Turning Stone --- Joss Tour and the Mosconi Cup

[one stroke]

Thanks for this, Mike. Good point about Archer. Still a good player, but simply doesn't get it done in the big matches in the late stages of tournaments.

That is correct and also why you can't always look at ratings or rankings to know what a players true speed is

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[BeiberLvr]

4th in the 128 does not mean it's better than 4 th in a 32 player field ,, it still all depends on who the beat and lost too

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Show me where I said to ignore who a player beats and loses against?

That's important information, but so is knowing how deep someone gets in the tournament.

Trust me, if it were a factor, then Archer would not be as high as he is on the scale.

 

[sjm]

That is correct and also why you can't always look at ratings or rankings to know what a players true speed is

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Yes, but you can determine who performs when the chips are down and the stakes are highest by rankings. Fargo ratings don't penalize you for not winning the big matches, and that's why they are misleading.

 

[skip100]

It's a different philosophy but his hand is kind of forced by the diffuse nature of the sport right now. In golf, for example, the major tours got together and allowed the Official World Golf Ranking to decide how much each tournament is worth - and wins are heavily weighted. Players who win or finished 2nd/3rd get a huge bump in the rankings and players who finish lower in the field get almost nothing.

At the same time there are more neutral ratings that simply look at records between players - with similar but not identical results to the OWGR:
http://rankings.golfweek.com/rankings/default.asp?T=world

If you want to look for the person most likely to win or make a deep run in a tournament, the former method is better. If you're looking for consistency, the latter is preferable.

 

[mikepage]

Yes, but you can determine who performs when the chips are down and the stakes are highest by rankings. Fargo ratings don't penalize you for not winning the big matches, and that's why they are misleading.

This is true.

If a player plays great until the finals and always chokes in the finals, Fargo Ratings is going to reflect their actual skill rather than their propensity to keep up their skill for the big match on the TV table.

And to be sure, there are players that handle the pressure well and others not so well.

With that said, I think many of us exaggerate the role of that factor and interpret lots of close-to-chance outcomes as being more significant than they are.

Not to beat on the Archer horse too much. But over the last two years, Archer has played 112 games against SVB, Bergman, and Woodward, and he has a winning record against these three of 59 to 53.

Yes, Archer hasn't had the Marquis finishes recently. But do people really think that's because Johnny Archer can't handle a big match?

Johnny Archer? Really?

It is way more likely just the way the balls roll sometimes. We are talking small sample sizes...

 

[BeiberLvr]

This is true.

If a player plays great until the finals and always chokes in the finals, Fargo Ratings is going to reflect their actual skill rather than their propensity to keep up their skill for the big match on the TV table.

And to be sure, there are players that handle the pressure well and others not so well.

With that said, I think many of us exaggerate the role of that factor and interpret lots of close-to-chance outcomes as being more significant than they are.

Not to beat on the Archer horse too much. But over the last two years, Archer has played 112 games against SVB, Bergman, and Woodward, and he has a winning record against these three of 59 to 53.

Yes, Archer hasn't had the Marquis finishes recently. But do people really think that's because Johnny Archer can't handle a big match?

Johnny Archer? Really?

It is way more likely just the way the balls roll sometimes. We are talking small sample sizes...

It's not rolls. Its old age and fatigue. Archer can beat SVB in the first round. But if it's the finals his chances go way down.

 

[PoolBoy1]

Great Tournament. However, something has to be done with racking. The Finals got embarrassing. Shaw and Deschaine made it boring. There needs to be a rack your own and a time clock on the rack time. 20 seconds should do it. And move the rack up/back to avoid wing ball from flying in constantly. These pros have ways of guaranteeing a ball drop each break. 9 ball is getting too predictable.

 

[one stroke]

Yes, but you can determine who performs when the chips are down and the stakes are highest by rankings. Fargo ratings don't penalize you for not winning the big matches, and that's why they are misleading.

Actually you can't unless you have all the info like a racing form ,,


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[spartan]

Reflections on The Turning Stone Classic (August 20-23, 2015)

I followed Turning Stone very carefully. It was great and the field was deep, nearly as tough as one would expect at a US Open 9-ball event.

Here's how I saw it and, finally, what I think the results tell us about the Joss Tour and about the Mosconi Cup situation.

I The Stage Was Set in a Big Way

A) The Challengers - As usual, many of pool’s superstars, including Shane Van Boening, Dennis Orcullo, Darren Appleton, Thorsten Hohmann, Roberto Gomez, Justin Hall, Mika Immonen, and Corey Deuel went up against the stars of the Joss Tour. Mosconi hopefuls Dominguez, Frost, Shuff, Woodward, Bergman and Archer were also present. Trying to win at Turning Stone has been a losing battle of late for challengers, with the Joss Tour players combining to capture five of the last six Turning Stone titles.

B) The Joss Tour Regulars - The greatest Joss stars, as we know, are Mike Dechaine and Jayson Shaw, who combine to win most of the big titles. Dechaine was the Joss Tour’s dominant player in 2014, but Shaw has been best by far in 2015, including a win at the Turning Stone earlier this year. Dechaine recently had two high finishes at the BCAPL events, ninth in the US Open 10-ball event and second in the US Open 8-ball event, but those were on bar tables and it was tough to know how well it would translate to the big tables. Then again, he came fourth against a monster field at Super Billiards. Former Turning Stone runner up Jeremy Sossei, third at the 2015 Derby City 9-ball, and former Ocean States Champion Tom D’Alfonso are always to be reckoned with in Joss Tour events, too. Earl Strickland was a no show.

II A Freakish Start Followed by Some Semblance of Order

A) Three Big Names Fall Early - In the first round, Hohmann, Dechaine and Appleton fell and the loser bracket became a nightmare for those in search of a Cinderella run. The three would go a combined 21-0 in the first seven rounds of losers bracket play and each would have a top 10 finish, but in Saturday’s final round, Appleton and Hohmann were beaten, each tying for ninth. Only Dechaine would reach the final day to contend with a seriously strong contingent of SVB, Gomez, Hall, Deuel, Shaw, D’Alfonso, and ?Shuff?.

B) The Last Eight - Dechaine and D’Alfonso eliminated Deuel and ?Shuff?, and form held in the winner bracket semis, with Shaw and SVB topping Gomez and Hall, who were then eliminated by Dechaine and D’Alfonso. That left a final four of SVB and three of the Joss Tour’s very best. As always, the Joss Tour players were shining at Turning Stone.

C) The Last Four - Joss Tour rivals Dechaine and D’Alfonso met up in a one-sided affair, with Dechaine cruising. Shaw edged SVB in the hot seat match. The last three were three of the game’s biggest stars, Shane Van Boening, Jayson Shaw and Mike Dechaine.

III The Fight for the Title

A) The Loser Bracket Final - America’s two best squared off. Aside from an exhibition, they’d split at the BCAPL events, with SVB beating Mike in the US Open 10-ball but Mike beating Shane in the US Open 8-ball. It was Mike’s turn. After a first round loss, Mike won twelve straight, reminiscent of Immonen’s 2009 run to the title through the losers bracket at the US Open 9-ball.

B) The Final - In the race to thirteen, Shaw ran out to good leads, but Dechaine kept fighting back, and the match looked like it was about to go 11-11 when Dechaine scratched on a phenomenal shot on the four ball, a great shot that wowed commentator Danny D. Moments later, Shaw completed the 13-10 victory. It was a well played final and undefeated Shaw was a worthy champion.

IV The Takeaways

A) The Joss Tour - Once again, the Joss Tour contingent reminded all comers that it is the strongest regional tour in America, and possibly the strongest regional tour in American history, taking the first, second and fourth spots. A year ago, the Joss Tour was not represented on Team USA, a grave injustice that I hope won’t be repeated this year.

B) Jayson Shaw - The rise of Shaw can’t be taken lightly. Jayson is on a tear right now, and is a serious contender anytime and anywhere. His raw talent is simply scary, even when he doesn’t win. As incredible as his Turning Stone three-peat is, those who have followed him this year know he a) ran 227 balls in qualifications for the Derby City 14.1, ultimately finishing second and b) appeared about to win the final at Super Billiards Expo when he went wrong on a 7-ball at 12-12, double hill. Jayson’s for real, and must be counted as one of the world’s very best right now. Of the Europeans, I’d only rate Feijen and Appleton higher, and not by much.

C) Mosconi - SVB and Dechaine reinforced that they are still America’s two best rotation-games players, but Justin Hall, second at the US Open 10-ball, fifth this weekend at Turning Stone seventh at the last US Open 9-ball, and the only overachiever on last year’s Team USA, reminded us he’s not very far behind, with his only losses at Turning Stone to Shaw and Dechaine. Corey Deuel had a nice tournament and improved his credentials for being on Team USA, and the same can be said for Brandon Shuff.

In contrast, Mosconi hopefuls Dominguez, Frost, Woodward, Bergman, Archer and Sossei all failed to reach the final day and weakened their cases for selection. Archer's terrible 2015, which follows a poor 2014, continues and I wonder whether he's even a candidate for inclusion at this point.

The Mosconi picture is a tricky one, with three guys so obvious it almost doesn’t merit discussion in SVB, Dechaine and Hall. The fourth and fifth spots are, however, not easy to pick right now and it may come down to the US Open 9-ball. I know there is some ranking system that comes into play here, but I'm not even sure who I want to see filling this team out at this point. I'll sit back and watch for now.

So there you have it!

As always, excellent report and objective analysis from the walking pool encyclopadia, sjm
You would be great in commentary box. We need good commentators. Too many commentators either do not know enough about players or do not know format of tourney they are commentating or just talk about food, fishing, their own life stories

 

[sjm]

As always, excellent report and objective analysis from the walking pool encyclopadia, sjm
You would be great in commentary box. We need good commentators. Too many commentators either do not know enough about players or do not know format of tourney they are commentating or just talk about food, fishing, their own life stories

Thanks for the kind words, Spartan. As for commentary, September and October will bring us some of the stars of the commentary profession with a) Jim Wych and others at the World Cup of Pool and b) Mark Wilson and others at the US Open 9-ball, so sit back and enjoy.