California Legislation on Ivory Ban

Bavafongoul said:
Poolplayr.......your approach presumes guilt before innocence........."that they are only using legal ivory" which implies......not a reader inference either.......that some of the ivory the USA cue-maker uses wasn't......Come On......It's Innocent Until Proven Guilty........that's how the Courts are supposed to work.

As long as a cue-maker purchased pre-ban ivory and has documentation backing it up, then all of the ivory in the pool cues that cue-maker builds is presumed to be legal pre-ban until you can prove otherwise. Under your theory, the burden of proof shifts to proving that all of the ivory in a cue was legal ivory which is absurd when documentation exists that it wasn't. Oh, I know, it could be faked.......Jeez, okay then, take a core sample form the cue-maker's inventory of ivory or else more strictly regulate the distributors of pre-ban ivory. You can regulate their activities and periodically random sample their ivory inventory....all of this will result in a better marketplace and better control over pre-ban ivory that's allowed in other states besides Oregon & California.

If you have doubts the cue-maker has only used pre-ban ivory, it's because you are on a witch hunt. Pre-ban ivory simply needs to be better regulated on its specific allowable usage and the method of distribution of pre-ban ivory ban........it should not be presumed that some of the ivory in a cue might be illegal when the cue-maker has obeyed the regulation.........JMO.
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My point is not that cue makers are using illegal ivory and you know it. My point was simply that there is no way to know or to verify with them or anyone else (in opposition to your point that there was a way to know). There just simply isn't. Ivory is something that cannot be reliably regulated to ensure that it is legal at any step along the way. It just isn't possible, particularly as it gets nearer to the end user/craftsman such as a cue maker since its form gets significantly changed and there is significant loss/waste produced and because legal ivory looks/smells/tastes just like illegal ivory does.

But in the end it really doesn't matter whether all ivory that has ever been used in every cue ever made has all been legal ivory. The fact of the matter is that as long as ivory has much value, the elephants will be poached into extinction. And as long as there is a legal market where ivory is allowed to be bought and sold, it will continue to have significant value. It just doesn't get any more simple than this, as much as it sucks for those that appreciate ivory and who would be legal and responsible about using it, owning it, trading in it, or harvesting or not further harvesting it.

To save the elephants, ivory must be made to have no value--there just isn't any other way. And the only way to make ivory have no value is to make it completely illegal to buy and sell in all markets globally. You may not like this fact, and I don't either, but it doesn't change that it is still a fact. Now we just need to deal with it instead of continuing to pretend we can have an ivory trade as well as elephants--it simply isn't possible. If you think otherwise and believe you have the way to prevent the poaching and ultimate extinction of elephants as long as ivory has any significant value then I am all ears.
 
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Poolplaya9 said:
I am not saying I did the right thing in this case (still struggle with deciding what was right or wrong in this case), nor can I promise to be absolutely perfect in the future. I can say that I do not intend to buy anything else with ivory in it in the future, and truth be told, there is no reason to ever need to. We can get all the quality or good looks we want with other materials (contrary to what some will try to argue).
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Cool. I too have no further plans for ivory.

IMO, cues put a very small dent in ivory. I know of two makers that are still whittling on the same tusk that they have had for years. A tusk generally goes a long way. Most buy from the same sources that have been in the business for a long while and I highly doubt any laws have been broken. For a cue maker, there is just too much to lose.

With all that has gone on concerning an ivory ban, it has caused me, and others, to ponder the future. As I said, I have no real use for it and there are other materials the maker has on the palette that will look just as nice. That said, I don't take losing my rights lightly. Especially when they are trampled on just to appease special interest groups.

It's not that easy as driving down the cost. In parts of the world, ivory holds both religious and cultural significance that may never change. It is not a coincidence that California and New York have imposed the most restrictive laws. They also have the most diverse multi-cultural populations. One only has to walk through shops in parts of Los Angeles and San Francisco to see what I mean.

I don't know where the solution is or whether we'll ever get there. For that matter, with an African population reported to be in excess of 450K, they are hardly endangered yet. That should give the world time to educate, provide the necessary resources to enforce (only approximately 5% of the sea port containers in East Africa are currently inspected), incentivize governments to prosecute to the fullest extent, and continue pressing for cooperation of nations in combating the smuggling of ivory. If we can't do these things, then there is no US law that strong to turn the elephant slaughter around. JMHO.
 
Yeah sure lets make an outright ban on ivory. Totally illegal in all forms.

That worked out great for the war on drugs.

Better yet let's ban alcohol because so many people are killed each year. Who cares about the law abiding citizens who don't drink and drive? We must do it to save lives.

Let's ban all firearms regardless of caliber or magazine size. Because people use guns to kill other people. Who cares about the 200 million gun owners who have never shot anyone? We must do it to save lives.

I really just don't understand people who think a law being enacted will change anything.

Drugs are illegal.
DUI is illegal.
Shooting people is illegal (unless justifiable).

Yet magically an ivory ban is going to save the elephants. SMH, you people just don't get it.
 
HQueen said:
Yeah sure lets make an outright ban on ivory. Totally illegal in all forms.

That worked out great for the war on drugs.

Better yet let's ban alcohol because so many people are killed each year. Who cares about the law abiding citizens who don't drink and drive? We must do it to save lives.

Let's ban all firearms regardless of caliber or magazine size. Because people use guns to kill other people. Who cares about the 200 million gun owners who have never shot anyone? We must do it to save lives.

I really just don't understand people who think a law being enacted will change anything.

Drugs are illegal.
DUI is illegal.
Shooting people is illegal (unless justifiable).

Yet magically an ivory ban is going to save the elephants. SMH, you people just don't get it.
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I don't think ivory is like drugs or alcohol where if they were illegal most of the same people would still be trying to get it on the black market which actually drives up the price (same demand, less access and supply). If it were illegal, most people would stop trying to acquire it. And if few were trying to acquire it, it would hold little value. And if it holds little value, the poaching stops.

Like you, I don't like the solution though. In fact, I hate it. But I hate it slightly less than not having elephants.

But if you have a solution that stops poaching and the eventual extinction of elephants while at the same time allowing ivory to be a commodity of high value that is legally bought and sold then I am all ears.

And if your position is just that you want the right to buy and sell ivory even if it is going to cause the extinction of elephants then just say so. You are entitled to that opinion.
 
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Poolplaya9 said:
There are two problems with having ivory that is grandfathered in and legal. The first is that it there just isn't any practical and reliable way in most cases to tell pre-ban ivory from the banned ivory. There just simply isn't. And as you can imagine everybody always claims that their ivory (or item with ivory in it) is pre-ban even if the reality is that it came from an elephant poached illegally last year. It is way too easy to slip newly poached illegal ivory into the legal market and supply chain because there simply isn't a practical and effective way to reliably be able to differentiate between the two.

The second problem is that poaching will continue as long as ivory has any value, and ivory will always continue to have value as long as it can still be bought and sold relatively easily (whether or not it is legal to do so). If some ivory is grandfathered in, then ivory is certain to still retain value, particularly when it is allowed to be bought and sold. As long as there is any value to ivory then the poaching will continue.

As much as it sucks there are really only two choices here. If you want to save elephants, you must completely outlaw all buying and selling of all ivory regardless of source. This will almost completely kill the value of ivory and the market for it which is what will be required to stop the poaching. And it is possible that even this may not be enough and you may end up having to outlaw even the possession of any and all ivory as well, only time would tell. Only when ivory is made worthless and valueless through laws will the poaching stop.

Or you can allow anything short of outlawing all buying and selling of all ivory and have all wild elephants extinct within a relatively short few years. Period, end of story, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

It is a tough choice for sure, and all comes down to what is more important to you:
--the ability to buy and sell some ivory
or
--having wild elephants on the earth instead of extinct

It is impossible to have both so pick one and get ready to deal with the consequences which really suck in both cases. You just have to decide which one sucks very slightly less than the alternative in your opinion.
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You think that making something illegal makes that thing valueless? Are you effing daft?

It didn't work for:

-Alcohol during prohibition
-Guns in Chicago
-Jared and Pedophiles
-Automatic weapons anywhere
-Rhino horn
-Crack
-Meth
-Prostitution
-Dog Fighting

The long and short of it is that there is, has been and always will be a market for ivory.

The irony of it is that all of the destruction of ivory, all of the legislation to outlaw all ivory is counterproductive. The way to devalue ivory as a material is to flood the markets with it. Which could have been done, but the damn do-gooders insisted that their governments burn and crush the stockpiles.
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
You think that making something illegal makes that thing valueless? Are you effing daft?

It didn't work for:

-Alcohol during prohibition
-Guns in Chicago
-Jared and Pedophiles
-Automatic weapons anywhere
-Rhino horn
-Crack
-Meth
-Prostitution
-Dog Fighting

The long and short of it is that there is, has been and always will be a market for ivory.

The irony of it is that all of the destruction of ivory, all of the legislation to outlaw all ivory is counterproductive. The way to devalue ivory as a material is to flood the markets with it. Which could have been done, but the damn do-gooders insisted that their governments burn and crush the stockpiles.
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What it comes down to is a species of animal that is being slaughtered, by man, for money. Plain and simple. The only reason we use ivory in cues was due to the fact that cue balls at one point where made from ivory. Cheap synthetics and ivory substitutes where not readily available.

There where millions of buffalo roaming the US at one point. It sure didn't take long for their population to decrease to saddening numbers.
 
PDX said:
What it comes down to is a species of animal that is being slaughtered, by man, for money. Plain and simple. The only reason we use ivory in cues was due to the fact that cue balls at one point where made from ivory. Cheap synthetics and ivory substitutes where not readily available.

There where millions of buffalo roaming the US at one point. It sure didn't take long for their population to decrease to saddening numbers.
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Well, maybe, but why was ivory used for billiards balls in the first place?

It's interesting to see pool players vilify the use of ivory in the billiards industry. Plastics as we know them came about directly from the billiard industry...so one could argue that the billiards industry did more to save elephants than any movement before or since.

I guess it's time for a bit of a history lesson since you bring up american bison.

Yes, yes, yes, mankind has exerted a toll on many species. The truth of the american bison (not a true buffalo, btw) is that private sector actually saved them. In essence they were hunted to extinction (under 600 estimated at one time). All of the bison herds are descendants of bison that were captured by ranchers.

So, now, in this country, we have the third largest bovine mammal in pretty decent numbers. High enough numbers to where we could allow these behemoth, angry, aggressive animals to retake their habitat...which isn't where any of the herds live. The two largest herds live in montana and wyoming. These areas were at the extreme edge of the bison habitat. Bison were most prevalent in the midwest, but are kept in Yellowstone and Moiese. Should we let these bison run back through the cities of the plains?

I bring this up because there is a lot of evidence that most elephants that are killed are actually killed because they intrude upon human populations, they terrorize civilization. We westerners are fed that they are only hunted for their teeth, but in actuality they are perhaps mostly culled because of the havoc they wreak.

It is like the reintroduction of wolves to MT and Yellowstone. I lived in MT for 25yrs and I don't know one native montanan who is genuinely happy about the wolf population being anything other than zero. I know of no benefit. The elk herds are more stressed and less healthy, the ranchers lose sheep and cows.

The gray wolf is not what is depicted in 'Never Cry Wolf', which is such a well-done disneyfied POS adapted from a book full of admitted lies. The rodent population has not dwindled at all in MT since the wolves were brought back.

Not all that is popular is true.

It really isn't always as simple as what the loud people claim.
 
Poolplaya9.........Why do we need to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the ivory inside a pool cue made last month, last year, or next month or next year, contained ivory that can be proven through scientific analysis to not be poached by age dating?

I submit if the company that sells the raw ivory is properly supervised, licensed, and audited, then the likelihood of that firm deliberately introducing smuggled ivory into its raw ivory inventory that gets sold is extremely low.

Limit the numbers of firms that can sell legal ivory and supervise these firms strictly & closely, then the primary issue becomes the smuggling of illegal ivory which has nothing to do with the sale of the legal ivory and these earlier referred to firms.

Since we both know the ivory going in the pool cues made by USA cue-makers isn't poached ivory unless the ivory they purchased thinking it was pre-ban ivory actually was illegal ivory and they were duped.......since that hasn't happened yet that I know of............Anyone got a real example to cite?

Anyway, since that's apparently never happened, and since USA cue-makers are not buying smuggled ivory from the black market, the real emphasis should be and needs to be on the firms selling raw legal ivory. License those firms, make them submit to stringent accounting standards and quarterly reporting and random audits, that's how you address the potential of any ivory going into a cue being poached ivory. Why punish the innocent.....USA cue-makers, and case in point, CA cue-makers.

After July 1, 2016 they can't sell any cues containing ivory.....no ferrules, joints, rings, inlays, zippo....nada......zilch.........they cannot use ivory in the pool cues they make since they reside in California where their sales are recorded and taxed.......CA cue-makers will not be able to deliver orders the way the customer wants their cues made.......so are customers just going to say...."Sure, Mr. Cue-maker, just use Juma....I don't care.".

When you spend a lot of money for a custom cue, you are going to have it made the way you want, not the way the regulatory agency says, i.e., State of California.........CA cue-makers are going to lose business because they cannot sell or use ivory regardless of where the customer resides.......CA law regulates all CA cue-makers........sorry guys but you can always take it up with the legislature. Even tying to run sales through a 3rd party or a business subsidiary licensed to do business in some other state does not relieve or circumvent responsibility to comply with the CA ivory ban for CA cue-makers........AB-96 is pretty all-inclusive.

Matt B.
 
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PDX said:
What it comes down to is a species of animal that is being slaughtered, by man, for money. Plain and simple. The only reason we use ivory in cues was due to the fact that cue balls at one point where made from ivory. Cheap synthetics and ivory substitutes where not readily available.

There where millions of buffalo roaming the US at one point. It sure didn't take long for their population to decrease to saddening numbers.
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Making something illegal absolutely always substantially hurts the market for it, the only question is to what extent. Sometimes it all but kills it completely, and sometimes the market remains relatively robust even though drastically reduced. I think ivory is one of those things where being illegal would take most of the demand and therefore the value away. It would come close to completely killing the market imo.

If you know you can never sell something, many people are going to stop buying it, which causes the prices to fall. Things tend to have less value when all you can do is look at them but never sell them. And much of the time ivory is a prestige and status material, which means it needs to be seen by others for it to have prestige and status benefits. And if it is illegal to possess, you probably are going to be hiding it and not letting anyone see it so it loses all prestige/status value. And if it is legal to possess but just not sell, well it still loses a lot of the value derived from status/prestige because it starts to be looked down on. This loss of prestige/status of the material would make it substantially less valuable. And most people aren't going to risk jail time and large fines illegally buying ivory when there are other substances that would work just as well for what they use ivory for.

Will there still be people who want ivory and are willing to pay for it even though they can never legally sell it and it carries little prestige and status? Of course, I already said there would be a few. But the market would be so small it likely would no longer be worth it to the poachers to take the risks and efforts efforts required to poach elephants, or at the least they would need to poach far less elephants to meet the demand and as a result their population may get to stabilize or even start to increase instead of decreasing at a substantial rate as it is now.

As for flooding the market, I also already explained in post #54 why that likely wouldn't work at all, and at best it would only be temporary if it did. I don't think there are enough ivory stashes to be able to hurt pricing enough that poaching would no longer be appealing. But even if there were, there is only a finite supply of excess and it would all get snatched up and before long you would be right back in the same position with high prices leading to increased poaching.

The only thing I can think of that will possibly stop poaching and the eventual extinction of the elephants is if ivory permanently had little value. And the only thing I can think of that would cause ivory to permanently have little value would be if it were made illegal globally.

But if you have a solution that stops the poaching and the eventual extinction of elephants but at the same time allows ivory to remain a high valued commodity that can can be legally bought and sold like it is now then I am all ears. Flooding the market wouldn't work, and it certainly wouldn't work for very long or be an actual solution (best case is it delays the extinction by a few years, big deal). Anything else?

And if your position is just that you want the right to buy and sell ivory even if it is going to cause the extinction of elephants and that is more important to you then the survival of elephants then just say so. You are entitled to that opinion.
 
Bavafongoul said:
Poolplaya9.........Why do we need to prove beyond any reasonable doubt that the ivory inside a pool cue made last month, last year, or next month or next year, contained ivory that can be proven through scientific analysis to not be poached by age dating?

I submit if the company that sells the raw ivory is properly supervised, licensed, and audited, then the likelihood of that firm deliberately introducing smuggled ivory into its raw ivory inventory that gets sold is extremely low.

Limit the numbers of firms that can sell legal ivory and supervise these firms strictly & closely, then the primary issue becomes the smuggling of illegal ivory which has nothing to do with the sale of the legal ivory and these earlier referred to firms.

Since we both know the ivory going in the pool cues made by USA cue-makers isn't poached ivory unless the ivory they purchased thinking it was pre-ban ivory actually was illegal ivory and they were duped.......since that hasn't happened yet that I know of............Anyone got a real example to cite?

Anyway, since that's apparently never happened, and since USA cue-makers are not buying smuggled ivory from the black market, the real emphasis should be and needs to be on the firms selling raw legal ivory. License those firms, make them submit to stringent accounting standards and quarterly reporting and random audits, that's how you address the potential of any ivory going into a cue being poached ivory. Why punish the innocent.....USA cue-makers, and case in point, CA cue-makers.

After July 1, 2016 they can't sell any cues containing ivory.....no ferrules, joints, rings, inlays, zippo....nada......zilch.........they cannot use ivory in the pool cues they make since they reside in California where their sales are recorded and taxed.......CA cue-makers will not be able to deliver orders the way the customer wants their cues made.......so are customers just going to say...."Sure, Mr. Cue-maker, just use Juma....I don't care.".

When you spend a lot of money for a custom cue, you are going to have it made the way you want, not the way the regulatory agency says, i.e., State of California.........CA cue-makers are going to lose business because they cannot sell or use ivory regardless of where the customer resides.......CA law regulates all CA cue-makers........sorry guys but you can always take it up with the legislature. Even tying to run sales through a 3rd party or a business subsidiary licensed to do business in some other state does not relieve or circumvent responsibility to comply with the CA ivory ban for CA cue-makers........AB-96 is pretty all-inclusive.

Matt B.
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As I said, as long as the price of ivory is high, elephants will continue to be poached and that ivory will be sold on the black market or be "laundered" into the legal market (which is exceptionally easy to do). You will never, ever be able to get rid of the black market no matter how well you regulate things as long as ivory is valuable, and as long as there is a black market the poaching will continue and the elephant numbers will also continue to dwindle until extinction.
 
Well, it just sounds like your dead set on being a pessimist about this and that of course helps keep you feeling all the more ardent that the regulated sale of legal ivory that's already been here in the USA for decades would never be successful......even though USA cue-makers have yet to be associated or named in any way with using illegal ivory when making a pool cue.......Yup, I can see your point so much more clear now.....you convinced me.......gotta dash now and write some for sale threads and start listing my pool cues......I don't have the bravado to think of using them as kindling.

Oh wait, I have two more cues underway right now with Bob and Jerry.....makes no sense to sell my current cues when I have more ivory cues coming......You know, now that I think about it a little more, I'm going to go with my original position......you did have a good point though......what was it again?

That's right......it will never work.....well, that about sums it up for most folks but I prefer to use reason and logic so I'm sticking with my original position...........Legal ivory does not contribute to the slaughter of elephants and it can be easily regulated.......you simply register all the legal ivory in circulation....... everything.......by lbs and ozs and by location and owner.......mandatory federal reporting......I mean the ivory already here in the states isn't some buried pirate treasure.........then you set up monthly usage reporting........it's really much simpler than you think......this is already being done with explosives and hazardous bio-materials, etc. that involve mandatory reporting of inventory and changes thereto.

Anyway, I've enjoyed reading your posts but this is obviously a dead end since I haven't any rebuttal for it will never work..........that's a way too convincing argument you got there.

Matt B.
 
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Bavafongoul said:
Well, it just sounds like your dead set on being a pessimist about this and that of course helps keep you feeling all the more ardent that the regulated sale of legal ivory that's already been here in the USA for decades would never be successful......even though USA cue-makers have yet to be associated or named in any way with using illegal ivory when making a pool cue.......Yup, I can see your point so much more clear now.....you convinced me.......gotta dash now and write some for sale threads and start listing my pool cues......I don't have the bravado to think of using them as kindling.

Oh wait, I have two more cues underway right now with Bob and Jerry.....makes no sense to sell my current cues when I have more ivory cues coming......You know, now that I think about it a little more, I'm going to go with my original position......you did have a good point though......what was it again?

That's right......it will never work.....well, that about sums it up for most folks but I prefer to use reason and logic so I'm sticking with my original position...........Legal ivory does not contribute to the slaughter of elephants and it can be easily regulated.......you simply register all the legal ivory in circulation....... everything.......by lbs and ozs and by location and owner.......mandatory federal reporting......I mean the ivory already here in the states isn't some buried pirate treasure.........then you set up monthly usage reporting........it's really much simpler than you think......this is already being done with explosives and hazardous bio-materials, etc. that involve mandatory reporting of inventory and changes thereto.

Anyway, I've enjoyed reading your posts but this is obviously a dead end since I haven't any rebuttal for it will never work..........that's a way too convincing argument you got there.

Matt B.
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If you think USA cue makers have never used illegal ivory you must be terribly naive. As I recall one of their suppliers was busted for selling illegal ivory (in which case obviously some cue makers got and used some) but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that it happens. And not just with cue makers, it happens everywhere (although certainly worse in some areas than others).

And ivory cannot be well regulated, ever. If you think it can you are so blinded by bias that logic is the last thing on earth you are using. Care to explain how it could be done? Forget about the whole market, just explain how it could be done with even one single cue maker.

There is too much variance in waste in the use of ivory which makes it too difficult to compare what say a cue maker sold in his cues verses what he can demonstrate he bought legally. And how would an auditor find out how much he even used in his cues anyway? Track down every cue the cue maker sold with ivory in it for the year and pry out all the ivory inlays in every one of them and weigh them all up and then compare it to the cue makers purchase order for ivory? And how would the auditor even know how many cues with ivory in them the cue maker sold that year anyway? That's right, he would have to take the cue makers word on how many and where they are. As if someone using illegal ivory is going to mention all of the cues with ivory they actually made and sold and make it easy to figure out that he is usually illegal ivory. Nope, he made sure to sell some of them cash and didn't list them in his books and he damn sure isn't going to tell the ivory auditor about them.

I can assure you, I could take illegal ivory to cue makers and if it is a really good price a whole bunch of them are going to buy it. Some will do it even if I told them it wasn't legal ivory and a bunch more just won't ask. And for others I might have to lie and say it is old ivory that has been in the family for 60 years and give some lame story about how it came into the family and that is going to be good enough for them and they aren't going to require any proof that it is legal either. And why wouldn't they buy it? There is zero way to tell where the ivory on their work bench came from as long as the make sure they don't have 1000 pounds on hand when they can only show they have ever bought 10 pounds from a legal source. I'm using cue makers as an example since we are familiar with them but it is the same story anywhere that uses ivory. There is no way to track legal from illegal ivory once it is no longer a whole tusk (and it isn't fool proof as a whole tusk for that matter).

Anyway, we know for a fact that there is no way to keep illegal ivory out of the market. We know for a fact that there is no way to even remotely accurately track and audit ivory use. It simply cannot be regulated well. Illegal ivory will always come into the market because it is extremely easy to do and always will be because it is impossible to tell legal ivory from illegal ivory. And we know for a fact that given all this, the poachers are going to keep supplying the illegal ivory and the elephant numbers will keep dwindling until they are gone.

I will ask you again, as long as ivory is valuable, how do you think we can keep poachers from killing them and wiping them out? I've clearly explained that ivory cannot accurately be inventoried or accounted for due to a number of reasons so it cannot be accomplished through any regulation of the trade. So any idea on how else it could be done? Or is it that you just don't care if they disappear and prefer to make lame suggestions about regulating and other nonsense that will make no difference whatsoever rather than just admitting that you just really don't care what happens as long as you can continue to have access to your beloved ivory which is your one and only concern? Is that your real feelings about it? Serious question.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
I will ask you again, as long as ivory is valuable, how do you think we can keep poachers from killing them and wiping them out?
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This is a question to be asked of the people of Asia as it is problem for the Asian market where Ivory is being sold for $1,500 a pound not the U.S. where it has a market value of under $200.
 
I'm a cue maker. I've been using ivory in my cues since 1998.

To the people who say "There is no reason to use ivory anymore".
That's your opinion, there are many who disagree, as do I.
My opinion is the best way to save elephants is to protect them where they live. You cannot "get rid of the demand" for ivory. What could be done is hiring an army of wildlife police. Make the penalty for killing an elephant illegally so brutal many poachers would make a career change, like death by firing squad.
Ivory has been used for crafting and beautifying objects for thousands of years. Yet somehow a law is going to change what a person desires? Whether it's for a cue, gun, netsuke, button, comb, cane, etc?
In America the grouper troopers aren't haunting the fish markets, they're out in boats checking coolers and live wells to see if you have illegal fish. And if you do there are fines plus you can lose your boat and your truck. Protection at the source is the only viable way to save the elephants. Just my opinion.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
Care to explain how that would work here (assuming I understand what you are getting at which I'm not absolutely certain I do)? You will be hard pressed to find anybody more in favor of free market principles than myself but unfortunately that isn't going to save the elephant in this case. Cattle and sheep happen to be relatively easy and cost effective to farm. Elephants are not. Besides, you conveniently fail to mention all the other animals that are now extinct that we didn't turn into a farm animal like a cow or a sheep. What makes you think that we can and would save the elephant by farming it? It sure hasn't happened yet and they are in their last numbers. The reason is that elephants would be far too difficult and costly to farm.
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Individual ownership of anything that can be sold for profit incentivizes the owners to maintain its value long-term. Common ownership of anything that has value incentivizes the earliest harvest of that value before the other "owners" get it first. Have you heard of the concept of "the tragedy of the commons"? It is very real and is a big part of the elephant situation as it exist today.

If a profit is made, there'll be elephants for sure. This is because humans are greedy, selfish creatures who desire more stuff. If farming elephants satisfies the desires, there will be plenty of elephants and the prices of ivory and other stuff from elephants will gradually drop and the quality of the product rise.

I live in farm country. Everyday the farm markets are talking with each other in dollar language and intellectual language, concerned with the amount of cattle, their condition, the feed available, the demand for the product, illness, etc etc....ALL of it constantly considered and reacted to, IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN THE LONG-TERM PROFITS. Extinction means no profits, thus no extinction happens. Property rights MUST BE part of the elephant equation or goodbye Dumbo.

And Utopia cannot be. That is, nothing is perfect. No law can make anything perfect for an elephant or human and no market will bring it about either. But which is better: no elephants at all or an imperfect but constantly adjusting market filled with them?

When you eat meat today, think about why it is and will be available to so many for such a good price and in such good quality. Juxtapose that with elephants' survival and see what you come up with.


Jeff Livingston
 
One more thing....ranchers protect their herds from theft, predators, etc. and do so with a vengeance. They build and maintain fences, corrals, barns, have dogs, cameras, etc. This, too, comes from natural greed and self-centeredness.

Poachers destroy profits so protections are made to reduce that theft. This is a cost that common ownership (i.e., "we the people" or the govt. own the herd) naturally neglects due to no incentives save the next election, but for-profit ranchers build into their business plans without being forced to by some legislation.


Jeff Livingston
 
Example of how this works:

The next time you go into a pool hall, check out the common cues and compare those to the personally owned cues. The common cues have no cases to protect them. They usually are mistreated or left leaning against walls. The ferrules are scratched, the shafts dented from misuse. They rarely are of the high quality of personally owned cues, the tips are not as well maintained, etc. even with really good pool hall owners trying to keep up.

This principle of property rights solves a lot of the world's problems, not just cues and elephants.

This site, found in my "commons" link, above, tells specifically about how a private section of Africa with animals and farms survived while the non-privately-owned lands around it deteriorated due to drought conditions in the 1970's:

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/TragedyoftheCommons.html


In 1974 the general public got a graphic illustration of the “tragedy of the commons” in satellite photos of the earth. Pictures of northern Africa showed an irregular dark patch 390 square miles in area. Ground-level investigation revealed a fenced area inside of which there was plenty of grass. Outside, the ground cover had been devastated.

The explanation was simple. The fenced area was private property, subdivided into five portions. Each year the owners moved their animals to a new section. Fallow periods of four years gave the pastures time to recover from the grazing. The owners did this because they had an incentive to take care of their land. But no one owned the land outside the ranch. It was open to nomads and their herds. Though knowing nothing of Karl Marx, the herdsmen followed his famous advice of 1875: “To each according to his needs.” Their needs were uncontrolled and grew with the increase in the number of animals. But supply was governed by nature and decreased drastically during the drought of the early 1970s. The herds exceeded the natural “carrying capacity” of their environment, soil was compacted and eroded, and “weedy” plants, unfit for cattle consumption, replaced good plants. Many cattle died, and so did humans....
Click to expand...



Jeff Livingston
 
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You can pass all the damn laws you want in the U.S,, ban the sale, possession, or use of ivory in the U.S. and still not impact the growth or decline of the elephant population.

The majority of ivory that is sold, legally or illegally, is sold outside the U.S. The Asian ivory market drives the price for the item and those countries do not share your enthusiasm for passing laws to "save the elephant".

Elephants, like it or not, are threats to people and crops in countries where they are a native species. The best hope for these animals is for those countries to use the death penalty for all poachers. Rogue elephants that threaten people or crops will be destroyed and the ivory should be legally sold at auction. That money can be used to improve sanctuaries for the 450,000 or so elephants still alive. The U.S., through private and government efforts saved the bison with a hell of a lot smaller starting population.

I get sick and tired of hearing how your "laws" are going to save something! Education can change a lot more opinions than "laws". Ivory can have a use in society and the elephant can be saved but the change that would have the greatest impact would be the change of opinion regarding ivory in the minds of many Asian people. They drive the ivory market, Sir, and your efforts are wrongly centered in the U.S. market.
 
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