Same Old Same Old

Hi Pat.

I wanted to make a statement, and try to stay on topic for your thread. We are all well aware that CTE aiming has been a controversial pool topic for years, as seen here on AZB on nearly a daily basis. However, I I'd like to split the controversy into two subjects.

SUBJECT #1) The explanation of how CTE works.

This is by and far the biggest controversy around CTE aiming. I'm not talking about instructions how to execute CTE, but rather the technical details how it actually works. I think it is very clear that there has never been an explanation that everyone agrees with. I want to emphasize that part in bold. We know the words that bring pain points. "objective". "feel". "perception".

If you look at Hal's document posted in 1997, it is clear that if you took that set of words as literal (protractor) alignment instructions, it would not possibly work for all angles. However if you take the information to the table, you may (or may not) find some interesting correlations to what he was eluding to. Hal never gave anything to anyone on a platter, he would give you bits and pieces of information. Many think his 3 angle document was partially to get a rise, but also as a hint, a start, a path of how to unlock CTE.

SUBJECT #2) Does CTE actually work?

Now, for a moment I want to set aside all the nomenclature used to examine and explain CTE up to this point. I'm not going to debate what is "objective" and what is "feel" or anything else. But I do want to make a very clear statement here. I know there are people that think CTE works. Even from those that don't use it. There are also the ones that think it is a completely false claim, and that users must be subconsciously falling back to old methods to steer the shots.

On this subject, I'd like to speak from experience. Firstly, I hope you agree that I speak honestly, or this conversation won't even work. I have nothing to gain by pretending CTE works. If I were steering shots I would have dismissed the system years ago. I am to the point where I use CTE for all shots on the table. There are obvious exceptions like aiming a ball somewhere other than a pocket.

Now, I'm going to explain a little bit about how CTE works for me, purely from a procedural standpoint. I'm also not teaching the system, I'm only going to describe what is already out there in hundreds of videos. Firstly when I approach a shot, I'm making a decision what perception I'm going to be using (15, 30, 45, 60), and what pivot direction. This becomes very quick with experience, almost unconscious. Now I put my eyes on that perception. I know there are arguments around that statement, but I have been able to put myself on a perception very consistently and precisely for some time now. There is no guessing if a perception is "on" or not, it only looks perfect from one place. It is consistent and repeatable with any given shot. Now it is a matter of going in on the center cue ball at the 1/2 tip offset. There is only one center cue ball for my vision center. I'm doing the same thing every time. Once at the offset, I again look at center cue ball from there, and turn my cue onto it. There is only one center cue ball line for my vision center here, and the cue must be directly on it. A simple turn on the bridge is enough (see my pivot dissection article in the link below for details on that.) And, assuming I have no major blunders with stroke, spin, speed, or other human errors and table conditions, that ball is heading to the intended pocket. Only recently Stan has also exposed some "full circle" information that lets you double check if you moved perfectly into the shot. You can look up that video or ask him directly for more information about it.

I have got to the point where the above steps are exactly how I shoot every shot. I trust the system completely and look at CCB last. This works for shots directly to pockets, banks, and shots with the pocket covered. Now if the system didn't work, how on earth can I possibly have any sort of success within the confinement of the steps given above? This cannot possibly work with any consistency if the system was not valid, would you agree? The curtain demos and bank demos are there merely to demonstrate that the shots are made using the system. Not setup shots, not practiced shots, just shots using CTE. This can be discovered for ones self given a little commitment and willing to try something different.

So I guess my statement is, that SUBJECT #1, yes I agree we have no unanimous agreement to explain how CTE works technically, and SUBJECT #2, I will have to say irrefutably that CTE works, it works within the confinement of the given steps, and it works without steering or adjustments made after the fact. This can clearly be understood by learning, using and trusting the system for yourself.
 
It's been covered many times before. You didn't acknowledge it then, why should I go to the trouble of typing it out again now? The terms you call fuzzy-wuzzy are only that way to those that make no or very little effort to even learn the system.
I'll confess that I haven't read every post of every thread on the subject. I know it might be hard to work up the motivation to explain something to someone for whom you expect only a negative response, no matter what you say. But I think you're one of the more thoughtful people on the forum and if you could explicate just the 2 x 1 connection, I'd be all ears. (I should say, though, that the description by Hal supplied by Duckie above, just wouldn't cut it.)

Honestly, you guys sound like a bunch of guys in algebra class complaining how it makes no sense when you haven't even learned basic math yet. But, you still want to come across as experts on algebra.
If someone tried to sell you a perpetual motion machine, would you purchase the kit and undertake a lengthy study of it?

Jim
 
My attorney would be Stan's expense. But you'd be there for him, right?

pj
chgo

Keep believing you'd get out of this without paying a dime and continue to run your cocky blustering mouth. Hal had no monetary interest in the aiming system and never asked for a dime in lessons. Stan has invested quite a bit of time and money into the production of the system itself, the dvds, and now the book. He has certifications in every major billiard organization to teach and is one of the most highly respected men in the industry by his peers, professionally taught lessons over 20 years, and a 30+ years as a school teacher lend itself to professionalism and credibility. Your certifications and background in pool or outside of pool as an educator lending itself to professionalism and credibility...
NOTHING!! NOTHING AT ALL!!

You control your own destiny. This is no longer forum flame wars where you've had your sick fun for 18 years. It's BUSINESS. Defamation of character, harassment, and cyberstalking can be easily displayed with your thousands of inflammatory posts and threads over two decades. You do know most states now have cyberstalking laws, don't you? Of course you do, you're a genius. It can also apply to forums.
 
Last edited:
Mohrt, excellent post, i would like to address the "subconscious adjustments" theory. Im not yet as proficient as Mohrt, but I've been using the system long enough to also trust it. If i get down on my shot using the steps Mohrt described and something looks wrong, i stand up and repeat the steps, there are no adjustments. I know this because sometimes i get lazy and try to adjust at ball address and it usually goes bad. There is always a pivot/ sweep for every shot from one side or the other. That pivot/sweep is always 1/2 tip left or right. The only variation is the bridge distance for the manual pivot depending on the distance between CB and OB.
When I miss my shot, the system tells me what it was I did wrong. It is almost always apparent whether I chose the wrong perception, sweep, or whether it was a bad stroke issue.

Sent from my SM-G860P using Tapatalk
 
The reason that there are no issues with the descriptions of other systems used is because they can be explained in clear terms with diagrams.

All CTE users can do is make statements without proof.

Well in a court of law, that ain't gonna work. Proof will be needed. Real documented proof and not just statements without facts and thats all Stan has. There is a difference in poking holes in CTE and bad mouthing Stan which PJ has not done.

If the system has merit, than nothing anyone can say about it that will do harm. I mean the statement has been made that CTE growing world wide which kinda goes against the harming Stans sells of it.

Threatening lawsuits, especially frivolous one like this, (if it ever happens) is just showing how weak a person is themselves.

Shows a lack of belief in CTE.

You've come up with some of the most ridiculous posts in the history of the pool forums. I don't know if anyone can top yours.

This one takes the cake. IT'S NOT CTE ITSELF THAT NEEDS TO BE PROVEN IN COURT OF LAW..IT'S THE ACTIONS OF ONE PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL WHO IS INVOLVED IN HARASSMENT, CYBERSTALKING, AN LIBEL AGAINST ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL AND ATTEMPTING TO HARM HIS CURRENT AND FUTURE BUSINESS AS WELL AS MONEY INVESTED IN THE BUSINESS.

And you were supposed to be an Engineer? WOW!!
 
Stan has said his last word on the forum as to how this will proceed until he takes action and I have to respect his wishes as well.

Choose your words and actions wisely.
 
I'll confess that I haven't read every post of every thread on the subject. I know it might be hard to work up the motivation to explain something to someone for whom you expect only a negative response, no matter what you say. But I think you're one of the more thoughtful people on the forum and if you could explicate just the 2 x 1 connection, I'd be all ears. (I should say, though, that the description by Hal supplied by Duckie above, just wouldn't cut it.)

If someone tried to sell you a perpetual motion machine, would you purchase the kit and undertake a lengthy study of it?

Jim

Jal, just like CTE has different perspectives, words do to. I am quite sure, given your math background, that the phrase 2x1 connection has a far different meaning for you than it does for me.

I don't understand the math. But, I don't need to understand it to use the system. What I have found is that I agree with the 2x1 statement. Here's why: Say I have a shot that I can't cut it in, safe is not an option, so I have to bank it in cross side. Now, the obvious choice would be one rail cross side. However, having worked with the system, I know that if I follow the steps correctly, this bank will come up short every single time. But, what I also know, is that if I hit it a little harder, it not only comes up short for the one rail bank, but it goes to rails to the opposite side every time!

There are a number of shots like that in the system, the ball doesn't always go to the obvious pocket, but it does find a pocket in 1, 2, or 3 rails. So, that tells me that there is some kind of connection there. Logic dictates that there has to be. And, for me, that is deep enough. I have no need to go deeper into it, as I am looking for results, not causation. For you, it is not enough. You, with your math background, need to see the causation of why that connection is there, or it is not there at all for you.

I have no need other than results, so I am free to see that the results are consistent, which logically means that there has to be some underlying math to it. No idea whatsoever what that math would be, and to be honest, I don't care what it is. It is enough for me just to know that it has to be there because of the results being so consistent.

So, yes, there is some connection there with the system and the pockets. And, others have found that it only works well on a 2x1 table.

As to the perpetual motion machine- Funny you should mention them. Just last month I was checking out a bunch of them on the internet. The basic premise of it is that you get out of it without putting into it. If you add energy, it doesn't meet the requirements of the system. It has to stand alone or it doesn't work. (has to make it's own energy)

So, before I purchased one, I would first look for the obvious claim that logic dictates has to be there. Does it make it's own power? If I have to plug it in to an outlet to make it work, well, kinda obvious it's not making it's own power. I would simply have to look at the results, no power in, power out, hey, we have something here to look deeper at. But, conversely, power in, forget it, doesn't work.

I look at CTE the same way. I looked at the results. Results were impressive enough to try it out. Didn't work for me. But, others were chiming in that it worked great for them. I figured that if they could do it, I could to. I learned to read the fine print in the system. Which simply was to follow the steps and don't add anything to it. It has to stand alone. It's a closed system so to speak. When I did that, I started getting results. Enough results to keep on with it.

Is it the end-all be-all to aiming? NO! There are idiosyncrasies to it that at times tell me to use another system for this type shot. (such as the bank example above) The system won't always take you to the pocket you want to go to. But it does take you to a pocket. Does that make the system bad? No, it just means it's not the magic pill that some seem to be looking for. It is another means to an end. And, a very reliable means.
 
Now I put my eyes on that perception....

...There is no guessing if a perception is "on" or not, it only looks perfect from one place...
mohrt,

Thanks for your input. You've always made honest attempts to describe what's going on. A couple of questions if I may.

1) How do you know a perception is on?

2) For all shots that use the same reference point on the object ball and the same pivot, are there different perceptions for the different cut angles, or do you do something different with the one perception?

Jim
 
mohrt,

Thanks for your input. You've always made honest attempts to describe what's going on. A couple of questions if I may.

1) How do you know a perception is on?

2) For all shots that use the same reference point on the object ball and the same pivot, are there different perceptions for the different cut angles, or do you do something different with the one perception?

Jim

Concerning #2-Mohrt has addressed that issue quite well on this forum at least a half dozen times.

As far as #1 goes....I have worked extensively with Mohrt concerning the details of your question and there is a reason why he did not include my instructional info in his post......

Stan Shuffett
 
Last edited:
Jal, just like CTE has different perspectives, words do to. I am quite sure, given your math background, that the phrase 2x1 connection has a far different meaning for you than it does for me.

I don't understand the math. But, I don't need to understand it to use the system. What I have found is that I agree with the 2x1 statement. Here's why: Say I have a shot that I can't cut it in, safe is not an option, so I have to bank it in cross side. Now, the obvious choice would be one rail cross side. However, having worked with the system, I know that if I follow the steps correctly, this bank will come up short every single time. But, what I also know, is that if I hit it a little harder, it not only comes up short for the one rail bank, but it goes to rails to the opposite side every time!

There are a number of shots like that in the system, the ball doesn't always go to the obvious pocket, but it does find a pocket in 1, 2, or 3 rails. So, that tells me that there is some kind of connection there. Logic dictates that there has to be. And, for me, that is deep enough. I have no need to go deeper into it, as I am looking for results, not causation. For you, it is not enough. You, with your math background, need to see the causation of why that connection is there, or it is not there at all for you.

I have no need other than results, so I am free to see that the results are consistent, which logically means that there has to be some underlying math to it. No idea whatsoever what that math would be, and to be honest, I don't care what it is. It is enough for me just to know that it has to be there because of the results being so consistent.

So, yes, there is some connection there with the system and the pockets. And, others have found that it only works well on a 2x1 table.

As to the perpetual motion machine- Funny you should mention them. Just last month I was checking out a bunch of them on the internet. The basic premise of it is that you get out of it without putting into it. If you add energy, it doesn't meet the requirements of the system. It has to stand alone or it doesn't work. (has to make it's own energy)

So, before I purchased one, I would first look for the obvious claim that logic dictates has to be there. Does it make it's own power? If I have to plug it in to an outlet to make it work, well, kinda obvious it's not making it's own power. I would simply have to look at the results, no power in, power out, hey, we have something here to look deeper at. But, conversely, power in, forget it, doesn't work.

I look at CTE the same way. I looked at the results. Results were impressive enough to try it out. Didn't work for me. But, others were chiming in that it worked great for them. I figured that if they could do it, I could to. I learned to read the fine print in the system. Which simply was to follow the steps and don't add anything to it. It has to stand alone. It's a closed system so to speak. When I did that, I started getting results. Enough results to keep on with it.

Is it the end-all be-all to aiming? NO! There are idiosyncrasies to it that at times tell me to use another system for this type shot. (such as the bank example above) The system won't always take you to the pocket you want to go to. But it does take you to a pocket. Does that make the system bad? No, it just means it's not the magic pill that some seem to be looking for. It is another means to an end. And, a very reliable means.

In other words, you made a adjustment to make a shot on a 2x1 table, not that the shot was made because of the 2x1 ratio.

Go to a different size ratio table, the same thing does occur, make a adjustment needed to make shot on this ratio table.

The only part the ratio of the table plays a part in is the amount of adjustment needed between the same shot on two different ratio table.

If you never looked for it, how do you know there is math in proving that CTE works because of the 2x1 ratio?

I stated before that CTE user believe it works because they were thinking something CTE when shooting and the shot goes in, therefore it must work.

You proved my point.
 
Jal, just like CTE has different perspectives, words do to. I am quite sure, given your math background, that the phrase 2x1 connection has a far different meaning for you than it does for me.

I don't understand the math. But, I don't need to understand it to use the system. What I have found is that I agree with the 2x1 statement. Here's why: Say I have a shot that I can't cut it in, safe is not an option, so I have to bank it in cross side. Now, the obvious choice would be one rail cross side. However, having worked with the system, I know that if I follow the steps correctly, this bank will come up short every single time. But, what I also know, is that if I hit it a little harder, it not only comes up short for the one rail bank, but it goes to rails to the opposite side every time!

There are a number of shots like that in the system, the ball doesn't always go to the obvious pocket, but it does find a pocket in 1, 2, or 3 rails. So, that tells me that there is some kind of connection there. Logic dictates that there has to be. And, for me, that is deep enough. I have no need to go deeper into it, as I am looking for results, not causation. For you, it is not enough. You, with your math background, need to see the causation of why that connection is there, or it is not there at all for you.

I have no need other than results, so I am free to see that the results are consistent, which logically means that there has to be some underlying math to it. No idea whatsoever what that math would be, and to be honest, I don't care what it is. It is enough for me just to know that it has to be there because of the results being so consistent.

So, yes, there is some connection there with the system and the pockets. And, others have found that it only works well on a 2x1 table.

As to the perpetual motion machine- Funny you should mention them. Just last month I was checking out a bunch of them on the internet. The basic premise of it is that you get out of it without putting into it. If you add energy, it doesn't meet the requirements of the system. It has to stand alone or it doesn't work. (has to make it's own energy)

So, before I purchased one, I would first look for the obvious claim that logic dictates has to be there. Does it make it's own power? If I have to plug it in to an outlet to make it work, well, kinda obvious it's not making it's own power. I would simply have to look at the results, no power in, power out, hey, we have something here to look deeper at. But, conversely, power in, forget it, doesn't work.

I look at CTE the same way. I looked at the results. Results were impressive enough to try it out. Didn't work for me. But, others were chiming in that it worked great for them. I figured that if they could do it, I could to. I learned to read the fine print in the system. Which simply was to follow the steps and don't add anything to it. It has to stand alone. It's a closed system so to speak. When I did that, I started getting results. Enough results to keep on with it.

Is it the end-all be-all to aiming? NO! There are idiosyncrasies to it that at times tell me to use another system for this type shot. (such as the bank example above) The system won't always take you to the pocket you want to go to. But it does take you to a pocket. Does that make the system bad? No, it just means it's not the magic pill that some seem to be looking for. It is another means to an end. And, a very reliable means.
Thanks for the reply, Neil.

Don't be too shocked, but I think I might have at least a slight glimmer of understanding of what you're describing.

First of all, if you're using the diamonds (i.e., the positions of the cueball and object ball with respect to them) to choose which reference point/alignment/perception, then it goes without saying that the ratio of the length to width of the table is all important. Of course, this isn't unique to CTE.

But I think the tendency for banks to "auto-correct" to some extent for over cuts and undercuts because of the different spins imparted to the object ball, make the quasi-discrete nature of CTE compatible with this phenomena. There's a wider range of cuts that'll get the job done, especially with variable shot speed factored in. So rather than having to pull hairs over exactly how to strike the object ball, choosing one from a limited set of options that CTE offers up could be just fine.

Of course, you may disagree.

I'll have to look into the devices you discovered. No more utility bills? (Nice analogy by the way.)

Jim... don't mean to give the impression that I'm about to convert or can make any sense out of this whole gall dang CTE business. :p
 
Hi Mohrt.

So I guess my statement is, that SUBJECT #1, yes I agree we have no unanimous agreement to explain how CTE works technically, and SUBJECT #2, I will have to say irrefutably that CTE works, it works within the confinement of the given steps, and it works without steering or adjustments made after the fact. This can clearly be understood by learning, using and trusting the system for yourself.
SUBJECT #1: Yes, this is the part of the descriptions of CTE that I've questioned.

SUBJECT #2: I've always agreed that CTE "works" for those who like it - but we have to be careful about what "works" means. You've made the usual mistake by conflating part of SUBJECT #1 into SUBJECT #2 by saying what I highlighted in blue above - i.e., you're confident of your shotmaking ability with CTE and therefore it "works without steering or adjustments".

Everybody who has practiced enough, no matter what their method, is confident of their shotmaking ability - does that mean no "steering or adjustments" with any method? Confidence doesn't tell you what you're doing; it just means you've gotten good at it. Getting good at practiced estimation ("feel" or "adjusting") doesn't make it something else.

pj
chgo
 
Thanks for the reply, Neil.

Don't be too shocked, but I think I might have at least a slight glimmer of understanding of what you're describing.

First of all, if you're using the diamonds (i.e., the positions of the cueball and object ball with respect to them) to choose which reference point/alignment/perception, then it goes without saying that the ratio of the length to width of the table is all important. Of course, this isn't unique to CTE.

But I think the tendency for banks to "auto-correct" to some extent for over cuts and undercuts because of the different spins imparted to the object ball, make the quasi-discrete nature of CTE compatible with this phenomena. There's a wider range of cuts that'll get the job done, especially with variable shot speed factored in. So rather than having to pull hairs over exactly how to strike the object ball, choosing one from a limited set of options that CTE offers up could be just fine.

Of course, you may disagree.

I'll have to look into the devices you discovered. No more utility bills? (Nice analogy by the way.)

Jim... don't mean to give the impression that I'm about to convert or can make any sense out of this whole gall dang CTE business. :p

As far as the perpetual motion machine, it doesn't exist. Nice if it did. Point was, with it, as with CTE, if you add something to it that wasn't there, it isn't what is described. Many want to add feel and what not when trying CTE. It won't work that way. It has to be followed by the steps.

As to your diamond reference, not sure what you are getting at there. CTE doesn't use the diamonds for anything.
 
In other words, you made a adjustment to make a shot on a 2x1 table, not that the shot was made because of the 2x1 ratio.

Go to a different size ratio table, the same thing does occur, make a adjustment needed to make shot on this ratio table.

The only part the ratio of the table plays a part in is the amount of adjustment needed between the same shot on two different ratio table.

If you never looked for it, how do you know there is math in proving that CTE works because of the 2x1 ratio?

I stated before that CTE user believe it works because they were thinking something CTE when shooting and the shot goes in, therefore it must work.

You proved my point.

You have no clue what I said, do you?
 
IT'S NOT CTE ITSELF THAT NEEDS TO BE PROVEN IN COURT OF LAW
But that would be one of the unfortunate results if this silliness ever went to court: Stan would lose (probably summarily) and CTE itself would be perceived by the general public as being "disproven" in a court of law.

I don't agree with that interpretation, but that's what would be said about CTE from then on whenever the subject came up. By going after me, who has always said CTE can work, you'll give high-caliber ammunition to those who say it can't. I hope Stan is grateful to you for that after all your expert legal advice.

pj
chgo
 
...As far as #1 goes....I have worked extensively with Mohrt concerning the details of your question and there is a reason why he did not include my instructional info in his post......

Stan Shuffett
Well, I can certainly understand why you don't want to give any secrets away for free here. I have seen your first DVD, sent to me by another member, but given the long history of non-explanatory explanations, maybe you can also see why I wouldn't want to invest much more time or any money without a hint of something truly revealing down the road.

Jim
 
There are a number of shots like that in the system, the ball doesn't always go to the obvious pocket, but it does find a pocket in 1, 2, or 3 rails. So, that tells me that there is some kind of connection there. Logic dictates that there has to be.
No, logic doesn't dictate that - but I can see how it appears that way to you.

Somebody once posted an estimate of how far any ball must travel before it must reach a pocket, no matter which direction it starts out in - it isn't as far as you might think. Does that mean every method (including none at all) has a "2:1 connection"? If it does then does "2:1 connection" mean anything?

But the more immediate problem with your scenario is that it's no different from non-bank shots - you can't know whether or not you're making subconscious "adjustments", and simple logic suggests that you must be.

pj
chgo
 
... Many want to add feel and what not when trying CTE.
Because that's the only way to work from a discrete set of instructions to a continuum of outcomes.

As to your diamond reference, not sure what you are getting at there. CTE doesn't use the diamonds for anything.
Unless the system spells out which alignment/pivot to select when the balls are in some particular position (the diamonds are just a way of quantifying that), then the table ratio should be irrelevant. That is, with a different ratio, as Duckie indicated, you could always select another alignment/pivot.

Jim
 
As far as the perpetual motion machine, it doesn't exist. Nice if it did. Point was, with it, as with CTE, if you add something to it that wasn't there, it isn't what is described. Many want to add feel and what not when trying CTE. It won't work that way. It has to be followed by the steps.



As to your diamond reference, not sure what you are getting at there. CTE doesn't use the diamonds for anything.


But there are some who are perpetual posting machines. Lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Back
Top