Sight plane/picture opposite dominante eye

ENGLISH! said:
Well I don't know what to say about that other than I guess you do.

Was it a straight shot?

I can close either eye & set the cue on the line once done, but from above the shot, my right does not see it correctly.

By what you say, if universal, then a person with only one eye would not be able to use a rifle with any accuracy & I don't think that is the case.

Best Wishes.
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You know as well as I do Rick that shooting a rifle is not the same as shooting a pool shot. Can you close one eye and shoot at the same standard? I don't know a single person that can. Marksmen don't close one eye. They look down the scope with both eyes open.
 
Pidge said:
...shooting a rifle is not the same as shooting a pool shot. Can you close one eye and shoot at the same standard? I don't know a single person that can.
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I think you probably mean you don't know of a single person who can - unless you've tested this with everybody you know. I think marksmen could shoot just as well with one eye closed once they got used to it - but they don't need to so they don't go to the trouble. (It's even common in rifle marksmanship to practice with one eye covered.)

On the other hand, pool players sight from above the cue, not directly along it like aiming a rifle - so the comparison is complicated by that - but I think they could also aim the cue as well with one eye as with two. The problem for pool players is that they also have to see cut angles and CB paths, which require some spatial visualization.

pj
chgo
 
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duckie said:
Why the need to change?

My belief is if someone can run 4-5 balls regularly, they know how to aim, but may not have the proper practice program to identify their weakness, design a practice proper plan to improve.

No offense, but playing 2 years is meaningless. It is hours at the table that matter, not the calendar time.

More people would improve if they just knew how to practice properly. I see it everyday, those that just roll 9 balls on the table and hit away.

Seldom if ever, do I see anyone, at least where I play, do any real practice. Such as doing nothing but banks. Roll one ball on the table and bank it, one or more rails and do this for at least a hour.

Or practice kicks. And so on. They lack discipline to practice properly and getting lessons is not the same thing.

I recently went back to tight pockets tables. I just do single ball drills mostly right now. Meaning a set up one shot over and over again into the same pocket. Get tired of that shot move to another. I vary as much as I can about the shot,...speed, spin used and so on through the course of that particular pocket drill. Boring.......some think so and from the outside it would appear so. But for me, it's not. Every shot to the pocket, hit or miss, I learn something. I gain knowledge to use else where. Doing the same shot over and over helps to feel the difference between how I did each shot.

Change to just change is not always a good change.
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They are called drills. I think most anyone knows that drills are a key ingredient to a successful practice regimen.
 
Pidge said:
You know as well as I do Rick that shooting a rifle is not the same as shooting a pool shot. Can you close one eye and shoot at the same standard? I don't know a single person that can. Marksmen don't close one eye. They look down the scope with both eyes open.
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Pidge,

I understand all that. But.. I can see a straight line with either eye closed & once down see a straight shot & pocket it with either eye. The depth perception is not there & hence speed may not be accurate nor cue ball control, but I can see as straight line with either eye & a straight shot once down with either eye.

That's why I found what you said odd. I would never want to try to actually play with one eye, but I'd hazard a guess that there are more than a few one eyed players out there somewhere.

Best 2 Ya.
 
Ugh...this thread and previous threads that have touched on the same themes really perplex me! I'm sure many of you have read John Schmidt's comments on aiming systems found on the bottom of the "Aiming " home page.

I read those comments for the first time 2 years ago. It was like he lifted those thoughts straight from my brain. To say they resonated with me is an understatement.

My aiming hasn't improved since 2 weeks after I picked up a cue at age eleven, forty four years ago. There's nothing there to improve on. I really don't know which one of my eyes is dominant. I don't think about any shot line. I aim for the part of the ball that says IN.

I think both John Schmidt and I start missing because of the severity of the cut when the cut is more than a certain degree. It's tough to say what that degree is exactly, but I've watched enough pro matches to say that degree Is probably the same for the both of us.

So why wasn't I in Quatar a couple weeks ago: because John Scmidt deals with deflection and swerve better than I do. If the cut is less severe than "that degree," I simply NEVER aim wrong. When I miss it's ALWAYS the result of deflection or swerve. I know if the ball is going in the instant it leaves my tip based on the feedback as to whether I applied the correct amount of spin to the cue ball on my T.O.I stroke. John Schmidt, not surprisingly, applies the correct amount of spin on the cue ball more often than I do.

By now some of you may be thinking I'm a liar, and others may be thinking I'm a boastful jerk? Here's the thing....I've thought about this, and thought about this, and thought some more. I'm convinced I don't have any special talent for aiming. From reading John Scmidt's comments, I can tell he doesn't believe he has any special talent for aiming.

I don't know what else to say. Maybe it's a situation like eye glasses. People who don't need eye glasses don't necessarily have a gift; rather, the people who need eye glasses have a problem. Maybe a whole lot of pool players have a problem to a degree with the way they visualize the shot - making process.

.......I really hope no one takes this the wrong way. I've tried to address that possible perception. As I said, I'm just perplexed. There has to be an answer.
 
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When we walk toward any object we do not close one eye, even if we have one eye that is highly dominant. The transition from the chin on the line to getting the vision center on the line is not what is under discussion. The best place for most people to assess the next shot is chin/sternum/etc. on the line, the center of the body. Way too many players have one foot toward the line and are so anxious to start stroking in the air and etc.
 
BilliardsAbout said:
When we walk toward any object we do not close one eye, even if we have one eye that is highly dominant. The transition from the chin on the line to getting the vision center on the line is not what is under discussion. The best place for most people to assess the next shot is chin/sternum/etc. on the line, the center of the body. Way too many players have one foot toward the line and are so anxious to start stroking in the air and etc.
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Matt,

I somewhat disagree.

Gene proved to me beyond any doubt that for seeing the straight line I am better off being off to the side to put my left eye in play rather then my right.

So my chin, sternum etc. is slightly off to the right side of the shot line.

That is unless I twist clockwise to get them too on the line, but that would require too much rotation & be very awkward.

What you say may be correct for individuals that are not cross 'dominant' but normal vision is not the topic of the thread.
 
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ENGLISH! said:
Matt,

For the topic of this thread, there is no other way to say this other than you are wrong.

Gene proved to me beyond any doubt that for seeing the straight line I am better off being off to the side to put my left eye in play rather then my right.

So my chin, sternum etc. is slightly off to the right side of the shot line.

That is unless I twist clockwise to get them too on the line, but that would require too much rotation & be very awkward.

What you say may be correct for individuals that are not cross 'dominant' but normal vision is not the topic of the thread.
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What he says may be correct for any type of eye sight... Then again it may not. Being cross dominant doesn't make a slight bit of difference. I am massively left eye dominant and play right handed... I sight with the centre of my eyes on the line of aim and cue the same way. If I followed genes teachings I would sight like you... Off to one side with my left side taking preference... But it doesn't work for me.. Getting the eyes misaligned ever so slightly can ruin your chances of making progress.

The pool world is lucky. In the snooker world not too much thought is put into a person's vision. I remember overlooking a well established snooker coaches lesson and he was telling promising students that how they have their head over the cue doesn't matter and that over time a person will learn to deal with it... This may be true but by dealing with it they will sweep across balls and play with unintentional side because they know that's going to pot a ball. It is far more productive to get a person's sighting correct as early as possible in their development to allow them to cue the ball accurately and improves their ability to learn by trial and error.
 
Pidge said:
What he says may be correct for any type of eye sight... Then again it may not. Being cross dominant doesn't make a slight bit of difference. I am massively left eye dominant and play right handed... I sight with the centre of my eyes on the line of aim and cue the same way. If I followed genes teachings I would sight like you... Off to one side with my left side taking preference... But it doesn't work for me.. Getting the eyes misaligned ever so slightly can ruin your chances of making progress.

The pool world is lucky. In the snooker world not too much thought is put into a person's vision. I remember overlooking a well established snooker coaches lesson and he was telling promising students that how they have their head over the cue doesn't matter and that over time a person will learn to deal with it... This may be true but by dealing with it they will sweep across balls and play with unintentional side because they know that's going to pot a ball. It is far more productive to get a person's sighting correct as early as possible in their development to allow them to cue the ball accurately and improves their ability to learn by trial and error.
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I totally agree. It appeared,to me, that Matt's post implied that he was speaking toward everyone. Sort of in a cookie cutter manner.

Best Wishes.
 
Actually I was talking to most everyone, yes. I won't deny it. Bear in mind I am NOT talking about being in the full, sighted stance over the shot, taking practice strokes. Nor am I talking about getting INTO the stance from the erect position. I'm talking about walking behind the cue ball and then checking out the relationship between the cue ball and the target, initially. I've coached a lot a people who initially address the cue ball, body rotated away from perpendicular to the shot line, one foot forward, so anxious to get down on the ball and shoot that they forget to survey all carefully first. At some point, we all get that place we like over the shot, but we shouldn't rush to do so before seeing all the way we're meant to see...
 
BilliardsAbout said:
Actually I was talking to most everyone, yes. I won't deny it. Bear in mind I am NOT talking about being in the full, sighted stance over the shot, taking practice strokes. Nor am I talking about getting INTO the stance from the erect position. I'm talking about walking behind the cue ball and then checking out the relationship between the cue ball and the target, initially. I've coached a lot a people who initially address the cue ball, body rotated away from perpendicular to the shot line, one foot forward, so anxious to get down on the ball and shoot that they forget to survey all carefully first. At some point, we all get that place we like over the shot, but we shouldn't rush to do so before seeing all the way we're meant to see...
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I hear you Matt.

Just keep in mind that the eyes are in our head & our head is on a 'swivel'

A baseball hitter does not stand square to the pitcher but instead stands roughly 90* to that line & simply turns their head.

In tennis, the player does similarly for the majority of shots hit.

Thank God for a head that 'swivels'.

One of the major & best coaching advice given to a football player is, 'Keep your head on a swivel.'.

Here is something to consider. If one has the body perpendicular to the shot then there is more movement required to get into the shooting position than if one starts out turned to a degree. Less movement makes it easier to keep ones 'vision center' on the line.

I don't know but perhaps that is why snooker players & some pool players, as I did for the longest time, use that 'square stance'.

Two sides to the same coin, perhaps.

Best 2 Ya.
 
The square stance is primarily for alignment. Snooker players do step into the shot so they address the line of aim square on. Because of this step with the back foot onto the line of aim they have to twist the torso over to their shooting arm side to keep the eyes locked on target as they place the other foot... Square or not. Notice the very best snooker players... Their eyes never leave the line of aim they picked out all throughout the shot... They couldn't do that without a neck. The amount of movement a snooker player actually has when approaching the cue ball and getting down is more than most pool players, but the best pool players and best snooker players have one thing in common... Their vision centre never leaves the line of aim. I used to practice with a long mirror with a marker pen line drawn down it getting down over and over keeping my eyes locked on the line all throughout. IMO, this is imperative for a person's aiming consistency and what sets the best from the rest.
 
Pidge said:
The square stance is primarily for alignment. Snooker players do step into the shot so they address the line of aim square on. Because of this step with the back foot onto the line of aim they have to twist the torso over to their shooting arm side to keep the eyes locked on target as they place the other foot... Square or not. Notice the very best snooker players... Their eyes never leave the line of aim they picked out all throughout the shot... They couldn't do that without a neck. The amount of movement a snooker player actually has when approaching the cue ball and getting down is more than most pool players, but the best pool players and best snooker players have one thing in common... Their vision centre never leaves the line of aim. I used to practice with a long mirror with a marker pen line drawn down it getting down over and over keeping my eyes locked on the line all throughout. IMO, this is imperative for a person's aiming consistency and what sets the best from the rest.
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Yes. I just posted in PJs controllable dominant eye thread that 'the trick' to 'cure' my becoming cross eye dominant for pool is to stay looking on the line at the OB until 'completely' set & then & only then give a glance to the cue ball to set the tip.

I never us to do that. I would look completely away or down or to the cue as I settled into the shooting position & THEN focus on the line. If I were to do that now my newly non dominant right eye gets too much involved & I'm not seeing the straight line relationship properly.

So... in the last 1/2 year I have gone to a less snooker type stance AND shooting left eyed vs right eyed before.

I'm rather amazed that I shot as well as I did with the eye issue, IF it was always the way it is now. Gene says it can just pop up with age or a reduction of normal play. I'm a victim of both.

Anyway I have come to agree that one should totally keep the 'eye' on the line the whole time.

Good post, Pidge.
 
Allen Brown said:
I'm right handed and place the cue under my left eye and I have astigmatism in both of my eyes and it has gotten worse here in the past few years. As previously stated, I too, turn my head just a touch to see better period.

OP, does your wife wear glasses?
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Apologies for not responding sooner lost track of this thread. Yes she does and she has astigmatism as well.


Post it up
 
I will help.......

Electech said:
Okay hopefully this is conveyed where it can be understood. My wife started playing about 2 years ago. She is right handed, right eye dominate and her cue was normally just to the right of her chin center. Just found out last month that her sight picture/plane is under her left eye. She has been trying to adjust since.

The setting up a cue and three balls on the table helped determine what was the correct sight picture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKoMZrg1MAg


Seems the muscle memory from the last two years is fighting her new sight alignment and she is getting frustrated. The entire alignment of her body has had to change to accommodate the cue position under the body.

Any experience with this sort of thing? I haven't been able to find anything for reference on aiming on the other side of your dominant eye. Not looking for a 5 minute solution just wondering if anyone else has seen or had this before and how they handled it.

Thanks!

MSS
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Your right there is nothing out there that really addresses the issue.

Many teachers and players know there is a problem and try to help fix it with drills and telling players to naturally do this and you will get there. Some try to change your stance and sometimes they can accidently help the problem because the eyes accidently get a little shift.

Many 3's in many leagues around the country are 3's, not because they just play bad but because they are not getting the real dominant eye in the most dominant position. In fact many of them are forcing the wrong eye there like trying to shoot a gun.

Some do the eye dominance test by pointing and looking through circles. Most eye doctors will tell you this is about the same as guessing. Half swear by it and half should swear at it.

If you want you can give me a call. I will help you and your wife figure out this whole thing.

If you have noticed already her improvement is already showing but it can get so much better with the correct guidance.

This is exactly what I teach. it's called Perfect Aim.

It's not just identifying the real dominant eye but getting it in the most dominant position.

Call me in the afternoon between 3 and 5 with cell phone on speaker or ear bud and be by a table.

All I ask in return is that you share your amazing results with everyone.

715-563-8712....If you want call and we can set up an exact time that will work for both of us.

In the meantime good luck.
 
Thanks for helping.......

ENGLISH! said:
Pidge,


The only issue I have with what you wrote is what I put in blue.

One can see a straight line with one eye & does not need both eyes to see a straight line.

I understand your situation & mine may be similar but also a bit different.

I have to take my right eye out of use as much as I can.

I've done the close one eye testing too. If I go down onto a straight shot my old way the shot looks correct with both eyes open, but when I close my left eye the shot looks & is wrong. That never use to be & that is why I thought for most of my life that I was right eye dominant.

If I follow Gene's manual prescription my left eye stays 'dominant'.

If in the heat of competition if I fall back to my old method & catch myself, all I do is turn my head clockwise & the left eye gets 'dominant' & I adjust the cue.

I will be honest, I am very amazed at how well I played IF this issue was present & not known to me. The Human Mind is an amazing Entity.

I think Gene might know a bit more than you give him credit. Some of what he knows may not be new but he has put in a lot of study & knows a a lot about it.

Best 2 Ya.
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By now you can understand the hurdles I face trying to explain this to players and other teachers without actually teaching them and showing them with their own eyes.

Many teachers and players knew and know that there is a problem but just never really figured out a clear cut way to fix it.

I showed you and you know. There is no other clear cut quick way to solve the issues with the eye dominance.

I gave over 2,000 documented lessons with well over 10,000 mini lessons helping players find their dominant eyes and showing many how to fix this problem.

5 years of tireless work on the road teaching and learning more and more as I taught.

It would have been virtually impossible for me to just sit there and think and figure this all out so I don't blame these players and teachers for not understanding how this all works. They have no chance unless they do a lesson and see it with their own eyes.

Like yourself, the players that have learned this are just sitting back and smiling. They know and know that it is right.

I'm going to help the player that started the thread. That's the best I can do.

As you can see trying to explain with words on here is almost impossible.

Thanks my friend and keep shooting well...........
 
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