California Legislation on Ivory Ban

But think of all the human victims of selling ivory!!! The horror...the horror...

Here's a list of all the victims:






























































See, SOMETHING had to be done, SOMETHING, ANYTHING.....now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Don't forget to address the controllers as "honorable.")


Jeff Livingston

PS You wanted a solution, not a gag post? OK, the solution: There are more cattle than elephants in the world and the cattle aren't in any danger of extinction, even though humans kill millions more of them with factory-like processes than kill elephants. Therein lies the peaceful, rational solution for the ivory "problem."
 
Those that want to ban the sale of ivory have already been advocating a total ban on ownership of ivory in any form including antiquities and museum collections.
 
PDX you are correct about the 13.3% tax on income however sales tax is another 11% -13%. Many user fees and additional insurance costs because of uninsured drivers, uninsured users of the heath care and so on. State tax all in, is well beyond 30%. I agree elephant ivory should not be sold. My cue is a Joss handmade with Wooly mammoth ivory. Absolutely no beneficial impact leaving mammoth ivory in the ice. But CA bans ALL ivory. Again it is about the absurdity of the stat govt. decisions. So I simply will avoid traveling to CA. They loose the revenue. I spend my money elsewhere. All is well.
 
its been coming for years and if you didnt think so you are blind. so prepare for it.
if you are worried sell your ivory cues now while people will still buy them and get ones without it.

it isnt about liberals its about saving elephants.
they have had ivory bans and the trade is still happening in this country with makers still using it. so this is the next step.

when i was younger it was illegal to own any gold that was not in rare collectibles or jewelry.
you were required to sell it to the govt for 35 or 40 an ounce.
 
Folly

maha said:
it isnt about liberals its about saving elephants.
they have had ivory bans and the trade is still happening in this country with makers still using it.
Click to expand...

Please explain your claim that using ivory in this country, the United States, harms elephants.

Since there has been a ban on the importation of ivory into the U.S. any ivory within our borders is so-called pre-ban ivory and is not sourced from recent kills of elephants.

Further than that, the market price for ivory in this country is less than one-fifth that of the prices being paid in the Asian market so there is no incentive to even attempt to illegally import new ivory into the U.S.

So once again, pleas explain your claim how a complete ban on the sale of any item containing ivory with save the lives of elephants.
 
This isn't that complicated. The ivory trade is made of supply and demand. This law attempts to restrict both in the largest state in the country and the eighth largest economy in the world. Of course it will save the lives of elephants because it will make it harder to use and trade in ivory.

Perhaps you don't think the benefits are worth the costs - that's fine. But to contend that a ban on ivory will have no impact on elephants is totally illogical.
 
I think this is the wrong type of legislation.......but it is what it is........oh well, it will only make my Ed Prewitt cue more unique & valuable unless he relocates out of the state......maybe I could get one of the last ivory joint cues to leave his shop since the effective date of the CA ban precludes ordering a cue.....anyway, I am still waiting on a pair of shafts Ed's hopefully still making that match my cue and of course, the ferrules are ivory.

Matt B.
 
neonlight said:
PDX you are correct about the 13.3% tax on income however sales tax is another 11% -13%. Many user fees and additional insurance costs because of uninsured drivers, uninsured users of the heath care and so on. State tax all in, is well beyond 30%. I agree elephant ivory should not be sold. My cue is a Joss handmade with Wooly mammoth ivory. Absolutely no beneficial impact leaving mammoth ivory in the ice. But CA bans ALL ivory. Again it is about the absurdity of the stat govt. decisions. So I simply will avoid traveling to CA. They loose the revenue. I spend my money elsewhere. All is well.
Click to expand...

Should beef also not be sold, in order to protect cattle from extinction?

Jeff Livingston
 
skip100 said:
But to contend that a ban on ivory will have no impact on elephants is totally illogical.
Click to expand...

A ban on ivory in the U.S. will have zero effect for the reasons I posted in a prior response in this thread and I would encourage those with an opposing opinion read some accurate unbiased objective information on the subject.
 
skip100 said:
This isn't that complicated. The ivory trade is made of supply and demand. This law attempts to restrict both in the largest state in the country and the eighth largest economy in the world. Of course it will save the lives of elephants because it will make it harder to use and trade in ivory.
.
Click to expand...

Of course? Explain please in economic terms how the ban saves elephants' lives (when they're going extinct for their ivory with all the bans in place NOW) It is harder to use and trade ivory now because of the bans, but for some reason it is still traded and elephants are still killed for it, with the rest of the animal usually wasted and the herd harmed.

The reason is economic reality. Prices change due to circumstances, many unnecessary.

I'm gonna go eat a hamburger today for very little cost and no chance of finishing off a species and no chance of taking away someone else's opportunity to eat a hamburger, too. It's not illegal to kill a cow one owns or to sell parts of it to others....hint hint.....hello?


Jeff Livingston
 
Type79 said:
A ban on ivory in the U.S. will have zero effect for the reasons I posted in a prior response in this thread and I would encourage those with an opposing opinion read some accurate unbiased objective information on the subject.
Click to expand...

Actually, the ban will raise the price and the profits (think drug war), so the violent underground will still trade it or maybe even trade it more, thus the killings might INcrease, not decrease. Without property rights, there are no good incentives to protect the supply for long-term gain.

Economics is like that.


Jeff Livingston
 
You have no concept of supply and demand when the demanders would be willing to buy the ivory at 100x, 1000x or more the current price. So what do you think that will do? It will influence the poachers to go MORE into the danger of getting the ivory. IN other words, this will be the death of the species.

All the tonnage that was destroyed could have been sold and it would have increased the availability, and therefore lessened the poaching effort. But the funds could have went to more rangers, with better equipment, etc.. You could have done so much more to protect them, but instead the liberals want to kill off the species. Which they will, and it will be on the heads of all those who thought these ridiculous rules were going to stop the trade.

The problems with the liberal train of thought, is they think A- people will stop doing things when they "make a law". B- When someone breaks the law, liberals smack them on the hands and send them back in. C- They constantly underestimate their adversaries when it comes to things like this. Enforce the laws you have and increase the penalties, include death at some point to the poachers and smugglers. Stop living in some fantasy world where you think everyone gives a crap about your rules and conservation.

JV

skip100 said:
This isn't that complicated. The ivory trade is made of supply and demand. This law attempts to restrict both in the largest state in the country and the eighth largest economy in the world. Of course it will save the lives of elephants because it will make it harder to use and trade in ivory.

Perhaps you don't think the benefits are worth the costs - that's fine. But to contend that a ban on ivory will have no impact on elephants is totally illogical.
Click to expand...
 
This is another example of government overreach. They have effectively taken the value out of people's personal property without compensating them for the loss.

I am appalled by the senseless destruction of those beautiful animals. But do I think that banning all ivory in the Land of Fruits and Nuts, or the entire country for that matter, will have any impact? Hell no! The market for illegally harvest ivory is not the US, therefore the actions of our pandering politicians will have no impact on the horrific killing of these magnificent creatures.

For the record I own no cues with ivory and have no desire to have to. But I think that people who do, with ivory legally obtained, should not be subjected to the whims and fancies of an out of control government.
 
chefjeff said:
Actually, the ban will raise the price and the profits (think drug war), so the violent underground will still trade it or maybe even trade it more, thus the killings might INcrease, not decrease. Without property rights, there are no good incentives to protect the supply for long-term gain.

Economics is like that.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

Here are some simple facts:
The importation of Ivory into and out of the U.S. has been banned since 1989.
There is an ample supply of pre-ban legal ivory in the U.S. to supply the cue, music, knife, and gun industries far into the future.
The market price for pre-ban ivory in the U.S. is less than 1/5 of ivory elsewhere in the world, most notably in Asia removing any incentive to sell illegal ivory in North America.

If you want to eliminate elephant poaching, get involved in a positive way to directly work with groups to protect elephants in their native habitats and arrest and prosecute the poachers.

Making it illegal to own or trade something legally obtained that will have no effect on eliminating elephant poaching is folly.
 
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Type79 said:
Here are some simple facts:
Ivory has been banned in the U.S. since 1989.
There is an ample supply of pre-ban legal ivory in the U.S. to supply the cue, music, knife, and gun industries far into the future.
The market price for pre-ban ivory in the U.S. is less than 1/5 of ivory elsewhere in the world, most notably in Asia removing any incentive to sell illegal ivory in North America.

If you want to eliminate elephant poaching, get involved in a positive way to directly work with groups to protect elephants in their native habitats and arrest and prosecute the poachers.

Making it illegal to own or trade something legally obtained that will have no effect on eliminating elephant poaching is folly.
Click to expand...

re the bolded....That won't work long-term. Without property rights, that is the right to own elephants as others own cattle, nothing changes. How will those groups "save" the elephants without a market system?: by govt force. That has a bad record of doing good for long.

"Moo" and "baaaaaa," can be heard all around the world and will be for the long-term future....for a very specific economic reason. Maybe the groups trying to save the elephants might wanna look into that reason and exploit it for the species' sake.


Jeff Livingston
 
Good Intentions Do Not Excuse Stupid Legislation.......................

Joe V. was right.........the price is going to soar for illegal ivory........this will only make poaching more financially attractive........That will only "encourage" the continued slaughter of elephants, not slow it down.

Matt B.
 
so which is it? The government is impotent to effect change in supply and demand? Or the government will be so successful in changing supply and demand that prices will soar? You can't have it both ways.
 
Lost in all the debate about a law here in California that was put forward by a nit wit, is the fact that elephants face big obstacles to their future without the ivory problem.

Farmers in Africa are no friend of the elephant. Is Cali gonna ban farmers in Africa too? This law is unconstitutional and is making people's investments that were done lawfully now unlawful.

This is the environmental lobby running wild over folks rights.
 
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