Is that litter?
cut induced throw?
- Thread starter Redwing4114
- Start date
Is that litter?
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
It doesn't reduce friction. Friction is a unit-less ratio and is not dependent on speed. It may reduce the effect of friction (which we are calling 'throw'), but the friction is the same.
Please use terms correctly, it makes it difficult for those who understand this stuff when people randomly make up definitions for existing words.
I see you didn't have any problem understanding - but thanks for the correction.
pj
chgo
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
I figured it, but it took a few minutes.
I really don't try to be an asshat, but I've spent enough time tutoring students and explaining things that I have seen the damage caused by confusion due to misunderstanding of a simple concept.
My guess would be that the size of the pocket handles that then. It is actually a good question.
I use CTE and 90/90 and I don't find myself compensating for CIT. Or maybe I do subconsciously since the compensation itself has to likely be measured in increments of .01mm - but I think that CTE brings me to the slight overcut line which if true would compensate for the CIT as I understand CIT and how one would compensate if told to do so deliberately.
What I certainly don't do anymore is try to spin the ball in to compensate for CIT (if I ever actually did in the first place)
I spin the ball when it is needed for shape. Otherwise I am trying to shoot center ball and use high, low and speed to control the shape. I personally do not think about CIT because of the way I aim.
Tor Lowry though has a segment on one of his YouTube videos, forgive me for not providing a link, where he says aim for the over cut to the pocket point and that will be enough to compensate for CIT every time.
This works in all conditions? slick cloth vs slow cloth, humid/dry, dirty/waxed etc...
Is there a Dr. Dave video on this? Not being a dick but you usually don't use absolutes like "eliminates in all conditions".
Here is the thing with HAMB.....last night we played a team with decent shooters but it was clear that they didn't know a lot of the finer points of pool. The could all run balls on a valley bar box but for any shots that were slightly tricky they dogged it. This is where the knowledge of the nuances of things like throw, gearing, and so on come into play.
If you haven't gotten to a million balls yet then perhaps this conversation helps you while you are still at 100,000.
If the CB hits the OB with that amount of side spin there will be no rubbing between them, and therefore no throw/skid. Getting the CB to do that under different conditions (shot distance, speed, ball/table conditions) requires some judgment though. That's why it's just a rule of thumb.
pj
chgo
I played for thirty years and never once knew about all these things. Just fired a lot of balls at the hole and eventually most of them started to go in. If I knew about all the things that can screw you up I would have quit the game back in the 70's.
Same with deflection. I accept that it exists and is inescapable, but the fact is I never consciously allow for it, even when hitting way out on the ball. Somehow my brain figured all that stuff out for me all by itself, which is good because I'd never be able to figure it out on purpose.
<<<:thumbup2:>>>
Actually, the effective coefficient of friction between the balls is much less at higher relative surface speeds during CB-OB contact. For more info, see page 4 in TP A.14 - The effects of cut angle, speed, and spin on object ball throw.
The speed effects apply only when the CB and OB are not gearing together. Speed has no effect on CIT for small cut-angle shots. For more info, see item 16 and related items in the list on the squirt/swerve/throw effects resource page.
Enjoy,
Dave
Maximum throw is typically in the range of one inch per foot of OB travel (about 5 degrees).
Obviously, the rule you cite (if it is cited correctly) will work only for modest amounts of throw and/or for short distance shots. If you hit a slow stun shot, with the OB having a large distance to the pocket, you need to compensate a lot more than half the width of a pocket (even with huge pockets).
For more info, see the maximum throw resource page.
Regards,
Dave
For those interested, for more information on and demonstrations of this rule, see the gearing outside english resource page.
Enjoy,
Dave
Yes. Gearing outside english eliminates CIT under all conditions. If the CB is not rubbing against the OB during contact, there can be no throw whatsoever.
Yes. Here it is:
NV E.3 - Using "Gearing" Outside English to Eliminate Throw, from HAPS I
Enjoy,
Dave
PS: BTW, cloth properties have no effect on throw whatsoever (although, they can affect swerve quite a bit).
i've been playing for 55 years at a pretty high level and I'm constantly amazed that so many people want to make a rather simple game so complicated.
i just aim fire and the balls go in the hole.Not a lot of thinking. I guess after all these years my brain is on auto pilot.
I never read about aiming systems,deflection or anything that might make me second guess what i've been doing.
I will watch videos of the great players to see how they run balls.patterns and position play. and i have seen a few things that made me say whoa I would not have thought to do that. and i tuck it away for when that situation comes up.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
This is interesting as it is either poorly explained, poorly understood or negates much of my education.
On one hand, your paper refers to effective friction impulse (or something similar), but then refers to actual different coefficients of friction. On the other hand, even here you refer to 'effective' coefficient of friction.
Now, if this is similar to static vs. dynamic friction, I can understand that. Maybe even my understanding of the static vs. dynamic friction is incomplete and perhaps dynamic friction behaves on a more variable level than I thought (which I've always considered a reasonable theory).
When I have more time, I'll do more research.
ElCorazonFrio
Banned
Maybe you misunderstand the people posting.
I don't think of formulas and such when I am playing, but I thoroughly enjoy it.
I'm constantly amazed at people who demean those who attempt to understand that which they can do. Were it not for people such as these, you wouldn't have LD shafts, layered tips, leather tips or even chalk. You also wouldn't have radial tires on your car...which you also wouldn't have. You wouldn't have this forum and you'd be playing pool by gas lantern...oops, someone invented by understanding something simple like fire, so that wouldn't happen either.
You'd be playing no pool and you'd be not playing by light of tallow candles.
So, take your 55 years of playing this simple game using complicated equipment, supported by even more complicated infrastructure and keep being proud of your ignorance.
I'll be over here with the people who further understanding...I'll be the guy trying to keep up.
Ron Swanson
Banned
Much of this science shit is entirely counterproductive when you are actually playing.
In fact, you must forget it completely, and that takes practice.
Ron Swanson
Banned
Classic example of the importance of forgetting the science when playing: I'd never heard of (nor experienced) gearing until recently but now I'm missing balls all the time because of it.
If you want to play good pool, you need to free your mind from such shackles and just play.