Centerball...haters gonna hate

Here is another perspective. I do agree center axis CAN be more accurate, but , in general,
position play becomes more difficult.

That being said, table conditions have a lot to do with it. Lets use a tournament player
for the first example. They are usually playing on new cloth, using clean balls, and controlled environment.
Using spin while playing is more consistent then the next scenario. ....

Opposite side of the table is the road player or gambler. League players fit into this.
They walk into a bar, the tables are dirty, the balls are dull. Spin in this case needs to be cut in half.....or more. There are no sliding balls, spin induced throw is magnified, and swerve becomes a big problem. The cue ball wont just slide a little ways and then swerve back. It digs in like a tire on a top fuel dragster.

I too have to use mostly center axis when the table conditions suck. Road players learn to deal with it
faster then a tournament player would. They get these conditions more often, and I see a preference for center axis or reducing spin to a minimum.

At home, I keep my stuff clean. I spin a lot, and have good results. When I go to league, I forget most of the spin and concentrate on center axis. But everyone eventually gets a little out of position and will have to spin. No one can play perfect all the time. It is the nature of the game and of man.
and kee
 
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buckshotshoey said:
Here is another perspective. I do agree center axis CAN be more accurate, but , in general,
position play becomes more difficult.

That being said, table conditions have a lot to do with it. Lets use a tournament player
for the first example. They are usually playing on new cloth, using clean balls, and controlled environment.
Using spin while playing is more consistent then the next scenario. ....

Opposite side of the table is the road player or gambler. League players fit into this.
They walk into a bar, the tables are dirty, the balls are dull. Spin in this case needs to be cut in half.....or more. There are no sliding balls, spin induced throw is magnified, and swerve becomes a big problem. The cue ball wont just slide a little ways and then swerve back. It digs in like a tire on a top fuel dragster.

I too have to use mostly center axis when the table conditions suck. Road players learn to deal with it
faster then a tournament player would. They get these conditions more often, and I see a preference for center axis or reducing spin to a minimum.

At home, I keep my stuff clean. I spin a lot, and have good results. When I go to league, I forget most of the spin and concentrate on center axis. But everyone eventually gets a little out of position and will have to spin. No one can play perfect all the time. It is the nature of the game and of man.
and kee
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The last thing you want to do is spin balls on a brand new cloth that slides. The first couple of days in a pro tournament, players cut down substantially on side spin until the cloth gets a little wear.

As for road players, they're used to spinning balls in average pool room conditions. Some of the problems that might hurt spin would be high humidity, extremely dirty pool balls, extremely worn cloth. Maybe those conditions might exist in a bar, but most pool rooms have at least a few tables with playable conditions.
 
FranCrimi said:
The last thing you want to do is spin balls on a brand new cloth that slides. The first couple of days in a pro tournament, players cut down substantially on side spin until the cloth gets a little wear.

As for road players, they're used to spinning balls in average pool room conditions. Some of the problems that might hurt spin would be high humidity, extremely dirty pool balls, extremely worn cloth. Maybe those conditions might exist in a bar, but most pool rooms have at least a few tables with playable conditions.
Click to expand...

I get to play on new cloth so rarely, it doesn't apply to my world. Lol. The first day, or at least the first few matches it is trickier. But after that....game on.
But reducing spin in dirty conditions certainly works for me. Some bar box's around here are not so much dirty, but the balls are worn out.....zero shine....zero reflection....dull as your chalk. It pays to stay closer to center on those tables also.
 
This thread

This thread has become painful.

I advocate staying closeER to center. This does not mean AVOID using English. It means that instead of using 2 two tips or left or right I prefer to use 1 because its much easier to control the cue ball. TOI or TOO don't make a significant difference FOR ME. That doesn't mean they wont work for somebody else. I have chosen to play this way because I have observed a lot of top pros and they choose to play this way.

Now for those that are using the argument about Efren and Earl using a lot of spin...Efren and Earl are two of the best pool players of all time and had/have masterful speed control. They can do anything they want to the cue ball and still run out. Most of us on here can't beat them with the orange crush and don't have the ability to use spin the way they do.

Now, most of the rest of the pros don't use a whole lot of spin because they don't have to. The goal is to stay in line and play connect the dots shape. This requires less spin. Using spin constantly is kind of a crutch for getting out of line and is a double edged sword.

I have improved because I'm using less spin now. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I don't use any. I use whatever the shot and line of the next shot require and don't try and tip toe around english, nor do I spin the ball every time or rely on one side of the cueball or the other. Does this mean I play great? **** no lol. But it has helped me learn and improve.

Can we delete this thread now. Lol "I think Tor Lowry started a centerball craze" What a joke.
 
Speed is another large consideration....

ENGLISH! said:
I can understand speed being considered the #1 reason because if one plans for certain aspects & then does not hit the shot at the appropriate speed for the plan then the outcome will not be as planned.

The thing is that there are more than a few 'bangers' that have a good eye for the angle & can hit 'em hard & pocket a lot of balls but when they try to shoot softly they generally mis because they don't know what comes into play.

The real art is being able to do them ALL well.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
Click to expand...

The speed the shot requires is another big consideration where being able to use side spin at will plays a huge role...

I need to start my position regarding everything I've said in this thread off with a caveat (well actually, I guess it's too late to START it off with one). Well here's a qualification regarding what I've said in this thread.

This is for advanced players or for those who wish to, and are willing to do what it takes and learn what it takes to become advanced players. The amount of knowledge necessary to play this game right is astounding.

The nuances to what constitutes proper shot selection are so high in number, it's difficult to even relate them all.

Here are a few relating to speed of shot where being able to use side spin changes what you can do and what shot you should select.

When using outside english, the OB will travel faster and the cueball slower, and the opposite is true with inside english. This is faster and slower only relative to a center ball hit and to each other.

This kind of knowledge though helps to decide what shots to shoot in certain circumstances.

Without this knowledge, and without the confidence and ability to use side spin at will, you limit your shot selections and therefore your skill level.

If you spend hours upon hours being able to super stroke accurately, you might be able to get away without having the additional knowledge and ability of using profuse amounts of side spin, but my question would be why limit yourself and your potential skill level? Do BOTH then you give yourself more options when faced with those shots that require it.

And you will NEVER be a proficient one hole player without the advance knowledge and shot selection that using side spin gives you. Hell, if you avoid using sidespin, you'll lose 90% of the one hole banks available to you otherwise.

Jaden
 
I'm sorry that's NOT what has been stated in this thread...

Drop The Rock said:
This thread has become painful.

I advocate staying closeER to center. This does not mean AVOID using English. It means that instead of using 2 two tips or left or right I prefer to use 1 because its much easier to control the cue ball. TOI or TOO don't make a significant difference FOR ME. That doesn't mean they wont work for somebody else. I have chosen to play this way because I have observed a lot of top pros and they choose to play this way.

Now for those that are using the argument about Efren and Earl using a lot of spin...Efren and Earl are two of the best pool players of all time and had/have masterful speed control. They can do anything they want to the cue ball and still run out. Most of us on here can't beat them with the orange crush and don't have the ability to use spin the way they do.

Now, most of the rest of the pros don't use a whole lot of spin because they don't have to. The goal is to stay in line and play connect the dots shape. This requires less spin. Using spin constantly is kind of a crutch for getting out of line and is a double edged sword.

I have improved because I'm using less spin now. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean I don't use any. I use whatever the shot and line of the next shot require and don't try and tip toe around english, nor do I spin the ball every time or rely on one side of the cueball or the other. Does this mean I play great? **** no lol. But it has helped me learn and improve.

Can we delete this thread now. Lol "I think Tor Lowry started a centerball craze" What a joke.
Click to expand...

That might be what YOU advocate, but that is NOT what has been stated in this thread.

It wasn't "You should try to stay within one tip of center". It was "Avoid getting off the center line when possible".

Besides, with BHE learned and applied right, it doesn't matter if it's a half tip of English or three tips of English..

Jaden
 
Jaden said:
The speed the shot requires is another big consideration where being able to use side spin at will plays a huge role...

I need to start my position regarding everything I've said in this thread off with a caveat (well actually, I guess it's too late to START it off with one). Well here's a qualification regarding what I've said in this thread.

This is for advanced players or for those who wish to, and are willing to do what it takes and learn what it takes to become advanced players. The amount of knowledge necessary to play this game right is astounding.

The nuances to what constitutes proper shot selection are so high in number, it's difficult to even relate them all.

Here are a few relating to speed of shot where being able to use side spin changes what you can do and what shot you should select.

When using outside english, the OB will travel faster and the cueball slower, and the opposite is true with inside english. This is faster and slower only relative to a center ball hit and to each other.

This kind of knowledge though helps to decide what shots to shoot in certain circumstances.

Without this knowledge, and without the confidence and ability to use side spin at will, you limit your shot selections and therefore your skill level.

If you spend hours upon hours being able to super stroke accurately, you might be able to get away without having the additional knowledge and ability of using profuse amounts of side spin, but my question would be why limit yourself and your potential skill level? Do BOTH then you give yourself more options when faced with those shots that require it.

And you will NEVER be a proficient one hole player without the advance knowledge and shot selection that using side spin gives you. Hell, if you avoid using sidespin, you'll lose 90% of the one hole banks available to you otherwise.

Jaden
Click to expand...

Yes, kind of a painful thread. I guess it comes down to folks being passionate about the game.

I will continue to use English when it's necessary, and center when I feel I can get great shape without English for ANY shot I feel like I'd be more accurate using center. I do believe I have many things to practice. Focusing a bit more of my practice time on English seems to be time well spent...
 
His Boy Elroy said:
I hate to see that anyone a mere 34 miles away from me is perplexed. I'll do what I can. I'm a practitioner of T.O.I. I practice it precisely the way CJ Wiley teaches it. This is not because I lack critical thinking skills; rather, it's because after thinking about it critically, I find no flaws in it.

I'm sure you occasionally miss shots. I didn't see you in the brackets for the last Chinese Open. I didn't book any flights fior Shanghai that week either. The reason center ball shots are missed is because it's so difficult to come forward with the cue perfectly straight.

If there's even a very slight crookedness to the stroke it has the effect of pivot spin. This puts un-intentional spin and thus, deflection on the cue ball. Naturally, this many times, causes the shot to be missed

Coming forward perfectly straight with the cue is a very complicated endeavor. Intermediates who learn how to put English on most every shot by practicing T.O.I believe that deliberately applying English to the CB and compensating for the ensuing squirt and deflection, is a less complicated endeavor.

As one gets better at T.O.I and starts moving the tip more to the center of the ball, they believe it is even a less complicated endeavor

Finally, as I explained in the previous post, if one reaches an advanced levell, the spin becomes so slight that it becomes deadened upon contact with the OB and we no longer call it English. We just call it deflection. We reserve he word "English" to shots where the spin is of a degree where the CB continues spinning after contact with the OB.

If you believe it's a less complicated endeavor to come forward perfectly straight with the cue, I can understand even if I disagree; I just hope your no longer perplexed by those of us who believe that coming forward perfectly straigh with the cue is the more complicated endeavor.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you're in the burbs as well ;)

I'm not perplexed as long as the job gets done. I know folks don't have perfect strokes. And that many use English on most cut shots to reduce "cling", but I don't use it when the ball is so close that "cling" is not a factor, that's all I'm talking about.

If you need it, use it. If you don't, don't.
 
If one is happy with their game, that's fine, be happy. The thing is that some have done THEIR research & experimentation & have come to THEIR determinations.

I think the issue is that some say things & whether intended or not can discourage others from looking into or going in the english direction.

IMO, that is a disservice to the game. To me it encourages mediocrity.

It's like telling a soprano to sing, but don't hit the high notes.

The example of what many of the current day pros do, staying close to center, I don't think holds water.

It's like CJ & Elroy have said, almost no one could detect how little off center they hit the ball, BUT... it is still intentionally off center & for a reason.

And, as Elroy pointed out, he learned from the extreme in, much as I did as a teenager. I am rather sure that the pros to whom some refer can use more english rather proficiently.

Many times, if not every time, the intended speed or angle of the shot dictates how far off center one hits the ball. That is, IF one has become proficient in using english & one will never do that if one starts & stays using it sparingly.

As to the getting out of line thing, NO, at least not in my opinion. If one continually uses just center one WILL eventually get out of line. The near 'constant' use of english to enhance the natural center line results in what can keep one from getting out of line.

We are pretty much beating a dead horse when each tribe is beating their own drums.

It's just that to me, one side is encouraging others to learn while the other side is discouraging the learning of a technique.

Or... they say learn it, yes, but don't hardly ever use it or you might get use to it.

I have been called argumentative by management, but when two sides have a difference of opinion that is what they do. They have a civil logical argument.

You & others say, use english sparingly & in small quantities when you do.

I & others say, use english generously & learn how to use it in every quantity.

Both side have given reasons why they advocate what they do. It is now left to anyone in consideration of the subject to make their own determinations, as they should.

I think Elroy's post was a bit enlightening to some that may not have seen things the way he laid them out.

There is no one way to play the game & that is what is great about it. It invites individuality & expression.

IMO, One does not express themselves very much if one is always painting by the numbers.

Using english allows one to create mini masterpieces in my opinion. I have played the game for nearly 50 years & using english the whole time within weeks from the start. If someone where to tell me at any point along the way that I had to stop using english & had to hit 90% of my shots just on the vertical axis, I most probably would have quit the game. I would say the same thing about tennis if someone had told me, 'No, you can't learn to hit a top spin backhand & if you do, you can only hit 1 of them per set.

Sorry for being so long winded & a bit preachy.

My AZB Moniker is ENGLISH! & I encourage everyone to learn it & how to use it & then make their own determinations as to what they want to do or not do regarding it. I suggest the same thing for TOI.
 
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Jaden said:
The speed the shot requires is another big consideration where being able to use side spin at will plays a huge role...

I need to start my position regarding everything I've said in this thread off with a caveat (well actually, I guess it's too late to START it off with one). Well here's a qualification regarding what I've said in this thread.

This is for advanced players or for those who wish to, and are willing to do what it takes and learn what it takes to become advanced players. The amount of knowledge necessary to play this game right is astounding.

The nuances to what constitutes proper shot selection are so high in number, it's difficult to even relate them all.

Here are a few relating to speed of shot where being able to use side spin changes what you can do and what shot you should select.

When using outside english, the OB will travel faster and the cueball slower, and the opposite is true with inside english. This is faster and slower only relative to a center ball hit and to each other.

This kind of knowledge though helps to decide what shots to shoot in certain circumstances.

Without this knowledge, and without the confidence and ability to use side spin at will, you limit your shot selections and therefore your skill level.

If you spend hours upon hours being able to super stroke accurately, you might be able to get away without having the additional knowledge and ability of using profuse amounts of side spin, but my question would be why limit yourself and your potential skill level? Do BOTH then you give yourself more options when faced with those shots that require it.

And you will NEVER be a proficient one hole player without the advance knowledge and shot selection that using side spin gives you. Hell, if you avoid using sidespin, you'll lose 90% of the one hole banks available to you otherwise.

Jaden
Click to expand...

Hi Jaden,

I agree with you.

Some have suggested, even if veiled, that using english is for players that can not hit the cue ball accurately & do not have a 'good stroke'. That can not be farther from the truth & is propaganda with a hidden agenda in mind in my opinion.

One needs tip location & speed of stroke accuracy to be successful with the use of english just the same as one does for playing on the vertical center axis.

I am new to playing one pocket & am learning that a bit of a different approach is required to get the most effect out of the spin at the slowest of speeds.

I Hate One Pocket. Not really. I just never played it since being introduce to it briefly as a young teenager.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick
 
Interesting topic that quickly degenerated into stupid bickering. I dont' think anyone is advocating spinning the crap out of the cueball on every shot, and the laughable accusation that somebody using spin cannot shoot center ball, does not even deserve an answer.

How much spin should a person use? That depends on the skill of the person shooting as well as the conditions on the table. It all cooks down to percentages. If someone can pocket any ball he can see with center ball a high percentage of the time, but is not very comfortable with english,then he might be just as well off leaving himself a bit longer shots etc and shoot center ball only. Center ball will sometimes lead to having to shoot into an area, rather than into an angle, which means that some compromises will sometimes have to be made. There are also players who don't like long shots etc, that might be better off spinning the ball more, to get closer and get better angles. There are also conditions, especially tournament conditions where the ball is sliding like crazy and the english will not take off the rail, where you should generally stick to center ball a lot more. The reverse is the humid, slow cloth/grabby rails etc, and the opposite applies there. I did make a more detailed post on the benefits of english, so I won't rehash that here.

I feel that using english is helpful to a players development, as well as being extremely necessary to prevail under certain conditions. Like in most othere endeavors, beginners tend to exaggerate when having learned something new. That is not the question at hand here. The important thing is wether an advanced player should somehow limit his use of english to the absolute minimum. While that cannot be answered in a yes or no fashion for any randomly selected player, I do think that some on here are heavily leaning towards a yes...I don't think that it is the correct mindset for a good player to have, nor do I think many actually fret over that question. By trial and error they will have learned the correct way to shoot a shot, which may not be the correct way for anyone but themselves. Pool is mainly a learn as you go sort of skill, no matter how good your instruction is, some things will have to be learned at the table, not from a talk or a book.
 
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just caught up on this thread.... good stuff

it sounds like the age-old "artist vs engineer"

everyone is somewhere on the spectrum between the two

find your comfort zone and get about getting good at it
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Interesting topic that quickly degenerated into stupid bickering. I dont' think anyone is advocating spinning the crap out of the cueball on every shot, and the laughable accusation that somebody using spin cannot shoot center ball, does not even deserve an answer.

How much spin should a person use? That depends on the skill of the person shooting as well as the conditions on the table. It all cooks down to percentages. If someone can pocket any ball he can see with center ball a high percentage of the time, but is not very comfortable with english,then he might be just as well off leaving himself a bit longer shots etc and shoot center ball only. Center ball will sometimes lead to having to shoot into an area, rather than into an angle, which means that some compromises will sometimes have to be made. There are also players who don't like long shots etc, that might be better off spinning the ball more, to get closer and get better angles. There are also conditions, especially tournament conditions where the ball is sliding like crazy and the english will not take off the rail, where you should generally stick to center ball a lot more. The reverse is the humid, slow cloth/grabby rails etc, and the opposite applies there. I did make a more detailed post on the benefits of english, so I won't rehash that here.

I feel that using english is helpful to a players development, as well as being extremely necessary to prevail under certain conditions. Like in most othere endeavors, beginners tend to exaggerate when having learned something new. That is not the question at hand here. The important thing is wether an advanced player should somehow limit his use of english to the absolute minimum. While that cannot be answered in a yes or no fashion for any randomly selected player, I do think that some on here are heavily leaning towards a yes...I don't think that it is the correct mindset for a good player to have, nor do I think many actually fret over that question. By trial and error they will have learned the correct way to shoot a shot, which may not be the correct way for anyone but themselves. Pool is mainly a learn as you go sort of skill, no matter how good your instruction is, some things will have to be learned at the table, not from a talk or a book.
Click to expand...

...:thumbup2:...
 
my 2 cents
there is a time and place for everything
center ball and spin
to be a complete player you need to have the ability to use both
that being said the only time i might avoid spin and stay on or REAL CLOSE to the vertical axis is when the cue ball is frozen to the rail
especially if its a long shot
for me my make % would go way down if i wasnt REAL CLOSE to the vertical axis
 
What a train wreck of a thread. You guys/gals are making it way too hard.

- Sometimes it is correct to use spin.
- Sometimes it is correct to use center ball.
- There are more than 1 way to play shape on most shots, therefore do what you are comfortable with that gives you the most chance of success.
- Most shots can be made with center ball and just adjust the speed to get shape on the next ball. This does not mean every shot should be used with center ball.
- Every game is different so of course you may run into more shots that require a different spin.

EZ game!
 
Spimp13 said:
What a train wreck of a thread. You guys/gals are making it way too hard.

- Sometimes it is correct to use spin.
- Sometimes it is correct to use center ball.
- There are more than 1 way to play shape on most shots, therefore do what you are comfortable with that gives you the most chance of success.
- Most shots can be made with center ball and just adjust the speed to get shape on the next ball. This does not mean every shot should be used with center ball.
- Every game is different so of course you may run into more shots that require a different spin.

EZ game!
Click to expand...

I can agree with this.
 
ENGLISH! said:
The near 'constant' use of engllish to enhance the natural center line results is what can keep one from getting out of line.

I & others say, use english generously & learn how to use it in every quantity.
Click to expand...

These are the closest to the truth in this whole argument. Though some recalcitrants won't accept it, a little english helps to keep the cueball from dragging the object ball wide of the pocket. In other words, a little english (side spin) allows you to use the natural angle that your eyes see.

Also, I hate to give away too many secrets, but to avoid object ball skid, the object ball has to have forward roll as soon as possible. The best way to achieve this is to hit the cue ball low, so that it transfers forward spin to the object ball. Do you think there's a reason why Efren rarely, if ever, gets skid on an object ball? Even Grady Matthews mentioned this on an Accu Stats tape more than once.

Obviously when you're on the rail, you have to hit high. Otherwise, low, and with english, and you've discovered how to make the game more playable.

Or, just keep on doing it your own way.

All the best,
WW
 
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