Is The Miscue Limit Speed Sensitive?

[Patrick Johnson]

Ball/ball friction is greater at slower speed - how about tip/ball friction? Can you hit the CB a little farther from center with a slow stroke vs. a fast one?

Just wondering.

pj
chgo

 

[Cornerman]

Ball/ball friction is greater at slower speed - how about tip/ball friction? Can you hit the CB a little farther from center with a slow stroke vs. a fast one?

Just wondering.

pj
chgo

I think we talked about this a few years ago. Not really about tip/ball friction, but more about the placement of the tip (offset). The higher the speed, the more the tip rides around the cueball during contact. So, it would follow that at some offset, you'll be in danger off miscuing at higher speeds. Additionally, the softer tip with have slightly more contact time (bending, compression and decompression), so a case can be made that at high speeds, and near critical offsets, the softer tip has a higher chance at miscuing as you get larger offsets.

I'm handwaving, but I think the range of friction for chalked tips wouldn't give significant reduction in friction due to speed until ultra high speeds, not in realm of pool strokes. But, that's a guess based on the high friction that chalk has.

 

[Jal]

An addendum to Patrick's question: when a miscue occurs, what happens? Is leather torn off, or is the failure at the chalk-leather interface, within the chalk, or at the chalk-ball interface?

Jim

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Ball/ball friction is greater at slower speed - how about tip/ball friction? Can you hit the CB a little farther from center with a slow stroke vs. a fast one?

Just wondering.

pj
chgo

Good question. My guess is that yes you can. I've messed around with different chalks. I remember the first time I felt the softer Kamui chalk (the 0.98). That stuff feels like glue lol. I bet a soft stroke with that chalk would increase the miscue limit.

No data to back that up. Except that I did try a bunch of extreme draw shots with the Kamui chalk and was successful more often than with Masters. This has nothing to do with your question lol, just thought I'd throw that out there.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

An addendum to Patrick's question: when a miscue occurs, what happens? Is leather torn off, or is the failure at the chalk-leather interface, within the chalk, or at the chalk-ball interface?

Jim

Man, that is some cool thinking there. What a great question. I've never considered this at all.

KMRUNOUT

 

[mjantti]

An addendum to Patrick's question: when a miscue occurs, what happens? Is leather torn off, or is the failure at the chalk-leather interface, within the chalk, or at the chalk-ball interface?

Jim

My instinct says it's the chalk-tip interface, because the miscue leaves the contact point on the tip shiny and without chalk. It seems the chalk peels off the tip when miscuing.

 

[Jal]

My instinct says it's the chalk-tip interface, because the miscue leaves the contact point on the tip shiny and without chalk. It seems the chalk peels off the tip when miscuing.

Yes, that points at the chalk-tip, but it doesn't eliminate the leather-leather giving way either, does it?

Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

An addendum to Patrick's question: when a miscue occurs, what happens? Is leather torn off, or is the failure at the chalk-leather interface, within the chalk, or at the chalk-ball interface?

Jim

Man, that is some cool thinking there. What a great question. I've never considered this at all.

KMRUNOUT

Totally cool thinking - Jim makes a habit of that.

My instinct says it's the chalk-tip interface, because the miscue leaves the contact point on the tip shiny and without chalk. It seems the chalk peels off the tip when miscuing.

And a miscue usually leaves chalk on the ball, so I'm leaning this way too.

Yes, that points at the chalk-tip, but it doesn't eliminate the leather-leather giving way either, does it?

Jim

Wouldn't there be some visible evidence of that? I see the bald spot a lot (did I just out my stroke?), but no evidence of leather being removed.

Thanks for all the replies so far - I'm learning already.

pj
chgo

 

[Jal]

Thanks for the generous remarks KMRUNOUT and Patrick. (Is it my birthday again?...nobody tells me these things.)

...
And a miscue usually leaves chalk on the ball, so I'm leaning this way too.


Wouldn't there be some visible evidence of that? I see the bald spot a lot (did I just out my stroke?), but no evidence of leather being removed.

I guess I'm being ultra-picayune, but just wondering if the chalk just slips along the surface of the leather, or removes some of it as in a polishing operation? A bit of both? (Besides being picayune, it's also moot because I don't think either case, if we knew which applied, would answer your question.)

Jim

 

[KissedOut]

Thanks for the generous remarks KMRUNOUT and Patrick. (Is it my birthday again?...nobody tells me these things.)

I guess I'm being ultra-picayune, but just wondering if the chalk just slips along the surface of the leather, or removes some of it as in a polishing operation? A bit of both? (Besides being picayune, it's also moot because I don't think either case, if we knew which applied, would answer your question.)

Jim

My guess, and it is just a guess, is that if a CSI lab examined the residue of a miscue on an otherwise pristine cue call they might well find traces of leather amidst a sea of chalk. But it might take that gas chromatograph thingy to detect it.

 

[Cornerman]

my guess, and it is just a guess, is that if a csi lab examined the residue of a miscue on an otherwise pristine cue call they might well find traces of leather amidst a sea of chalk. But it might take that gas chromatograph thingy to detect it.

More like an FTIR .


-----------------

 

[Corwyn_8]

An addendum to Patrick's question: when a miscue occurs, what happens? Is leather torn off, or is the failure at the chalk-leather interface, within the chalk, or at the chalk-ball interface?

Jim

I can't imagine that the shear strength is lower anywhere than it is between the particles of chalk.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Nick B]

My GUESS is that the curve of the graph is quite flat except at very slowest speeds where you don't get any compression and thus less grip

Sent from my SM-T330NU using Tapatalk

 

[336Robin]

My guess is.....

Ball/ball friction is greater at slower speed - how about tip/ball friction? Can you hit the CB a little farther from center with a slow stroke vs. a fast one?

Just wondering.

pj
chgo

I think it would be easy to think that you could surpass the the miscue limit with a slow stroke but if you did you had better have a lot of chalk on the tip. I know you've trapped balls between the cue and the cloth before.

I would think that there ought to be a measurement for the quality of the miscue as the miscue limit is likely there for a reason and most strokes beyond it would be highly likely to miscue.

I don't see any reason to play the cue ball beyond the miscue limit but hey that's me.

 

[JB Cases]

An addendum to Patrick's question: when a miscue occurs, what happens? Is leather torn off, or is the failure at the chalk-leather interface, within the chalk, or at the chalk-ball interface?

Jim

Sometimes it is. I can tell you that with phenolic tips sometimes a miscue would actually break the tip and sometimes cause it to pop off. For regular leather tips what mostly seems to happens is an instant glazing but once in a while I have seen tips damaged.

 

[Jal]

I can't imagine that the shear strength is lower anywhere than it is between the particles of chalk.

But wouldn't you see a layer of chalk remaining on the tip if the failure occurred within the chalk? (Despite my including that as a possibility, the appearance of the tip after a miscue seems to point more toward a failure at the chalk-tip interface, or within the leather itself, as in the grinding away of surface asperities, imo.)

Unfortunately, none of this addresses Patrick's question, which I highly doubt can be answered without direct testing.

Jim

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Unfortunately, none of this addresses Patrick's question, which I highly doubt can be answered without direct testing.

I'm not so sure it's worth the trouble of actual careful testing - the difference is likely to be very small if it exists, and not worth the risk of trying to achieve.

pj
chgo