Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?

Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?

  • I always go by feel

    Votes: 153 53.5%
  • Usually by feel, with aiming systems for hard shots

    Votes: 68 23.8%
  • Usually with aiming systems, by feel for easy shots

    Votes: 24 8.4%
  • I always use aiming systems

    Votes: 26 9.1%
  • I just hit balls very hard and hope they sink

    Votes: 15 5.2%

  • Total voters
    286
John -- are you telling me that Stan's final stroke bears any resemblance to his warm up stroke, which was established by his CTE visuals? I even measured the angle between his warm up cue and the cue during the actual stroke. I didn't post the number of degrees because it would take more time than I cared to spend to make the number as accurate as I could. It is a very measurable angle.

If Bustamente uses CTE and still swoops offline I'll give him a call and straighten him out. :)

What does the warm up stroke have to do with the hit on the cue ball? When Stan hits the cueball he is hitting it dead center, or incredibly close to dead center since we can't actually see the tip on the ball at contact.

I think you're chasing a unicorn here on this.

For one thing as Colin CLEARLY showed the shooter can swoop and add backhand spin and STILL make the ball when the dead nuts perfect shot line for center ball is plotted, marked, known and used 100% for each taken.

So even if Stan was a tiny bit off center in the delivery, which he wasn't in my opinion it likely wouldn't matter and certainly isn't gearing the object ball into the pocket.

You found that in a warm up stroke the shaft near the joint came off the line you drew on screen slightly. What does that translate into at ball contact? Nothing because at ball contact the cue came straight through the ball. But the overall point is that the butt of the cue can rotate like an egg when stroking and still come through dead straight on impact.

My video rebuttal is still uploading - https://youtu.be/tiZjW0zHGJc

I went frame by frame in it to illustrate what I see.
 
In JB Cases post #1723, he graphically shows how the same CTE post-pivot shot line can make an infinite number of different cut angles to the corner pocket...for different separations between the CB and OB.

Sorry for the size of his picture.
CTE-GB-along%20a%20string.png

Be well
 
I watched this video of Stevie Moore with interest as it addresses the idea of getting a different cut angle from the same visuals. I waited to hear something that could make me understand better. Disappointingly, the answer appears to be "that's the nature of center to edge" and "you'll see it for yourself when you try it." Well I didn't see it for myself somehow. The object ball plows into the side rail 6" away from the side pocket when I try it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1mlnRiAXA8

Do any of you remember that thing awhile back with the photo of a lady in a blue dress? Some people saw the dress as white, and others as blue. It created a big stir in the media. It turns out that some people process visual images differently than others, so the light around the dress caused some to truly see a white dress when in reality it was blue (or something like that).

This CTE thing seems to have some similarity to that.

After I was berated into trying them, I got the same results & when reported back 'I got my thumbs broken'. Others like 8Pack/Anthony, others, & I think Satorie, as well as I, did similarly with the 5 shots.

I don't think I would agree with you comparing CTE to the blue dress thing. I thing it may be more of a self hypnosis thing or an unconscious consciousness, if that make sense to you.

Duckie gave an example of individuals 'seeing' some things that are not the reality of what is actually happening like a a car wheel spinning slowly backwards when the reality is that it is spinning very fast in the forward direction. I commented that they really are 'seeing' the reality but some can't differentiate reality from their subjective perception of what they are 'seeing'. Maybe Clinton was right. Maybe it does depend on what the definition of IS is.

Best 2 Ya.
 
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Thanks, I won that bet. You insulted me, and gave not a single answer to any of the questions. :grin:

You answered not my question regarding your questions regarding CTE with 'questions' about me that were fairly obviously just rhetorical trolling 'questions'.

Go look in the mirror & see who it is that starts this (your) nonsense

And that is the correct word regarding you... NONsense.

As I finally said rather recently, you are the biggest 'blind' hypocrite that I have ever encountered.

I'm soon done here.

I will be Praying for you though.
 
I watched this video of Stevie Moore with interest as it addresses the idea of getting a different cut angle from the same visuals. I waited to hear something that could make me understand better. Disappointingly, the answer appears to be "that's the nature of center to edge" and "you'll see it for yourself when you try it." Well I didn't see it for myself somehow. The object ball plows into the side rail 6" away from the side pocket when I try it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1mlnRiAXA8

Do any of you remember that thing awhile back with the photo of a lady in a blue dress? Some people saw the dress as white, and others as blue. It created a big stir in the media. It turns out that some people process visual images differently than others, so the light around the dress caused some to truly see a white dress when in reality it was blue (or something like that).

This CTE thing seems to have some similarity to that.

Not really. But I will say that CTE seems to be along the lines of "get it" or "don't" and those that don't get it rarely continue to put in the effort to get it.

Every heard of the Khan Academy?

It is a foundation started by Sal Khan with the aim to change education from a one size fits all model to an at your own pace model. Meaning that current curriculums in most schools teach to a test with set milestones that all students are expected to have reached at the same time.

But in fact all students don't absorb information at the same pace. Khan Academy sets it up where the students have smaller tasks that need to be done and they go at their own pace with coaching as needed. Some kids race ahead and then slow down as the tasks get harder and other students are much slower with the easy material and then surpass the fast kids on the hard material. In the end though all students get a full understanding of the subject. Only the ones who quit don't get it.

I get your point. CTE however does work and so when you aren't able to get the same results as Stan then it's ONLY because you aren't yet applying it correctly not because Stan or any CTE student is steering all their shots. I am not questioning your intelligence. I also didn't "get it" for a long time and ended up using my own cobbled-together version that I gleaned from bits and pieces here and there, this was long before any one was putting up CTE videos on YouTube.

I was putting up CTE videos trying to understand it, showing what I knew or thought to be right at that time. I did have some decent success with those "wrong methods" even so and it was pointed out to me that I was steering the shots a lot back then. Even aftef I got the DVD I didn't take to it right away in the belief that "my" version of CTE was right due to the fact that I could make a lot of shots with it.

Anyway, while I admire your efforts I don't think that they are yet clearing anything up on the WHY and HOW CTE works. I feel you are still leaning towards subconscious adjustment and not thinking about how it can work mechanically.
 
In JB Cases post #1723, he graphically shows how the same CTE post-pivot shot line can make an infinite number of different cut angles to the corner pocket...for different separations between the CB and OB.

Sorry for the size of his picture.
View attachment 399257

Be well

E,

You never state a conclusion. I guess that's your way of not catching vitriol.

I'll just say that that diagram could be used to illustrate TOI with some different wording & a parallel shift away from center instead of a pivot to center. It may not be precisely accurate, but the principle is there.

You Stay Well.
 
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E,

You never state a conclusion. I guess that's you way of not catching vitriol.

I'll just say that that diagram could be used to illustrate TOI with some different wording & a parallel shift away from center instead of a pivot to center. It may not be precisely accurate, but principle is there.

You Stay Well.

The diagram is done at full size with 2.25" circles and a 4.5x9 playing surface.

All it illustrates is the shifting lines with distance WHEN the CB and object balls are on the same center string.

Given that in CTE the Center of the CB is the focal point to which both the CTE line and the (unknown to the shooter) GB line pass though it was merely an observance that these lines diverge at the back of the cueball at tiny distances from each other.

What this means practically is that IF the shooter were to put there cue directly on the CTE line then the whole cue would be literally just an incredibly tiny shift away from the actual GB shot line.

That tiny shift at the back of the cue ball is literally a movement of a few inches at most in body position for the shooter.
 
Not really. But I will say that CTE seems to be along the lines of "get it" or "don't" and those that don't get it rarely continue to put in the effort to get it.

Every heard of the Khan Academy?

It is a foundation started by Sal Khan with the aim to change education from a one size fits all model to an at your own pace model. Meaning that current curriculums in most schools teach to a test with set milestones that all students are expected to have reached at the same time.

But in fact all students don't absorb information at the same pace. Khan Academy sets it up where the students have smaller tasks that need to be done and they go at their own pace with coaching as needed. Some kids race ahead and then slow down as the tasks get harder and other students are much slower with the easy material and then surpass the fast kids on the hard material. In the end though all students get a full understanding of the subject. Only the ones who quit don't get it.

I get your point. CTE however does work and so when you aren't able to get the same results as Stan then it's ONLY because you aren't yet applying it correctly not because Stan or any CTE student is steering all their shots. I am not questioning your intelligence. I also didn't "get it" for a long time and ended up using my own cobbled-together version that I gleaned from bits and pieces here and there, this was long before any one was putting up CTE videos on YouTube.

I was putting up CTE videos trying to understand it, showing what I knew or thought to be right at that time. I did have some decent success with those "wrong methods" even so and it was pointed out to me that I was steering the shots a lot back then. Even aftef I got the DVD I didn't take to it right away in the belief that "my" version of CTE was right due to the fact that I could make a lot of shots with it.

Anyway, while I admire your efforts I don't think that they are yet clearing anything up on the WHY and HOW CTE works. I feel you are still leaning towards subconscious adjustment and not thinking about how it can work mechanically.

John,

It can NOT be explained to work 'mechanically'. There are not enough objective markers along with the same 'defined' pivot to get ALL of the required outcome angles. Therefore it can be considered to work when one combines it with subjective analysis & subjective application. That does not mean at a conscious level. I know what you did & saw on your visit to Stan's, but you have thrown out & continue to throw out the subjectivity that solves the quandary.

As you have said, there are some rather intelligent individuals here on AZB. If it could be explained 'mechanically' or geometrically or mathematically don't you think someone would have done it by now if for no other reason but to put this 'war' to rest?

To open your mind you must consider that you may be deluding yourself & not admitting what your or one's subconscious can do & that it is extremely difficult to shut one's subconscious off when there is a goal on the table or up in the air.

I seriously doubt that this will go anywhere 'with you' or the other participants. So it's really just for any party out there that is interested & reading.

Best Wishes.
 
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The diagram is done at full size with 2.25" circles and a 4.5x9 playing surface.

All it illustrates is the shifting lines with distance WHEN the CB and object balls are on the same center string.

Given that in CTE the Center of the CB is the focal point to which both the CTE line and the (unknown to the shooter) GB line pass though it was merely an observance that these lines diverge at the back of the cueball at tiny distances from each other.

What this means practically is that IF the shooter were to put there cue directly on the CTE line then the whole cue would be literally just an incredibly tiny shift away from the actual GB shot line.

That tiny shift at the back of the cue ball is literally a movement of a few inches at most in body position for the shooter.

John,

So did you catch LAmasitus?

What's your point?

Best Wishes.
 
John,

It can NOT be explained to work 'mechanically'. There are not enough objective markers along with the same 'defined' pivot to get ALL of the required outcome angles. Therefore it can be considered to work when one combines it with subjective analysis & subjective application. That does not mean at a conscious level. I know what you did & saw on your visit to Stan's, but you have thrown out & continue to throw out the subjectivity that solves the quandary.

As you have said, there are some rather intelligent individuals here on AZB. If it could be explained 'mechanically' or geometrically or mathematically don't you think someone would have done it by now if for no other reason but to put this 'war' to rest?

To open your mind you must consider that you may be deluding yourself & not admitting what your or one's subconscious can do & that it is extremely difficult to shut one's subconscious off when there is a goal is on the table or up in the air.

I seriously doubt that this will go anywhere 'with you' or the other participants. So it's really just for any party out there that is interested & reading.

Best Wishes.

Not by you. But I think Lamas is close to understanding why it might work mechanically.

Your viewpoint on this subject is extremely biased and poisoned. If this were a diving competition your scores would be the ones thrown out after each dive.
 
English,

I don't like to pivot but it can be used for aiming like some of Hal's original thoughts that included different tip offsets.

One can aim the center of the CB at the contact point on the OB, parallel shift the cue to the center of the OB, pivot back to the center of the CB and then shoot.

I have proffered this before. It was/is simple to explain....I just did.:thumbup:

It is more parsimonious than what is being "discussed" in this thread.

Be well
 
[snip]

I'm soon done here.

[snip]

Finally time for me to weigh in on this monstrosity of a thread. Non CTE'er here.

Thank everything that is good for the above quoted material. I can only hope it is true and ENGLISH! will be gone from this discussion thread very soon (not banned), like yesterday for instance. Can I get an Amen?

Rick, no offense, and nothing personal, but you really do need to be MUZZLED, as JoeyA likes to put it...you do not and have not added a single thing to this conversation. ZERO.

Neil - comes with some good written descriptors about what is going on with the perceptions and CTE in general.

JB and Dan - debating civilly and rationally after taking things to the table and both producing videos I can respect.

PJ - has a scientific mind and a succinct style I can respect.

You - childlike behavior and a modus operandi that is so transparent a blind man could see it. Arguing for argument's sake. Attempting to rally others to your side. Word games. Baiting. Shall I go on?

Perhaps there is a topic you can contribute something positive to...Given your propensity to love to post at the rate of a rabbit fugging a football, may I suggest you find that topic and have it?

Dispense some of your knowledge from your nearly 50 years of "experience" You do have something worthwhile to share after all that time in the game, don't you? Good luck. I am praying for you...

Signed,

The Silent Majority (of at least one)

P.S. I voted "feel". Apologies to anyone I missed who has contributed positively on anything regarding aiming or any technique for that matter...and then he was gone...poof...back to the shadows. :smile:
 
Not by you. But I think Lamas is close to understanding why it might work mechanically.

Your viewpoint on this subject is extremely biased and poisoned. If this were a diving competition your scores would be the ones thrown out after each dive.

Diving is not a display of one's intellectual critical thinking ability. I'm not saying that one does not have to think to dive. It's just not the same thing, but you extremely often use very poor fitting analogies.

I think you may be misinterpreting what's being put out.

Once again, attack the messenger to avoid the message.

Best Wishes & Sleep Well.
 
Finally time for me to weigh in on this monstrosity of a thread. Non CTE'er here.

Thank everything that is good for the above quoted material. I can only hope it is true and ENGLISH! will be gone from this discussion thread very soon (not banned), like yesterday for instance. Can I get an Amen?

Rick, no offense, and nothing personal, but you really do need to be MUZZLED, as JoeyA likes to put it...you do not and have not added a single thing to this conversation. ZERO.

Neil - comes with some good written descriptors about what is going on with the perceptions and CTE in general.

JB and Dan - debating civilly and rationally after taking things to the table and both producing videos I can respect.

PJ - has a scientific mind and a succinct style I can respect.

You - childlike behavior and a modus operandi that is so transparent a blind man could see it. Arguing for argument's sake. Attempting to rally others to your side. Word games. Baiting. Shall I go on?

Perhaps there is a topic you can contribute something positive to...Given your propensity to love to post at the rate of a rabbit fugging a football, may I suggest you find that topic and have it?

Dispense some of your knowledge from your nearly 50 years of "experience" You do have something worthwhile to share after all that time in the game, don't you? Good luck. I am praying for you...

Signed,

The Silent Majority (of at least one)

P.S. I voted "feel". Apologies to anyone I missed who has contributed positively on anything regarding aiming or any technique for that matter...and then he was gone...poof...back to the shadows. :smile:

Thanks for contributing to the topic at hand.

Neil's perspective hypothesis does not fit the science given the previously described parameters.

PJ & I actually agree on this topic.

Dan has found what might seem to be a hick-up that John is doing his best to totally dismiss.

I'm in a hostile environment responding occasionally to the vitriol being initially sent my way when the messenger is attacked instead of dealing with the message & that is because the message can not be dealt with.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to make those points.

Best Wishes to You & May You Live a Long & Prosperous Life

PS I meant that I was done with Neil Here Tonight. It appears you made an ASSumption.
 
That it did. Do you feel you won because John was using cte?


I think it definitely messed him up.

On some shots, whatever lines he thought he was seeing worked. But on many other shots the system was lying to him and the internal conflict in his brain between what the system was telling him and his mind telling him "that's not right" produced all those tremendous swoops in the pictures. He didn't know which way to go.

Lou Figueroa
 
Diving is not a display of one's intellectual critical thinking ability. I'm not saying that one does not have to think to dive. It's just not the same thing, but you extremely often use very poor fitting analogies.

I think you may be misinterpreting what's being put out.

Once again, attack the messenger to avoid the message.

Best Wishes & Sleep Well.
You misunderstood the reference. In diving the high and low scores are thrown out to account for bias among the judges.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 
I think it definitely messed him up.

On some shots, whatever lines he thought he was seeing worked. But on many other shots the system was lying to him and the internal conflict in his brain between what the system was telling him and his mind telling him "that's not right" produced all those tremendous swoops in the pictures. He didn't know which way to go.

Lou Figueroa
What messed me up was the emotional state I was in.

I had you beaten and just played like a donkey.

Cte was fine. I wasn't.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 
I'm not trying to get in the middle of this, but I thought I would share my experience with aiming systems.

When I first started playing, I was told over and over that I "have a good eye", whatever that's supposed to mean. I later discovered that the way I've naturally seen shots since the very beginning has a name and is actually a "system" similar to what Mr. Stroud and others spoke of earlier. From the beginning, I would look at the path of the OB to the pocket, get the CP, and go back to the CB and look at The path from CTP to CTP. Behind the CB, I would look at the overlap created by the CP on the CB to the edge of the CB when the CPs are lined up. Then I ditched the CP all together and shot at the overlap.

My biggest problem before CTE was getting my body and vision center in such a position that my cue flows through the shot on the correct line. For many years, unless I was just in dead punch, I felt awkward over the shot and and like I might miss at any given time.

About 7 years ago I pretty much quit playing and went back to college. My focus shifted from riding the highs to building my worst game up for consistency, because you can't ride the highs when you are out of stroke and there are none. On my journey to improve my weaknesses, I was introduced to CTE and, like many others, was extremely skeptical. I've been given so much bad advice over the years that I immediately dismissed the idea as BS. But I tried it anyway.

Fact is, I've tried it, quit, and gone back again quite a few times. I've had mixed feelings about the system, but I'm to the point now that I'm not going back to my old way of doing things.

My reason is is simple.. it works for me. I've found that I can switch from manually pivoting on a bad, or off, day to just using more of a Pro One approach when I'm feeling good. And I'm to the point now where I'm comfortable enough that there is very little conscious thought to the process. I no longer look at the shot and mentally say, "CTE-ETB with a right pivot". My brain just processes the visuals and I roll with it.

The one single thing that made me turn the corner and and actually made this system work for me was finally understanding how to approach the CB, lock in on the visuals, and move into the shot WHILE KEEPING THE VISUALS FIXED. As Stan likes to say, the eyes lead and the body follows. I don't have that awkward feeling when I'm down on the shot anymore. My body just falls into the correct place and my cue is on line.

I have several acquaintances on this forum on both sides of the debate, from the very outspoken ones who vehemently oppose the system to others who view it as the best thing since sliced bread.

I will say this though, I use systems for a lot of things...kicking banking and now aiming. My comfortable approach to any task is a very regimented, methodical, almost military style..so this suits me.

I've also said this on these forums before and stand by it. I view systems as useful tools to enhance your existing skills, not replace them. No system in and of itself is going to make anyone a great player. Lots of table time is required to develop a solid straight stroke and repeatable accurate delivery. The only system for that is table time and hard work. (That I know of) What stands out as a big advantage for CTE users is that you are placed in a very strong position to start with. Of course you still have to make the ball and you can't do that without putting in work on your delivery.

Anyway, have fun gents. I just wanted to throw that perspective out there for those who might be on the fence about whether or not to even learn an aiming system. Just some food for thought.

I feel that correct body alinement to the path of the cue ball is the most important part of being able to deliver a straight stroke.

That is the biggest problem I see with the CTE method. All that pivoting and calculating. Way too complicated. No real target.

"Accum's Razor" says it best. "The simplest solution is usually the best."

Bill S.
 
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