Same Old Same Old

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

Fargo 1000 on VP4
Silver Member
Here's a link to a 15-year-old RSB thread about Hal Houle's teachings that JB Cases posted in another thread:

Hal Houle is For Real

I post it here again so those who don't know can see that the same old arguments were going on back then as go on now about similar systems - its "champions" made hyperbolic claims about its powers, but couldn't describe it coherently. It was an old problem even then...

Here's Mike Page's response in that old thread, summing up the problem nicely - nothing much has changed since then:

"John, it's getting a little too mystical and starting to sound like some of the former Hal Houle revelations (Houlivations).

Our experience in the past has been the Houlivations follow a consistent pattern. The Houlivatee makes pronouncements about amazing, almost mystical discoveries and posts about it here. Readers' interest gets very high as everyone wants a sip of the magic elixer. And then when the Houlitavee is asked to be more specific, the puzzle pieces don't fit. It's like waking up from a dream with wonderful new insight and understanding. You rush to get a pen and pad of paper, but when the pen meets the paper the dream is gone."

pj <- a little historical perspective
chgo
 
"It's ludicrous to call people closed minded for not believing something you
can't even describe, much less explain."

LOLed at this.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Here's a link to a 15-year-old RSB thread about Hal Houle's teachings that JB Cases posted in another thread:

Hal Houle is For Real

I post it here again so those who don't know can see that the same old arguments were going on back then as go on now about similar systems - its "champions" made hyperbolic claims about its powers, but couldn't describe it coherently. It was an old problem even then...

Here's Mike Page's response in that old thread, summing up the problem nicely - nothing much has changed since then:

"John, it's getting a little too mystical and starting to sound like some of the former Hal Houle revelations (Houlivations).

Our experience in the past has been the Houlivations follow a consistent pattern. The Houlivatee makes pronouncements about amazing, almost mystical discoveries and posts about it here. Readers' interest gets very high as everyone wants a sip of the magic elixer. And then when the Houlitavee is asked to be more specific, the puzzle pieces don't fit. It's like waking up from a dream with wonderful new insight and understanding. You rush to get a pen and pad of paper, but when the pen meets the paper the dream is gone."

pj <- a little historical perspective
chgo
Click to expand...

Yes and in all that time you haven't bothered to try and learn it so that YOU could explain it.

Imagine you were given a telescope and not told HOW it works. You could look through it and see far things and you could tell people it works but you wouldn't know anything about optics to explain to them HOW it works.

Well if your buddies told you that you were full of shit and refused to even look through the telescope would they be wrong?

Of course they would because at the very least they could try the telescope and get benefit from it without even needing to know how a telescope works.

I understood Mike's point but I don't think it's fair to put it on the users of the system to have to explain how it works. If you want to know how it works and you are analytical enough then LEARN IT - DESCRIBE IT - DEMONSTRATE PROFICIENT USE OF IT and THEN DISSECT IT. If you can't do that then stay out of it.

So yes, it's the same old same old. You don't bother to learn how to use the method and yet make assertions about how it works and how it doesn't work. You continue to call people names over it, make comparisons to religious fanatics, call those who teach these methods snake-oil salesmen and similar put downs.

You are directly responsible for the creation of a DVD and a forthcoming book on Hal's system.

You guys have spent so many years putting anyone down who tries to learn these methods that you have created the wedges that exist. Without the put downs these systems would be discussed by a few people and the conversations would die off quickly. But you all have made people into the fanatics you claimed they were. That's why we won't stop promoting these methods against your incessant and incorrect criticism.
 
and no, for the millionth time the dream isn't gone when pen meets paper.

The results obtained on the table are more than enough to justify continued use.

In the shotmaking tests presented on AZB over the years system users consistently finish at the highest levels, often at the very top. System users often report increased success in their leagues and tournaments. System users report that they enjoy playing more than ever since they began pocketing balls with a higher degree of accuracy and consistency.

So, no Mike Page's statement doesn't sum it up accurately at all.
 
JB Cases said:
...Mike Page's statement doesn't sum it up accurately at all.
Click to expand...
You don't seem to understand his words. He said nobody could describe the specifics of the system - that's still true.

Anyway, it's just a look into the history of the "aiming system wars" to show that nothing has changed on that front.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You don't seem to understand his words. He said nobody could describe the specifics of the system - that's still true.

Anyway, it's just a look into the history of the "aiming system wars" to show that nothing has changed on that front.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Don't even think for 1 minute that I can't describe the specifics......My $5000 to your $1000...........let's decide on a poolroom halfway between our locations.....
I am all go.......tomorrow? Later this week?

Stan Shuffett
 
Patrick Johnson said:
You don't seem to understand his words. He said nobody could describe the specifics of the system - that's still true.

Anyway, it's just a look into the history of the "aiming system wars" to show that nothing has changed on that front.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
We have described the system plenty of times.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Here's a link to a 15-year-old RSB thread about Hal Houle's teachings that JB Cases posted in another thread:

Hal Houle is For Real

I post it here again so those who don't know can see that the same old arguments were going on back then as go on now about similar systems - its "champions" made hyperbolic claims about its powers, but couldn't describe it coherently. It was an old problem even then...

Here's Mike Page's response in that old thread, summing up the problem nicely - nothing much has changed since then:

"John, it's getting a little too mystical and starting to sound like some of the former Hal Houle revelations (Houlivations).

Our experience in the past has been the Houlivations follow a consistent pattern. The Houlivatee makes pronouncements about amazing, almost mystical discoveries and posts about it here. Readers' interest gets very high as everyone wants a sip of the magic elixer. And then when the Houlitavee is asked to be more specific, the puzzle pieces don't fit. It's like waking up from a dream with wonderful new insight and understanding. You rush to get a pen and pad of paper, but when the pen meets the paper the dream is gone."

pj <- a little historical perspective
chgo
Click to expand...

It is kinda funny that the guys who never learned Hal's systems have argued against them for over 15 years. Long time to go being wrong.
 
thanks - Today, 08:54 AM
hi john
my name is xxx-xxxx. I saw your videos on cte on you tube a couple of years ago. I contacted stan shuffet and got his video. I have studied his videos and other videos on cte and other aiming systems. It has been incredible for me and my game. Your passion for the game and the cte concepts have been inspired me and I wanted to thank you

(name withheld to protect the innocent from harassment)
 
You're and Loler of the worst kind

skip100 said:
"It's ludicrous to call people closed minded for not believing something you
can't even describe, much less explain."

LOLed at this.
Click to expand...

You're and Lol er of the worst kind, almost as if you suggest "feel" has anything to do with it? Such blasphemy! Its an outrage!
 
skip100 said:
"It's ludicrous to call people closed minded for not believing something you
can't even describe, much less explain."

LOLed at this.
Click to expand...

Yep:

"Patrick Johnson" <REMOVEpj@21stCentury.net> wrote in message
news:39F0D114.529B70CE@21stCentury.net...
> I have nothing against Hal or any of his ideas. I don't think I've ever
heard
> one here.
>
> It's ludicrous to call people closed minded for not believing something
you
> can't even describe, much less explain.
>
> Pat Johnson
> Chicago
>
Are you addressing me Pat? I haven't attempted to explain the systems
because I am still working on them. I suffered from a little information
overload. I also didn't call anybody close minded. I said that it's
comparable to those who have been introduced to the information and are not
open to it. If I take a beginner and tell him that to achieve draw he has
to hit below center and he chooses not to believe me does it make my
statement less true? Also I probably would have dismissed these systems had
I only read them.

I will try to explain what I understood of the systems. The basic premise
is that because every table is a perfect rectangle then spheres which are
aimed at one another in a certain way are always heading towards a pocket.
Whether directly into a pocket or traveling over cushions the object ball is
always heading towards a pocket when aimed using the system. This means
that it is possible to pocket just about any shot without ever lining up the
object ball to a pocket. It is possible to make almost any bank shot
without ever looking for a spot on the rail.

I know this sounds like hogwash but I can do it now. Bob Johnson is my
witness. He can do it. Does this mean I will now make everything I shoot
at? Not at all. I have to retrain my brain to aim the same way every time
and I have to retrain my body to stroke without reverting to my old way.

With this system you aim the same way for every shot and then you apply the
spin and speed you need. Duh right? Doesn't every good player do this?
Yes but then why do they miss? Why are certain shots more difficult than
others? Why is a long thin cut shot tougher than a short thick cut shot?
With this system I found that both shots are the same. Both shots are aimed
exactly the same way. Hal has many variations on his aiming system but they
are all exactly the same in results. They are all parallel, which means
that if you aim at one point then there has to be an opposite that lines up
as well or your aim is not correct. This is sort of a checks and balances.
If both points line up where they are supposed to then the shot will not
miss providing you stroke straight through the cueball. When I have more
time I will try to diagram what I am talking about.

I do know this: I have been fortunate enough learn something that is not
common knowledge but really works every time. No matter what else I do I
will always be thankful that after all the frustration I have experienced
with this game someone was able to open the doors and make me appreciate it
again.

John
 
"Pat,

I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't quote me out of context. I
guess you know me enough by now to know that I don't go off on a subject
unless I believe in what I am saying. Please accord me that respect. You
know I have a decent, nowhere near worldbeater, game and you know that I
play well enough to separate BS from the genuine thing. The guy is 78 and
all he wants to do is share his knowledge. Anyone who is serious about
improving their game should at least try his systems for the sheer knowledge
factor. If they are wrong then no one will make a ball - end of story.

This is ridiculous, it's really getting religious. Like the saying, 'if you
are right that there is no God then nothing will change, but what if you're
wrong?' Except in this case it's tangible and provable. I am sorry that I
can't explain the systems right away but I haven't been working on them for
35 years either.

This guy has been around Greenleaf, Lassiter, Crane and all the famous pros
you can name. At the very least he deserves some respect by the virtue of
his experience.

If I come across awestruck it's because I am.

John"
 
JB Cases said:
The basic premise is that because every table is a perfect rectangle then spheres which are aimed at one another in a certain way are always heading towards a pocket.
Click to expand...
If you don't think this is utter nonsense, you could be a Houligan.

If the table was round, would you need square balls?

pj
chgo
 
cookie man said:
It is kinda funny that the guys who never learned Hal's systems have argued against them for over 15 years. Long time to go being wrong.
Click to expand...

What's even funnier is there are two threads going in the aiming section about
CP2CP, something Pat Johnson has used since he first picked up a cue 20 years ago at age 47. Although he played only once or twice a week for many years until retirement, within 2 years of starting to play he was already an EXPERT on the subject of how to play when he made his first BASHING post about Hal and CTE in 1997.

One would think he could write his own thesis in these threads about the subject of Contact Point aiming because he had to analyze it to death from the start with graphs, charts, protractors, laser beams, lines, geometry, math, physics, coriolis force, gravity, humidity, and whatever else he thinks matters that's really a load of crap.

But what does he choose to do? Not much of anything with those threads in a POSITIVE fashion. Instead, he created another NEGTATIVE thread about CTE, Hal, JB, and whoever else gets sucked into the vortex of his obsession and insanity regarding CTE and it's creators.

This has to be one of the sickest minds on any type of forum in existence to keep it up for 18 straight years on an almost DAILY BASIS. What a waste and what a miserable existence.
 
Last edited:
SpiderWebComm said:
Pat Johnson ... first picked up a cue 20 years ago
Click to expand...
lol

How can you be so obsessed with me and get such basic facts wrong? I've played pool since I was a teenager. I started playing a lot twenty-some years ago. I started playing daily a few years ago.

If you can't remember these basic facts I'll have to get a new stalker who can.

pj <- can't get good stalkers any more
chgo
 
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