Consistency of APA Ratings

[lorider]

I think it would be great if the APA won/loss records were dumped into Fargo rate somehow. I strongly doubt that would ever happen as the APA would lose what separates them from their competitors. And since they are the big dog in amateur pool why would they do that?

I wish the BCA had a presence in my area. I would join in a heartbeat.

I am going to begin this post with the disclaimer I have nothing against bcapl and have the utmost respect for its owner.

I am going to state some facts on apa vs bcapl and then would like your opinion on why you would prefer to dump apa and join bcapl in a heartbeat


Apa lo's are prohibited from playing on teams in play offs or higher....nothing to stop an unscrupulous bcapl lo from ensuring the team he plays on makes it to the nationals their is no incentive cod an apa lo to play favorites lil they have been accused of on here many times. The bcapl lo that was caught adding an ineligible player to his national team was given a slap on the wrist ...in my opinion

Apa lo have strict guidelines on how to run their franchises. Bcapl lo's are free to run their areas any way they want to .

Bcapl 8 ball is a point based game ...at the local level ....just like apa 9 ball which people are quick to bash saying it ain't real 9 ball.


Yes apa scorekeeping is a pain in the as but its in place to prevent sand bagging. Bcapl score keeping has nothing in place to prevent sand bagging. Numerous times when I played bcapl I saw guys run racks for 3 matches then all of a sudden bang balls for 2 matches winning 34or 38 to 18 and keeping their handicap low. Si ce their is nothing in place on the score sheet to lee record of such shenanigans it goes on with out any thing being done about it.

After reading these facts you wanna tell me why you are so quick to jump ship ?

 

[Corwyn_8]

Apologies to Pogmothoin for the name misspelling.

Thank you kindly.

 

[robsnotes4u]

I am going to begin this post with the disclaimer I have nothing against bcapl and have the utmost respect for its owner.



I am going to state some facts on apa vs bcapl and then would like your opinion on why you would prefer to dump apa and join bcapl in a heartbeat





Apa lo's are prohibited from playing on teams in play offs or higher....nothing to stop an unscrupulous bcapl lo from ensuring the team he plays on makes it to the nationals their is no incentive cod an apa lo to play favorites lil they have been accused of on here many times. The bcapl lo that was caught adding an ineligible player to his national team was given a slap on the wrist ...in my opinion



Apa lo have strict guidelines on how to run their franchises. Bcapl lo's are free to run their areas any way they want to .



Bcapl 8 ball is a point based game ...at the local level ....just like apa 9 ball which people are quick to bash saying it ain't real 9 ball.





Yes apa scorekeeping is a pain in the as but its in place to prevent sand bagging. Bcapl score keeping has nothing in place to prevent sand bagging. Numerous times when I played bcapl I saw guys run racks for 3 matches then all of a sudden bang balls for 2 matches winning 34or 38 to 18 and keeping their handicap low. Si ce their is nothing in place on the score sheet to lee record of such shenanigans it goes on with out any thing being done about it.



After reading these facts you wanna tell me why you are so quick to jump ship ?

Sounds like the inconsistency of my play, and I don't sandbag. Sometimes I play like a hero others times not, my Fargo Rate takes that into account


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[lorider]

Sounds like the inconsistency of my play, and I don't sandbag. Sometimes I play like a hero others times not, my Fargo Rate takes that into account


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I have read about cargo rating on here several times so I am a little familiar with it .

One question though. How does it factor in wins on a point based game like apa 9 ball or bcapl 8 ball ?

I understand a win is a win but how does it factor in your points earned I. Bcapl vs your opponents points.? Lets say you win 3 out of 5 matches. There is a big difference between winning 38-18 vs 38-30 .

Apa score keeping takes into how much of a Margin you beat your opponent by . That helps determine your true playing level ...does fargo rating rating take into account the same win margin.?

 

[robsnotes4u]

I have read about cargo rating on here several times so I am a little familiar with it .



One question though. How does it factor in wins on a point based game like apa 9 ball or bcapl 8 ball ?



I understand a win is a win but how does it factor in your points earned I. Bcapl vs your opponents points.? Lets say you win 3 out of 5 matches. There is a big difference between winning 38-18 vs 38-30 .



Apa score keeping takes into how much of a Margin you beat your opponent by . That helps determine your true playing level ...does fargo rating rating take into account the same win margin.?

In our BCA leagues we use a point a ball and Fargo Rate uses the wins/losses from those games to calculate the rating.

So Fargo Rate would give you the same rating in your example but the league ranking may be different. I would say they are two separate things

The only league I am familiar with so I can not answer you question on APA


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[lorider]

In our BCA leagues we use a point a ball and Fargo Rate uses the wins/losses from those games to calculate the rating.

So Fargo Rate would give you the same rating in your example but the league ranking may be different. I would say they are two separate things

The only league I am familiar with so I can not answer you question on APA


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I guess you misunderstood me. I have no question about apa. Having played bcapl I am quite familiar with their point based scoring system also.

My question is ....knowing Fargo rating more or less is based on your win percentage.....like the example I used earlier...3 out if 5 matches . That does not necessarily reflect your true playing ability.

As I said earlier. Winning by a score of 38-18 in 5 matches is a whole lot different than winning 3 out of 5 matches by a score of 38-30. I dont see how using just wins and losses like the Fargo rating does reflects your true playing ability.

As for your local rating.....i think its a joke that you can make 3 break and runs in a row then bang balls around for 2 matches until your opponent finally sinks resulting in you winning 38-18 and still co considered a c player. Seen it too many times when I played bcapl

 

[robsnotes4u]

I guess you misunderstood me. I have no question about apa. Having played bcapl I am quite familiar with their point based scoring system also.



My question is ....knowing Fargo rating more or less is based on your win percentage.....like the example I used earlier...3 out if 5 matches . That does not necessarily reflect your true playing ability.



As I said earlier. Winning by a score of 38-18 in 5 matches is a whole lot different than winning 3 out of 5 matches by a score of 38-30. I dont see how using just wins and losses like the Fargo rating does reflects your true playing ability.



As for your local rating.....i think its a joke that you can make 3 break and runs in a row then bang balls around for 2 matches until your opponent finally sinks resulting in you winning 38-18 and still co considered a c player. Seen it too many times when I played bcapl

I can only answer for me and not Fargo Rate.

Maybe a good reason to not score by points and only wins. Here is a great example. In our league, 4 man teams, you play each person twice each breaking once

Last week I broke and ran against a 619 (Fargo rate) and I am a 526. He broke dry and I ran out. So I won 16-0. He is better than me by a lot. The score doesn't represent his ability.

I ran three tables total last week and have done a very few times. I have had many more weeks where I never ran a table. Was I sandbagging? No. I can say this in our league everyone is trying to increase their rating.

Maybe we're are different.

People have egos and will have excuses when the lose to justify those loses.

My opinion and not the opinion of Fargo Rate


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[BasementDweller]

It's simple -- the more data you collect the less it matters what happened during any individual rack. Just keeping track of the score is more than enough data to accurately reflect your skill level.

These guys know what they are doing.

 

[mikepage]

[...]
I am going to state some facts on apa vs bcapl and then would like your opinion on why you would prefer to dump apa and join bcapl in a heartbeat

After reading these facts you wanna tell me why you are so quick to jump ship ?

To be fair to the original poster, he said he enjoys playing APA and actually said nothing about dumping or jumping ship or anything like that.

What he did say is if BCAPL was offered in his area he would join in a heartbeat, and he cited the use of Fargo Ratings as a motivation. It is gratifying to me that we've been hearing that more and more.

Another issue that got mentioned by a few people is whether an 8-ball game scored with a point system is too altered or tainted to be *good* FargoRate data. This is a valid concern and one we have not only thought a lot about but also studied quite a bit.

Here is the issue. FargoRate cares only whether you won or lost the game and who your opponent is. The underlying assumption is your goal is to win the game and you have no conflicting motivations. Scoring 8-ball with points to the loser for balls made can provide some conflicting motivations. One such scenario is when you pocket a key ball rather than save it for a breakout because the point wins a round for your team. You won the round, but you are less likely to win the game. We have analyzed tens of thousands of games played by the same players in such a league setting and in 8-ball tournament settings, and we have found there is no measurable difference. This is probably a combination of this affecting only a small fraction of the games and also the fact that one time you may "take one for the team" and another time you may benefit from an opponent "taking one for the team." In other words it largely comes out in the wash.

So we feel comfortable using these data.

 

[lorider]

To be fair to the original poster, he said he enjoys playing APA and actually said nothing about dumping or jumping ship or anything like that.

What he did say is if BCAPL was offered in his area he would join in a heartbeat, and he cited the use of Fargo Ratings as a motivation. It is gratifying to me that we've been hearing that more and more.

Another issue that got mentioned by a few people is whether an 8-ball game scored with a point system is too altered or tainted to be *good* FargoRate data. This is a valid concern and one we have not only thought a lot about but also studied quite a bit.

Here is the issue. FargoRate cares only whether you won or lost the game and who your opponent is. The underlying assumption is your goal is to win the game and you have no conflicting motivations. Scoring 8-ball with points to the loser for balls made can provide some conflicting motivations. One such scenario is when you pocket a key ball rather than save it for a breakout because the point wins a round for your team. You won the round, but you are less likely to win the game. We have analyzed tens of thousands of games played by the same players in such a league setting and in 8-ball tournament settings, and we have found there is no measurable difference. This is probably a combination of this affecting only a small fraction of the games and also the fact that one time you may "take one for the team" and another time you may benefit from an opponent "taking one for the team." In other words it largely comes out in the wash.

So we feel comfortable using these data.

Thanks cod responding and clarifying your you rating system.

I will have fo admit that I am still not sold on the strictly won/ Loss method of handicapping though.

I was just raised to a 6 in Pa 9 ball. Mainly due to a few lop sided wins even though I have a losing record so far this session ..


Under your system I would not be raised ....hey maybe that ain't a bad system after all....j/k lol

 

[pogmothoin]

I am going to begin this post with the disclaimer I have nothing against bcapl and have the utmost respect for its owner.

I am going to state some facts on apa vs bcapl and then would like your opinion on why you would prefer to dump apa and join bcapl in a heartbeat


Apa lo's are prohibited from playing on teams in play offs or higher....nothing to stop an unscrupulous bcapl lo from ensuring the team he plays on makes it to the nationals their is no incentive cod an apa lo to play favorites lil they have been accused of on here many times. The bcapl lo that was caught adding an ineligible player to his national team was given a slap on the wrist ...in my opinion

Apa lo have strict guidelines on how to run their franchises. Bcapl lo's are free to run their areas any way they want to .

Bcapl 8 ball is a point based game ...at the local level ....just like apa 9 ball which people are quick to bash saying it ain't real 9 ball.


Yes apa scorekeeping is a pain in the as but its in place to prevent sand bagging. Bcapl score keeping has nothing in place to prevent sand bagging. Numerous times when I played bcapl I saw guys run racks for 3 matches then all of a sudden bang balls for 2 matches winning 34or 38 to 18 and keeping their handicap low. Si ce their is nothing in place on the score sheet to lee record of such shenanigans it goes on with out any thing being done about it.

After reading these facts you wanna tell me why you are so quick to jump ship ?

I am not unhappy playing in the APA and have no desire to "jump ship". I think our L/O is one who listens to the players and tries to ensure fair play. No problems at all in that regard.

I've been playing pool competitively for about three years. I've made what I consider to be good progress overall, could be better and there's still lots to learn though. With that in mind, yes, I do enjoy the challenge of playing in a different arena. As a matter of fact, in addition to the 3 nights I play APA , I play in a NAPA league and even a few local tournaments. I was on a TAP team but quit because I didn't like the crappy tables where we played.

I just like playing pool I guess. So yes, I would try the BCA if that was an option. If I didn't like it, I'd drop that too. I do like the concept of FARGO RATE but perhaps, it too, will prove to be flawed. Or perhaps not. Time will tell.

Hope we cleared that up.

 

[pogmothoin]

Apa score keeping takes into how much of a Margin you beat your opponent by . That helps determine your true playing level ...does fargo rating rating take into account the same win margin.?

Does the APA use margin of victory or loss as a factor in determining your rating or are you speculating? Because I lose too much to support my number. I'm asking for a recount, haha.

I thought it was basically a result of balls made in innings played less defensive shots. The exact tipping point for each SL is certainly a mystery to me.

 

[robsnotes4u]

I am not unhappy playing in the APA and have no desire to "jump ship". I think our L/O is one who listens to the players and tries to ensure fair play. No problems at all in that regard.

I've been playing pool competitively for about three years. I've made what I consider to be good progress overall, could be better and there's still lots to learn though. With that in mind, yes, I do enjoy the challenge of playing in a different arena. As a matter of fact, in addition to the 3 nights I play APA , I play in a NAPA league and even a few local tournaments. I was on a TAP team but quit because I didn't like the crappy tables where we played.

I just like playing pool I guess. So yes, I would try the BCA if that was an option. If I didn't like it, I'd drop that too. I do like the concept of FARGO RATE but perhaps, it too, will prove to be flawed. Or perhaps not. Time will tell.

Hope we cleared that up.

It doesn't matter what system you pay under, as long as you are playing the game. A great game.


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[Skippy27]

Does the APA use margin of victory or loss as a factor in determining your rating or are you speculating? Because I lose too much to support my number. I'm asking for a recount, haha.

I thought it was basically a result of balls made in innings played less defensive shots. The exact tipping point for each SL is certainly a mystery to me.

9 ball uses a 10 point rack system. 1 for 1-8 and 2 for the 9. Dead balls, 9 on snap and innings are tracked.

8 ball does not use a point system for scoring. Innings, safeties, BnR, 8 on break, early 8, 8 wrong pocket and scratch on 8 are all recorded.

 

[justadub]

Does the APA use margin of victory or loss as a factor in determining your rating or are you speculating? Because I lose too much to support my number. I'm asking for a recount, haha.

I thought it was basically a result of balls made in innings played less defensive shots. The exact tipping point for each SL is certainly a mystery to me.

There are supposedly a number of different elements that factor into determining your skill level. The formula was published years ago, from a court case of all things, and of course supposedly changed some since that got leaked out.

Wins, number of innings it took minus defensive shots, strength of opponent are supposedly the primary factors.

Regardless, its not just win-loss.

 

[mikepage]

[...]
I will have fo admit that I am still not sold on the strictly won/ Loss method of handicapping though.

I was just raised to a 6 in Pa 9 ball. Mainly due to a few lop sided wins even though I have a losing record so far this session ..


Under your system I would not be raised[...]

I can't tell from your information. There are some misconceptions out there about game win/loss as the basic measure.

First, people confuse it with "I played 100 games this month and won 60 so I am at 60%." That is a win-loss record. No we don't use that at all. You can win 90% of your games and have your Fargo Rating go down or 10% of your games and have your Fargo Rating go up. Our game win/loss is at the level of an individual game against a specific opponent.

Suppose I play a single game of 8-ball against Robsnotes4u. Who is going to win?

Well there are a number of things that may contribute

--how well we rack
--how well be break
--how well we pocket balls
--how well we control the cueball
--the quality of our patterns
--the quality of our two-way shots/risk management
--the quality of our safeties
--the quality of our decision making
--whether we are prone to distraction.

You can imagine collecting a lot of data on Rob and me that gives us scores on each of these measures. Then you can imagine weighting each of these factors for their overall importance in determining the game winner and constructing a complex rating function to comparing Rob to me to find each of our chance of winning the game.

But wait!

If we look at the 300 or so games Rob and I have played in the past, you will see that I have won about 200 and he has won about 100. So basically we are given the final answer. We know all the things I listed--and some I didn't list-- contribute to this. And this final answer knows that. Moreover, this final answer knows what we don't know: the proper weighting of each factor.

So when we say I am 100 points above Rob and have a 2/3 chance of winning an individual game against him, it would be wrong to say this doesn't consider how we bank or cut balls or jump or kick or our ability to run out or play safe. It absolutely considers all of these things in the right relative mix.

If in a misguided attempt to "improve" Fargo Ratings we added an accustats score for the game or a measure of the number of innings or anything like that, we would be just double counting these factors with weights we just have to guess.

It would be like taking the Vegas spread on a football game and then adding in your own knowledge that a quarterback performs well outside the pocket. You can be pretty sure your knowledge is already baked into the Vegas odds.

The notion that GAME WIN/LOSS + OTHER FACTORS is somehow better than just GAME WIN/LOSS for predicting game win/loss is just nonsense. The exception to this is unusual current information.

For my game with Rob, perhaps you know I just heard my dog died or you know I am drunk.

Or you saw the quarterback limping into the stadium on game day.

Outside of that, the best way to predict game win/loss is...well...game win/loss.

 

[lorider]

I can't tell from your information. There are some misconceptions out there about game win/loss as the basic measure.

First, people confuse it with "I played 100 games this month and won 60 so I am at 60%." That is a win-loss record. No we don't use that at all. You can win 90% of your games and have your Fargo Rating go down or 10% of your games and have your Fargo Rating go up. Our game win/loss is at the level of an individual game against a specific opponent.

Suppose I play a single game of 8-ball against Robsnotes4u. Who is going to win?

Well there are a number of things that may contribute

--how well we rack
--how well be break
--how well we pocket balls
--how well we control the cueball
--the quality of our patterns
--the quality of our two-way shots/risk management
--the quality of our safeties
--the quality of our decision making
--whether we are prone to distraction.

You can imagine collecting a lot of data on Rob and me that gives us scores on each of these measures. Then you can imagine weighting each of these factors for their overall importance in determining the game winner and constructing a complex rating function to comparing Rob to me to find each of our chance of winning the game.

But wait!

If we look at the 300 or so games Rob and I have played in the past, you will see that I have won about 200 and he has won about 100. So basically we are given the final answer. We know all the things I listed--and some I didn't list-- contribute to this. And this final answer knows that. Moreover, this final answer knows what we don't know: the proper weighting of each factor.

So when we say I am 100 points above Rob and have a 2/3 chance of winning an individual game against him, it would be wrong to say this doesn't consider how we bank or cut balls or jump or kick or our ability to run out or play safe. It absolutely considers all of these things in the right relative mix.

If in a misguided attempt to "improve" Fargo Ratings we added an accustats score for the game or a measure of the number of innings or anything like that, we would be just double counting these factors with weights we just have to guess.

It would be like taking the Vegas spread on a football game and then adding in your own knowledge that a quarterback performs well outside the pocket. You can be pretty sure your knowledge is already baked into the Vegas odds.

The notion that GAME WIN/LOSS + OTHER FACTORS is somehow better than just GAME WIN/LOSS for predicting game win/loss is just nonsense. The exception to this is unusual current information.

For my game with Rob, perhaps you know I just heard my dog died or you know I am drunk.

Or you saw the quarterback limping into the stadium on game day.

Outside of that, the best way to predict game win/loss is...well...game win/loss.

It seems you collect info much lil Napa league does.

They have am option on their website that tells you how you would possibly match up against any other opponent in their system.


It's based on quite a few things....just a small sample ......break and runs....frequency of 8 or 9 on the breaks.....even who shoots best under a full moon or what season of the year lol. Plus a whole lot more stats fo compare you against them

 

[lorider]

One other thing mike. As far as stats for reasons you lost lil your dog dying or the quarter back limping....i got one for you.

First the back story. I have a friend who is a 5 in 9 ball. I have played him at less 20 times over the last 5 years and he has never beat me. Not when we were both 4's. Never when we were both 5's and now I am a 6 .

Well he finally beat me Las weekend. The loss is no big deal . It's how bad I lost that is a surprise. After never beating me in over 20 matches he beats me 19-1. If you are not familiar with apa's sliding scale in 9 ball it means he held me fo less than 10 points. Another surprise was it only went 8 innings.

Now their is a reason for Su h a lol sided loss to a guy who has never beat me. I doubt if any one could ever guess the reason .even the lo could not figure it out and he was there the whole time and knows us both well.

After I fold him the reason he said it made a lot of sense.

Any one want to take a guess.? I will post the reason tonight.

 

[skip100]

The notion that GAME WIN/LOSS + OTHER FACTORS is somehow better than just GAME WIN/LOSS for predicting game win/loss is just nonsense. The exception to this is unusual current information.

If the other factors are predictive then of course including the other factors will help. Your ratings would only be improved if you also had information for number of innings per game, number of balls made, number of safeties, number of missed shots, number of break & runs, and other objective inputs that reflect on a player's ability.

The problem is that recording and verifying those other factors can be difficult or impossible.

APA obviously has issues with accurate recording of information, but it's just as obvious that their ratings would be even worse if innings were not incorporated into their data.

 

[Celophanewrap]

One other thing mike. As far as stats for reasons you lost lil your dog dying or the quarter back limping....i got one for you.

First the back story. I have a friend who is a 5 in 9 ball. I have played him at less 20 times over the last 5 years and he has never beat me. Not when we were both 4's. Never when we were both 5's and now I am a 6 .

Well he finally beat me Las weekend. The loss is no big deal . It's how bad I lost that is a surprise. After never beating me in over 20 matches he beats me 19-1. If you are not familiar with apa's sliding scale in 9 ball it means he held me fo less than 10 points. Another surprise was it only went 8 innings.

Now their is a reason for Su h a lol sided loss to a guy who has never beat me. I doubt if any one could ever guess the reason .even the lo could not figure it out and he was there the whole time and knows us both well.

After I fold him the reason he said it made a lot of sense.

Any one want to take a guess.? I will post the reason tonight.

Lemme see...
He had a good night and you had a bad one?
I know you'd never just let him win...
He won the lag and just never really gave you a clear shot at anything?
The scorekeepers were doing other things?
He was finally using the force?
He cheated?

...any of those sound right?