Have to ask this question.

[3RAILKICK]

John,

Your post is exactly the point I tried to make in some of my previous posts. You limit the cue ball hop and slide that most strokes create. This helps with cling and throw in close quarters and can allow a player to shoot softer for better speed control.

The stroke gets a bad rap when people read about a swipe up on the cue ball, which is not the case. I get the feel of a sustained contact or solid stroke through the cue ball when using it. Thanks to you and Bill for describing it so well! Happy 4th!

Best,
Mike

Hey Mike...ran across a prior 'stroke/grip' thread similar/related in nature that you participated in...possibly on point..

12-06-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Yep, but at the point of impact, the grip is tight, which I think is interesting. I know that many players do it but what I don't know is whether or not it enhances the shot. If it does, then maybe an answer to the op's question is loose to tight.

As far as holding the cue extremely loose all the way through a power stroke, of course I've tried it many times and the cue went flying out of my hands, even with a rubber grip, so I am amazed at how anyone can do it without losing the cue, unless they squeeze their bridge so tight that it restricts the movement of the shaft --- which sort of defeats the purpose.



Hey Fran,

Been busy with year end for a bunch of clients so I am extrrrraaaa slow...

I think it's more of a pinning motion than a regrip.... At least if it's the stroke I am thinking about.... Cue is cradled loosely and the wrist goes from neutral or preset to extended like you are casting a rod and reel....

The casting motion will pin the cue in the grip between the thumb and forefinger and the pinky or back of the palm pad..... You can pin it without having the fingers even wrapped around the cue.... It's kind of like driving a nail with a hammer holding the hammer as loosely as possible....

Hopefully this description is close or I can try again LOL...

Chris
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btw...is this the 'pinning' CJ alludes to?

I think I like the reel casting (spinning rod) imagery better than hammering...but about the same ending orientation of the wrist...but without the 'snap' to get there...

take care

 

[One Pocket John]

Hey Mike...ran across a prior 'stroke/grip' thread similar/related in nature that you participated in...possibly on point..

12-06-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Yep, but at the point of impact, the grip is tight, which I think is interesting. I know that many players do it but what I don't know is whether or not it enhances the shot. If it does, then maybe an answer to the op's question is loose to tight.

As far as holding the cue extremely loose all the way through a power stroke, of course I've tried it many times and the cue went flying out of my hands, even with a rubber grip, so I am amazed at how anyone can do it without losing the cue, unless they squeeze their bridge so tight that it restricts the movement of the shaft --- which sort of defeats the purpose.



Hey Fran,

Been busy with year end for a bunch of clients so I am extrrrraaaa slow...

I think it's more of a pinning motion than a regrip.... At least if it's the stroke I am thinking about.... Cue is cradled loosely and the wrist goes from neutral or preset to extended like you are casting a rod and reel....

The casting motion will pin the cue in the grip between the thumb and forefinger and the pinky or back of the palm pad..... You can pin it without having the fingers even wrapped around the cue.... It's kind of like driving a nail with a hammer holding the hammer as loosely as possible....

Hopefully this description is close or I can try again LOL...

Chris
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Get off the layered tip bandwagon. Ki-Tech!!!

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#50




btw...is this the 'pinning' CJ alludes to?

I think I like the reel casting (spinning rod) imagery better than hammering...but about the same ending orientation of the wrist...but without the 'snap' to get there...

take care

I agree Bill (in Bold). What a person noticing at the end of the stroke is that the cue is only held by the ring finger and little finger. A clear sign that the wrist has broken.

Friday I played an old friend of mine some 9, 10 and 8 ball. I wanted to test the swiping up motion of the cue when using high QB. This type of stroke has its time and place to use but not as a "all the time use of the cue"

I spent Saturday watching the pro's play on YouTube. There are a variety of ways to use the cue to strike the QB depending on what ending you desire.

No matter what stoking technique you use always try to roll the cue ball when using above center. (even try to roll the OB into the pocket. This will change the way that you strike the QB)

Now I'm trying to figure out how they use the cue for below center QB and have the cue either level or rising on the finish.

My apologies to the Instructors, I know this Forum is yours and here to help new players. It certainly wasn't my intention to confuse or write about something that may confuse players that wish to learn "The Standard" for pocket billiards.

Mike, I don't think you have to be concerned about anyone getting flamed in this forum. :smile:

Talk to you all later. Have a good day.

John

 

[Mikjary]

Hey Mike...ran across a prior 'stroke/grip' thread similar/related in nature that you participated in...possibly on point..

12-06-2012, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FranCrimi View Post
Yep, but at the point of impact, the grip is tight, which I think is interesting. I know that many players do it but what I don't know is whether or not it enhances the shot. If it does, then maybe an answer to the op's question is loose to tight.

As far as holding the cue extremely loose all the way through a power stroke, of course I've tried it many times and the cue went flying out of my hands, even with a rubber grip, so I am amazed at how anyone can do it without losing the cue, unless they squeeze their bridge so tight that it restricts the movement of the shaft --- which sort of defeats the purpose.



Hey Fran,

Been busy with year end for a bunch of clients so I am extrrrraaaa slow...

I think it's more of a pinning motion than a regrip.... At least if it's the stroke I am thinking about.... Cue is cradled loosely and the wrist goes from neutral or preset to extended like you are casting a rod and reel....

The casting motion will pin the cue in the grip between the thumb and forefinger and the pinky or back of the palm pad..... You can pin it without having the fingers even wrapped around the cue.... It's kind of like driving a nail with a hammer holding the hammer as loosely as possible....

Hopefully this description is close or I can try again LOL...

Chris
__________________
Get off the layered tip bandwagon. Ki-Tech!!!

Outsville.com
#50




btw...is this the 'pinning' CJ alludes to?

I think I like the reel casting (spinning rod) imagery better than hammering...but about the same ending orientation of the wrist...but without the 'snap' to get there...

take care

Hey Bill,

I think it's the same general principle CJ talks about. I also think the confusion about the hammer stroke is the visualization of the movement by players trying to drive the hand forward and break the wrist down in their stroke. It seems counter intuitive.

The key element is finishing with a grip that allows the cue to accelerate throughout the stroke up to cue ball contact and not deviate from the shot line. Too tight and you limit your power transfer through the associated muscles down to the wrist/fingers. Too loose and the cue may stray off of the shot line and again, the timing may be off for the power transfer through the arm to the wrist/hand.

For different players and different situations, the hammer stroke has a basis, but not a universal application in each situation. IOW, we all have an individual stroke that changes depending on the shot and how we need to move the cue stick.

On power shots, many players will exhibit the classic bent wrist of the hammer stroke. Typically, the break and hard draw shots bring out the hand/wrist movement seen in CJ's comments. Softer shots don't need anything at all. A medium/average shot will see the wrist break downward usually after contact in the follow through because there's no need to manipulate the cue on an average shot. The motion is still there. It's just not being used to change the angle of attack as the cue approaches the cue ball.

A good example is watching an extreme draw shot by a Mike Massey/Corey Deuel type of player. The cue angle changes drastically as they approach the cue ball and continues on their follow through. This cue manipulation increases the speed of the stick as the arm slows down to allow the "pendulum" to take effect and accelerate the cue stick.

The pinning motion is an example of this power stroke, with a lesser speed component. Most players do it as they become more advanced in their abilities. The term, "pinning", is the same as, "digging into the cue ball", "putting a stroke on it", "spinning the rock"... just a moniker. It's just done at a lesser speed because of the better player's ability to spin the cue ball using a slower pace due to a better stroking ability.

Like Buddy Hall drawing the cue ball six feet with barely any stroking movement. Magic! Efren, Alex, Jayson and the boys do it effortlessly all the time. JMO...ICBW

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

I agree Bill (in Bold). What a person noticing at the end of the stroke is that the cue is only held by the ring finger and little finger. A clear sign that the wrist has broken.

Friday I played an old friend of mine some 9, 10 and 8 ball. I wanted to test the swiping up motion of the cue when using high QB. This type of stroke has its time and place to use but not as a "all the time use of the cue"

I spent Saturday watching the pro's play on YouTube. There are a variety of ways to use the cue to strike the QB depending on what ending you desire.

No matter what stoking technique you use always try to roll the cue ball when using above center. (even try to roll the OB into the pocket. This will change the way that you strike the QB)

Now I'm trying to figure out how they use the cue for below center QB and have the cue either level or rising on the finish.

My apologies to the Instructors, I know this Forum is yours and here to help new players. It certainly wasn't my intention to confuse or write about something that may confuse players that wish to learn "The Standard" for pocket billiards.

Mike, I don't think you have to be concerned about anyone getting flamed in this forum. :smile:

Talk to you all later. Have a good day.

John

John,

I don't really swipe up on an upstroke. I'm just changing my address on the cue ball and cue angle as I stroke up the ladder. I move through the cue ball rather than up off of the cue ball.

I get the sensation of solid contact instead of hitting with the edge of my tip which produces a bouncing cue ball, with speed. I try to hit barely above the equator of the cue ball and make sure I finish the stroke. This thought keeps me from glancing up off of whitey.

The bounce and the stun you get is transferred to the object ball on some shots. You can hear when you hit the ball well and don't hop the cue ball. It's more of a quieter thud, than a "tick". :grin:

Best,
Mike

 

[SmoothStroke]

Well described Mike in both posts, and the others who have posted also. These types of deliveries are not for everyone.

The ladder is a nice way to play; for me. I use it on every shot, anywhere on the cue ball. I prefer to stay inside the cue ball along the vertical crease. I play center down as much as possible and do anything I want with the cue ball. I rarely go up higher or to the extreme edges unless absolutely necessary, although I play 3 cushion and have no problem with extreme spin.

I don't measure, or ever think about the hit in 1/4 1/2 tips, to me it's an eyelash here and an eyelash there, it really helps to bring me into the target on the cue ball, precision, aim accuracy. I am a low ball aimer; I drop it on the cloth.

When you can hear and feel the click it's beautiful, no sloppy hits or crash strokes, everything clean. It's a big helper for playing the game in speed.

For me the follow through is more important for the beginning of the stroke rather the end. It's like listening to a song; they play the end of the song in the beginning, very faint and in the background.

When I stand over the shot I am analyzing and feeling the weight of my cue, rocking it. I am adjusting my swing hand to where it feels right for my speed and delivery ( My Sweet Spot) When I drop down to shoot it’s that feel that helps me accelerate through and achieve true stroke completion, not just a finish or a follow through. A finish could be 2 inches and the completion or extension another 6 and more. I believe when you are extending you are really feeling the game.

I don't think about it much or dwell on anything, just passing thoughts and movements of one shot in the game of pool that should take a few seconds. Rinse and repeat.

Upstroking, Dust Stroking, Clearing The Cue, may not be for everyone, although every top player does it, even Willie Mosconi.

Sincerely SS.

 

[One Pocket John]

Welcome back SS.

Been having a lot of educational enjoyment practicing over the last couple of weeks.

I have one question, how in the world is Mike Zuglan cuing the ball low, sometimes with the cue finishing level and at other times the cue finishes rising. This is the last of the cuing techniques that I'm trying to learn. Just about all the pro's use this type of stroke when cuing low.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxF-QUwwrLI&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for your help. :wink:

John

 

[SmoothStroke]

Welcome back SS.

Been having a lot of educational enjoyment practicing over the last couple of weeks.

I have one question, how in the world is Mike Zuglan cuing the ball low, sometimes with the cue finishing level and at other times the cue finishes rising. This is the last of the cuing techniques that I'm trying to learn. Just about all the pro's use this type of stroke when cuing low.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxF-QUwwrLI&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for your help. :wink:

John

Thank you John, I think I am just passing through.

I enjoy this thread so I thought I would throw my 2 cents in.

After the great descriptions in Mike's posts and the other posters in the thread, including yourself, there is not much left but 2 cents for me, nice work from all parties.
I would just add that playing inside cue ball does not mean inside English, and the ladder can move along the equator left or right.

I will send you a message on low ball aiming and centering the cue, it's great for sighting and tip gap also.

That was a great video; I have some stuff I will share from James Cicero Murphy.

Going back in the dungeon and lurk.

SS.

 

[Mikjary]

Thank you John, I think I am just passing through.

I enjoy this thread so I thought I would throw my 2 cents in.

After the great descriptions in Mike's posts and the other posters in the thread, including yourself, there is not much left but 2 cents for me, nice work from all parties.
I would just add that playing inside cue ball does not mean inside English, and the ladder can move along the equator left or right.

I will send you a message on low ball aiming and centering the cue, it's great for sighting and tip gap also.

That was a great video; I have some stuff I will share from James Cicero Murphy.

Going back in the dungeon and lurk.

SS.

SS,

Where've you been? Don't stop posting, now! We're just getting started on a 30 page thread. It'd probably take that long to explain all that stuff rolling around inside your head. Sooner or later it's either gotta be shared with the rest of us or get surgically removed to relieve the pressure. :grin-square:

I certainly don't mind reading some long posts, if you're game. Things have settled down as John said earlier. We might get a dialogue going without needing a referee. Anyway, I'll be the one lurking.

Best,
Mike

 

[One Pocket John]

Thank you John, I think I am just passing through.

I enjoy this thread so I thought I would throw my 2 cents in.

After the great descriptions in Mike's posts and the other posters in the thread, including yourself, there is not much left but 2 cents for me, nice work from all parties.
I would just add that playing inside cue ball does not mean inside English, and the ladder can move along the equator left or right.

I will send you a message on low ball aiming and centering the cue, it's great for sighting and tip gap also.

That was a great video; I have some stuff I will share from James Cicero Murphy.

Going back in the dungeon and lurk.

SS.

Looking forward to the information Mike.

I call it "staying within the mass of the QB" to me its about the size of a quarter. Cuing outside of the mass can lead to unexpected results and loss of feel. (weight of the QB)

Thanks

John

 

[FranCrimi]

The type of stroke you're all talking about doesn't have to be executed with grip pressure on the thumb and index finger. I can easily duplicate the shot with a loose thumb and index finger and the pressure on the 3rd and 4th fingers.

I find that it's a much safer bet to do it my way because there is less opportunity for twisting the cue. I think once a player can become comfortable in not gripping the cue with the restrictive grip of the thumb and index finger, a whole new feel of straight stroking freedom will open up to them. --- Hard to explain but that's what it feels like.

 

[SmoothStroke]

Looking forward to the information Mike.

I call it "staying within the mass of the QB" to me its about the size of a quarter. Cuing outside of the mass can lead to unexpected results and loss of feel. (weight of the QB)

Thanks

John

I have a few posts about centering the quarter. You are familiar with it John but there are many who are not.
You would be surprised how many A and B players I get that are unaware of the quarter or inside cue ball technique.

Maybe someone new would like to try it out; this may interest them, maybe not.

A good way to get started with a visual of the quarter is to take a centennial ball and face the numbers up. Take a quarter and place it perfectly on the number, balance it, it's not difficult. You will only see the black outline of the number. If you strike inside the black on your quarter you are pretty safe for clean hits. When you strike off the black you better have a straight stroke and no screwdriver twisting action. The game is much easier in the quarter, but you must be able to strike outside the black also.

I think the quarter makes it easier to find center ball, especially for beginners. It’s like landing the space shuttle dead center on the moon, not easy.

If you put a landing pad centered on the moon, it's easier to land in the center of the pad. The quarter is our landing pad on the cue ball.

Put aside everything else that is involved in 1 shot of pool, the game is mainly visual, why not use all visual aids we can that work for us. Not everyone sees things the same, from aiming systems to angles or banks, some can see it natural, some need math, some need both.

For 25 Cents you may see things differently, now that is a cheap lesson.

This may sound crazy but looking at the cue ball as If it were a square is not unheard of, making it tumble instead of roll.

Sincerely:SS

 

[SmoothStroke]

SS,

Where've you been? Don't stop posting, now! We're just getting started on a 30 page thread. It'd probably take that long to explain all that stuff rolling around inside your head. Sooner or later it's either gotta be shared with the rest of us or get surgically removed to relieve the pressure. :grin-square:

I certainly don't mind reading some long posts, if you're game. Things have settled down as John said earlier. We might get a dialogue going without needing a referee. Anyway, I'll be the one lurking.

Best,
Mike

LOL... I never do that LOL thing but that was funny, I did LOL.
You are not the first to talk about my head exploding.

I have 64 folders of pool related subjects with an average of 30 pages each, of course my posts are long winded, I start typing and it keeps going, ok I admit I have a few issues,
I did cut the last few short.

That's a very nice compliment, thank you Mike.

Sincerely:SS

 

[One Pocket John]

SS, its interesting that you should mention your experience with 3C.

I had the pleasure of taking 3C lessons from Harry Sims (RIP). It was a lot of fun watching him work the table.

I took my 3C experience over to pocket billiards and use it for position play on the next shot.

One thing I have learned over the years is that the entire game of pool can be focused on the cue ball and its path and nothing else just assume that the object ball is going to be pocketed.

'til next time

John

 

[3kushn]

SS, its interesting that you should mention your experience with 3C.

I had the pleasure of taking 3C lessons from Harry Sims (RIP). It was a lot of fun watching him work the table.

I took my 3C experience over to pocket billiards and use it for position play on the next shot.

One thing I have learned over the years is that the entire game of pool can be focused on the cue ball and its path and nothing else just assume that the object ball is going to be pocketed.

'til next time

John

Harry was a strong advocate of an upstroke. He "wished he learned it much earlier" in his playing career. Harry learned it from Allen Gilbert and would comment on Sang Lee's extensive use of it. Many many shots he would recommend its use.

Great thread and no flame throwing.

 

[One Pocket John]

Harry was a strong advocate of an upstroke. He "wished he learned it much earlier" in his playing career. Harry learned it from Allen Gilbert and would comment on Sang Lee's extensive use of it. Many many shots he would recommend its use.

Great thread and no flame throwing.

Hey 3K

I really liked Harry, good man and had a good sense of humor. I still have and use the cue he made for me long ago.

Jerry Briesath states that the stroke is like throwing a softball underhanded. This is what I saw the pro's doing. Even though their cue may be elevated on the practice strokes the cue ends up going thru the QB level and on some shots the cue may even rise on finish.
They are just pitching the softball (QB) to home plate (OB) on a roll.

I can see from my practice here at the house that I will have to hit a few thousand balls before this action becomes automatic.

Thanks your comment.

John

 

[Mikjary]

Hey 3K

I really liked Harry, good man and had a good sense of humor. I still have and use the cue he made for me long ago.

Jerry Briesath states that the stroke is like throwing a softball underhanded. This is what I saw the pro's doing. Even though their cue may be elevated on the practice strokes the cue ends up going thru the QB level and on some shots the cue may even rise on finish.
They are just pitching the softball (QB) to home plate (OB) on a roll.

I can see from my practice here at the house that I will have to hit a few thousand balls before this action becomes automatic.

Thanks your comment.

John

Max Eberle talks about it in one his DVDs, too. I use the visual of tossing the cue ball at the object ball several times as I look at the shot and can actually feel my grip loosen as I do this.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

Harry was a strong advocate of an upstroke. He "wished he learned it much earlier" in his playing career. Harry learned it from Allen Gilbert and would comment on Sang Lee's extensive use of it. Many many shots he would recommend its use.

Great thread and no flame throwing.

The upstroke has been panned and dismissed on these forums many times. Even though some of the best in the world have used it, we still can't discuss it without derision.

We have several other posters beside yourself, who know something about it, from whom I'd like to hear more. It's not for everybody, but I think each player should be able to hear all the evidence and decide for themselves.

Best,
Mike

 

[Mikjary]

LOL... I never do that LOL thing but that was funny, I did LOL.
You are not the first to talk about my head exploding.

I have 64 folders of pool related subjects with an average of 30 pages each, of course my posts are long winded, I start typing and it keeps going, ok I admit I have a few issues,
I did cut the last few short.

That's a very nice compliment, thank you Mike.

Sincerely:SS

Michael...I'm ready for the first installment, but you'll have to start at the beginning. No big words and some pictures for me, is all I ask. After all, you're dealing with a pool player or two. :thumbup:

Best,
Mike

 

[One Pocket John]

Michael...I'm ready for the first installment, but you'll have to start at the beginning. No big words and some pictures for me, is all I ask. After all, you're dealing with a pool player or two. :thumbup:

Best,
Mike

:thumbup:

John

 

[One Pocket John]

Max Eberle talks about it in one his DVDs, too. I use the visual of tossing the cue ball at the object ball several times as I look at the shot and can actually feel my grip loosen as I do this.

Best,
Mike

Same here Mike. In bold.

Watching the Mezz tour on the live stream right now.

John