets up, and says foul! Claiming that I hit his 13 first... "otherwise it wouldn't have moved at all." We argue, and he calls the TD over... and since I don't have proof that I didn't hit his ball he gets ball in hand, and I win anyway. Somewhere in this arguing he says: "You're a 5, I'm a 6, I know what I'm doing way more than you do."

This really bothered me, but it's pretty common out here and I hate it sooo much. I play pool to get better, and I play pool to get to the top of my game. To be told that I can and can't do something because of a number on paper just infuriates me - I'm guilty of this too, but I try to avoid this as much as possible. If somebody is a legit 4 then I don't expect them to be able to play a 4 rail kick shot, and if somebody is a legit 7 then I expect them to pick better position play and patterns than I see them playing.

The APA just baffles me... especially now that I've been exposed to legitimate good pool. I doubt I'll be able to stomach this much more.

Rant over.

EDIT: I'll try and get a pic up of the shot once pool.bz is back up and running.
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Stand your ground next time. In the case of no ref watching the shot, the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.

This is a case of the ref imposing his will and changing the outcome of the game.

In all reality, I'd suggest changing your expectations of APA. When I played, I only played to help the hordes of nice people who didn't have a clue how to play pool and didn't know what good pool decorum was.

In a slightly related story, I had a similar incident where my opponent called a foul on me, I said it wasn't, he started arguing while I was politely listening. He got into his argument and his captain came over (his captain knew me pretty well) and stopped him. The captain stopped the whole thing by telling his player, 'If it had been a foul you wouldn't have had a chance to call it because Don would have already been handing you the cueball.'

Be known as a great sportsman, you'll still get burned once in a while, but at the end of the day you know what was right and that is more important than APA.
 
krupa said:
My only comment is that you're condemning the entire APA because of one asshole. What if he just said, "I'm better than you and know better." or "I've been playing this game a helluva lot longer than you and know what I'm talking about"?

There's really no difference, he thinks he knows more than you and just used APA SL's as justification for it. If you were in a different league or just matching up, he'd find some other reason for justifying his shit.

That said, I don't like the APA format or rules but at least I know that assholes are assholes and it has nothing to do with what organization they're a part of.
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I do condemn the APA for the high rate of these types of problems. The reason why is ignorance and not a higher incidence of asshats. The APA caters to non-poolplayers. They want new people which means they want people who don't know the accepted social standards around a pool table. I play at a place where the APA players come in once a week (I'm there about five times a week), they spread their crap out everywhere, stand where other players have to ask them to move EVERY time they come to that side of the table. The APA players act like they own the place. I've had hats ruined from APA players knocking over the drink they put on the table where I had set my stuff, sunglasses broken because some idiot decided to sit on the table instead one of the 40 unused chairs.

All of the bad incidents I've had at this place were caused by APA players. I won't go there on APA night any longer.
 
krupa said:
My only comment is that you're condemning the entire APA because of one asshole.
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I guess he's the same guy that has inspired the hundreds of "APA Rant" threads on AZB. Why doesn't APA get rid of this "one asshole" and solve all its problems?

Face it, the APA rules and LO incentives allow a "jerk" to become an "asshole." It's a good business model for making money (necessary to keep a league in operation), but it creates lots of problems for players.
 
Don't you realize this is AZ, where twue players knock on league players for all their ills, and any troubles that beset them. :-)

FWIW, people need to be reminded APA 8-ball handicap scale is catered towards beginners/intermediates. Without leagues, many poolhalls would be out of business. Revenue wise, $12 green fees from an SL2 is just as good as $12 from a A level player. There are alot more SL2 that A level players. That being said, in my area a SL 6 is probably a C, or C+.

krupa said:
My only comment is that you're condemning the entire APA because of one asshole. What if he just said, "I'm better than you and know better." or "I've been playing this game a helluva lot longer than you and know what I'm talking about"?

There's really no difference, he thinks he knows more than you and just used APA SL's as justification for it. If you were in a different league or just matching up, he'd find some other reason for justifying his shit.

That said, I don't like the APA format or rules but at least I know that assholes are assholes and it has nothing to do with what organization they're a part of.
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krupa said:
My only comment is that you're condemning the entire APA because of one asshole. What if he just said, "I'm better than you and know better." or "I've been playing this game a helluva lot longer than you and know what I'm talking about"?

There's really no difference, he thinks he knows more than you and just used APA SL's as justification for it. If you were in a different league or just matching up, he'd find some other reason for justifying his shit.

That said, I don't like the APA format or rules but at least I know that assholes are assholes and it has nothing to do with what organization they're a part of.
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I wasn't condemning the entire APA based on this one guy. I said that this behavior is pretty common here - I'm condemning the Chicagoland APA.

The other comment I hear alot is "You're not old enough to play as good as me." Or, something along the lines of "You're only 20. You don't know enough about the game to shoot the shots I take. You can't possibly know as much as me..."

and yet I'm beating these guys horribly.

I think pool is a game of respect, and the opening lines to PoolHall Junkies sums it up perfectly:

"The pool hall is the great equalizer. In the pool hall, nobody cares how young you are, how old you are, what color your skin is or how much money you have in your pocket. It's about how you move."

And to not respect my game because of my age, or my SL based on a number on paper just irks me.
 
Zphix said:
I wasn't condemning the entire APA based on this one guy. I said that this behavior is pretty common here - I'm condemning the Chicagoland APA.

The other comment I hear alot is "You're not old enough to play as good as me." Or, something along the lines of "You're only 20. You don't know enough about the game to shoot the shots I take. You can't possibly know as much as me..."

and yet I'm beating these guys horribly.

I think pool is a game of respect, and the opening lines to PoolHall Junkies sums it up perfectly:

"The pool hall is the great equalizer. In the pool hall, nobody cares how young you are, how old you are, what color your skin is or how much money you have in your pocket. It's about how you move."

And to not respect my game because of my age, or my SL based on a number on paper just irks me.
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You're right. Just keep beating them and they'll come around. That's why I stay away from APA. I find it is mostly catering to guys that want to hang out in a bar with friends and oh by the way let's play some pool. The owners of the bars with APA wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe you should hang in the poolrooms. If you play as well as you say you do then you will get your respect there.
 
for the 1000th time

I love these threads :thumbup:

"I hate the APA, it sucks and the players are jerks......oh and by the way I beat a 6 last night with a awesome break and run and our team made city" Woo Hoo.
 
I remember my first time meeting an ignorant pool player... oh wait no I don't there are so many occurrences that they all blend together.

I would have asked him if he likes to play for money while a ref watches. Since he's better than you asking for a modest spot is appropriate.
 
Zphix said:
I miss Wisconsin so much. They have etiquette and strong players who are respectable and love to pass on their knowledge. People aren't categorized by their number or their skill level (C,B, etc.).
EDIT: I'll try and get a pic up of the shot once pool.bz is back up and running.
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Being a Wisconsin pool player from the same area where you play (Fox Valley if I am correct) I hope people from other areas feel the same about us.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
<snip> The APA caters to non-poolplayers. They want new people which means they want people who don't know the accepted social standards around a pool table. <snip>
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I've grown tired of the APA. The handicap system is fraught with problems. Good players know how to game the system to keep a low handicap and I would agree with your statement that some players don't know etiquette around the pool table.

Two weeks ago I was playing a "3". Every time it was my turn, he either walked up to the table to get chalk or simply stood right next to the table, like 2 feet away. I finally explained to him when his turn is over he has to walk away from the table. His response: "I'm new. I've only been playing APA for 2 weeks." If that was true he wouldn't be a "3".

I would have bagged this season except I like the people on my team, but this is my last, not only for the unfair handicap system, but other factors.

For example, I don't like the coaching and the time-outs. When called on me it hurts my game and when called on my opponent I often see it hurt their game.

And finally, there couldn't be a worse hall than where the APA playoffs are held in Connecticut. The tables are in terrible condition, the room is loud and packed wall-to-wall. I was relieved last season that our team didn't have to go there again.
 
Zphix said:
I miss Wisconsin so much. They have etiquette and strong players who are respectable and love to pass on their knowledge. People aren't categorized by their number or their skill level (C,B, etc.).

I'm playing in the APA in Chicago... and I just hate it. I'm rated as a 4 (from a year and a half ago before I was in Green Bay for a year) and coming back home to Chicago... I am definitely not a 4/5 (just got bumped to a 5) in 8 ball. My average game lasts 2 innings (and the highest a game has gone was 4 innings) so far, and every set I've won either 3-1, or 4-1.

I'm playing a guy last night (he's a 6), and this is the shot (I'm on the hill at 3-1). He's got all of his balls on the table, and my 5 ball is almost hanging in the side. His 13 ball is half a diamond away and half a diamond out (from the side pocket), I play my 5 ball in the side, and come off the rail to hit his 13 to stop the CB for a shot on the 8 in the side.

This guy gets up, and says foul! Claiming that I hit his 13 first... "otherwise it wouldn't have moved at all." We argue, and he calls the TD over... and since I don't have proof that I didn't hit his ball he gets ball in hand, and I win anyway. Somewhere in this arguing he says: "You're a 5, I'm a 6, I know what I'm doing way more than you do."

This really bothered me, but it's pretty common out here and I hate it sooo much. I play pool to get better, and I play pool to get to the top of my game. To be told that I can and can't do something because of a number on paper just infuriates me - I'm guilty of this too, but I try to avoid this as much as possible. If somebody is a legit 4 then I don't expect them to be able to play a 4 rail kick shot, and if somebody is a legit 7 then I expect them to pick better position play and patterns than I see them playing.

The APA just baffles me... especially now that I've been exposed to legitimate good pool. I doubt I'll be able to stomach this much more.

Rant over.

EDIT: I'll try and get a pic up of the shot once pool.bz is back up and running.
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So, you're back from school for the summer. Well, if you want to trot on over to Pyramid and be a sub for our Thursday night ACS league, let me know. We are looking for a 6th guy for our 5 man team .....and our 5th guy is getting kinda iffy due to work stuff going on.

Great food, good beer selection, 16 Gold Crowns with new Simonis cloth, a LOT of talented players in this league and ALL the Magic Chalk you need :)

We use to have the King of IL sub for us all the time, but he's too good for us now ;) ( Only kidding Jeff )
 
First off, this is not a APA problem you are experiencing. You are here ranting about APA because of some experience you had and attempting to lump the league and all players into it as bad. Which is wrong on your part, period.

Second, the game issue you describe is more a your lack of knowledge of the rules. Regardless of what he thought, if he thought it was a close shot he should have stopped you and asked for someone to watch the shot. If he failed to do that, then he loses the ability to call a bad hit unless it is blatant and witnessed by others that can confirm it. I would hope you are a good sportsman and would call it on yourself anyway if that was the case. Regardless of skill level everyone should be aware of the rules and if someone tried to act as though he knows better because of his skill compared to yours and you tell him the rule and can show him the rule if he wants to debate it, then that will shut him up quick. That is what you should have done in this case regardless of who he brings to the table to tell you otherwise. This is not even a gray area rule, it is black and white. You don't ask for a watcher, the call goes to the shooter.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
All of the bad incidents I've had at this place were caused by APA players. I won't go there on APA night any longer.
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Sounds to me the place you play at is a bunch of clowns and even if they played in the ElCorazonFrio League of Pool Etiquette you would still have the same problems. Attempting to profile people based on what league they shot in and then stereotype that league is shear stupidity and shows a lack of maturity on your part.

I have played in multiple leagues and every single one of them has arrogant, disrespectful, hot headed assholes so maybe I should just say all pool players are assholes and then worldwide us pool players can be known as assholes.
 
ChicagoRJ said:
So, you're back from school for the summer. Well, if you want to trot on over to Pyramid and be a sub for our Thursday night ACS league, let me know. We are looking for a 6th guy for our 5 man team .....and our 5th guy is getting kinda iffy due to work stuff going on.

Great food, good beer selection, 16 Gold Crowns with new Simonis cloth, a LOT of talented players in this league and ALL the Magic Chalk you need :)

We use to have the King of IL sub for us all the time, but he's too good for us now ;) ( Only kidding Jeff )
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If I lived a little closer to the city then I probably would. As it is, Pyramid is an hour away from me and I'm not too fond of making that drive every week. Bad logistics for me =(

I'd hang around the pool rooms but nobody is really there when I'm playing. I've been to Red Shoes a handful of times so far and it's been pretty quiet. Sapphire Billiards (literally a walk down the street from me) is always quiet and no competition there anyway.

My goal being home in Chicago for the better part of year is connecting with strong players (strong As, AAs, or Masters), or Bs that want to improve (and are dedicated to improving) like myself...

I just have no patience for these ignorant assholes who play pool as a way to pass the time drinking and still have the nerve to question my ability as a player who is super dedicated to this game. I recently played with ScottK and he said it's pretty clear that I've gotten a lot better since I left - and numerous players have told me that if I keep going the way I am then I'll be master caliber in 5 years.
 
Skippy27 said:
Sounds to me the place you play at is a bunch of clowns and even if they played in the ElCorazonFrio League of Pool Etiquette you would still have the same problems. Attempting to profile people based on what league they shot in and then stereotype that league is shear stupidity and shows a lack of maturity on your part.

I have played in multiple leagues and every single one of them has arrogant, disrespectful, hot headed assholes so maybe I should just say all pool players are assholes and then worldwide us pool players can be known as assholes.
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No, the place I play at is mostly great people.

I've never had a problem with anyone there, but have had many problems with APA members.

I know who a few of the captains are and they lead the behaviors I have described. The newer people follow.

I don't know about maturity, but I choose to not put myself in situations I don't like repeatedly.

If it is a matter of etiquette to not destroy personal property in public venues, then apparently they don't live up to my expectations.

BTW, I never stereotyped a whole group of people. I have experiences with this PARTICULAR group of people and I choose to avoid them.

Also, I do play in a cash league and enjoy being around almost everybody in that league. I've never seen any problems.
 
Zphix said:
My goal being home in Chicago for the better part of year is connecting with strong players (strong As, AAs, or Masters), or Bs that want to improve (and are dedicated to improving) like myself...

.
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You gotta move out of the sticks son ;)

But, if you really want to play good talent, it would be worth your time to come up here a couple of times a month to play. More masters, advanced players, good open players and shortstop players than you can shake a stick at.
 
A good plan for improvement would probably be solo practice 5 or 6 days a week, and then competition on one day. Sundays there's a nice little double elimination tourney at red shoes, and plenty of gooood games on the side. APA 8-ball rules and handicaps.

Or if you're willing to make the drive to the city, 10 ball tournaments at Chris's sunday nights and at Marie's Golden Cue on Monday nights. These 2 are a couple of the best cheap tournaments in the area! $15, handicapped, great tables, good opportunity to play some of the best shooters in the city.
 
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Skippy27 said:
First off, this is not a APA problem you are experiencing. You are here ranting about APA because of some experience you had and attempting to lump the league and all players into it as bad. Which is wrong on your part, period.

Second, the game issue you describe is more a your lack of knowledge of the rules. Regardless of what he thought, if he thought it was a close shot he should have stopped you and asked for someone to watch the shot. If he failed to do that, then he loses the ability to call a bad hit unless it is blatant and witnessed by others that can confirm it. I would hope you are a good sportsman and would call it on yourself anyway if that was the case. Regardless of skill level everyone should be aware of the rules and if someone tried to act as though he knows better because of his skill compared to yours and you tell him the rule and can show him the rule if he wants to debate it, then that will shut him up quick. That is what you should have done in this case regardless of who he brings to the table to tell you otherwise. This is not even a gray area rule, it is black and white. You don't ask for a watcher, the call goes to the shooter.
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^^^ this

And BTW, if you're averaging 2 inning games, you're right...you aren't a 5. You'll be a 6 soon enough, with that kind of average.

Hang in there. That other guy has to live with himself everyday, he's got the worse end of the deal.
 
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