Need a rules interpratation please

[tucson9ball]

On a side not....when I played VNEA, we had a saying on our team if somebody forgot to mark the pocket for the 8 ball. We would pipe up and say "(shooters name) or anybody else want a beer"? This saved our butts on a few occasions.

It's hard to call coaching when all the person is asking is "does anybody want a beer"? Tough one to prove anyhoo......

 

[poolfool1957]

On a side not....when I played VNEA, we had a saying on our team if somebody forgot to mark the pocket for the 8 ball. We would pipe up and say "(shooters name) or anybody else want a beer"? This saved our butts on a few occasions.

It's hard to call coaching when all the person is asking is "does anybody want a beer"? Tough one to prove anyhoo......

Sounds like a savvy veteran move.......could lead to a severe downward spiral though....the more missed patches the more beers which leads to yet more missed patches which leads to........:grin-square:

 

[jasonlaus]

You are right, I completely missed the team part and fixed my post. Thanks for pointing that out without being such a schmuck.

I am guessing you would be one that has such sportsmanship you would call the foul.

Its been a barrage of stupid here lately. Don't bring my sportsmanship into it, you don't know me at all.

All I had to go by is your post, which if you had read the FIRST 3 WORDS you probably(hope this isnt a stretch)wouldn't have posted that.:thumbup:

Anyway sorry for assuming you are like the rest of the posters who don't read before they post.

 

[Skippy27]

It's not nit picking, its a clear violation of the rules done with intent and knowledge of breaking a rule. Should be loss of game IMHO.
Jason

IMHO it was a good move on the teammate and one supported by the rules.

Unfortunately he was wrong, but it was a good move if the teammate really thought the guy was going to lose by shooting in the 8. Stop him and give the BIH instead of allowing him to shoot into a loss. Let the guy try to beat him on the table after getting BIH. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[jasonlaus]

IMHO it was a good move on the teammate and one supported by the rules.

Unfortunately he was wrong, but it was a good move if the teammate really thought the guy was going to lose by shooting in the 8. Stop him and give the BIH instead of allowing him to shoot into a loss. Let the guy try to beat him on the table after getting BIH. Nothing wrong with that.

IMHO I feel if its a game win/lose situation it should be loss of game for the coaching - it was done intentionally.

You call my sportsmansip into question? This along with sharking, touching a ball and not calling it, and any other foul you can think of are all things I would NEVER do.
OTOH, I do question your sportsmanship, with comments like this
Jason

Edit to add: I would be furious with my teammate and probably quit playing with them - they have no respect for the rules, the other player or myself.
I would also ask my opponent what they want to do - forfeit, ball in hand, or continue shooting. Whatever they decided would be fine with me. I might possible concede the game no matter what they say

 

[Skippy27]

IMHO I feel if its a game win/lose situation it should be loss of game for the coaching - it was done intentionally.

Well the coaching section is under H. Fouls and not under F. Loss of game so take it how you will.

Being that coaching is not allowed at anytime couldn't it always be considered poor sportsmanship and intentional? It could also alter the win/lose of a game at anytime so if they wanted that drastic of a penalty, then it would be in the Loss of Game section.

I didn't see any special call outs for intentional fouls that require more drastic action to be taken. Raking the table or interfering with a moving 8 ball or cue ball in a game losing situation is one thing (neither of which is addressed in the 8 ball rules that I saw), but when no balls are in motion and no shoot has been taken?

Sportsmanship is subjective. I would consider it to be poor sportsmanship to allow your opponent to shoot at the wrong ball. I would also consider it poor sportsmanship to call a foul on your opponent for something that someone else did. I prefer to try to win by using my skills. In this situation being the teammate was wrong I would have ignored it and laughed it off with them as I made fun of them. If the teammate was right I would have pointed out the infraction and told my opponent that if they change what they were doing, then I will consider it an illegal coach (as I have done before). Either way in this case I end up with BIH and go use my skills so how they want to play it from there is on them.

 

[jburkm002]

I always hate taking the game away from the players because of someone elses dumb actions. fI the player only had the 8 and called it. I would not call a foul. If he had another ball on the table and was shooting the 8. I would call a foul. I would tell the captain, no matter what. Next time its a foul. No coaching means no coaching. I would not take the game away from the player.

 

[KRJ]

So if you're quick enough to take the advice and shoot before your opponent realizes what's going on and calls a foul, it's perfectly OK by those rules? Doesn't unsportsmanlike conduct come into play?

Not what I said. But he saw him coach him, he had more than enough time to call it. If he choses not to than yes, after the shot I would think it's too late.... on this particular type of foul.

 

[nine_ball6970]

If this is an individual tournament, then no it is not a coach. Unsolicited advice from a spectator, even if they approach the table is not something you can control. Especially when that advice turns out to be about something that the spectator had no idea what they were talking about.

If they were actually down and going to shoot the wrong ball and someone said something and then they change balls they are shooting at, that is clearly a coach as you can't control unsolicited advice, but you can control if you take it, thus causing that unsolicited advice to become a coach.

Best thing to do if someone starts talking to you is to tell them to be quite as you are shooting and it can be misconstrued as a coach.

Team tournament and your captain is in control. If they mess up, it is on them. From a sportsmanship perspective, I would not hold the individual responsible for someone else making a mistake.

From http://vnea.com/8-ball-rules.aspx
H6. Coaching is a foul. Any member of a team called for coaching will result in a foul on the team member shooting.

I guess I am the minority but I don't feel like this is coaching. Nobody is telling him where to make a ball or giving advice on how to shoot a shot.

Heck I would even tell my opponent if he was about to shoot the wrong ball. I wouldn't have a problem with his team telling him either. They can also tell him if he forgot to mark his pocket. I am sorry but I have no interest in winning a game because my opponent was going to shoot a ball out of sequence or didn't mark the pocket where everyone knew he was shooting anyway.

I feel like unsportsmanlike conduct shouldn't even be brought up in this case but that is just me.

 

[Skippy27]

I guess I am the minority but I don't feel like this is coaching. Nobody is telling him where to make a ball or giving advice on how to shoot a shot.

Heck I would even tell my opponent if he was about to shoot the wrong ball. I wouldn't have a problem with his team telling him either. They can also tell him if he forgot to mark his pocket. I am sorry but I have no interest in winning a game because my opponent was going to shoot a ball out of sequence or didn't mark the pocket where everyone knew he was shooting anyway.

I feel like unsportsmanlike conduct shouldn't even be brought up in this case but that is just me.

I am with you there but didn't want to get into the semantics of what a coach is or isn't as that is just yet another arguing point. Many feel that if you say anything at all to them then it is a coach. The sneaky guy above that mentioned asking if anyone wanted a beer is a case in point to support them. I however would agree that you have to be directing them in their action whether it be how to hit a ball, where to hit a ball or strategy in general. Making sure they mark their pocket and are hitting the right ball is petty stuff.

Even in the APA, if a player is down in a shoot and you speak to them it is considered a coach as you have just altered the situation. Again, if my opponent is down in a shot and their captain says "Hey you want a coach!" but the person ignores them or says "No, walk away." and shoots, I would not consider that a coach as they received no advice about the shoot. Now if the player changed his shoot in any way I would declare it a coach and tell the captain he has a minute to finish or in this case he fouled if he doesn't go with the original plan.

You could say that even telling a player to take their time, be smart or encouraging them positively when it is their turn at the table is a coach as you are guiding them on their mental state and/or preshot routine/selection. Petty yes, but some are just that petty and feel they need every edge they can to win.

 

[Mickey Qualls]

On a side not....when I played VNEA, we had a saying on our team if somebody forgot to mark the pocket for the 8 ball. We would pipe up and say "(shooters name) or anybody else want a beer"? This saved our butts on a few occasions.

It's hard to call coaching when all the person is asking is "does anybody want a beer"? Tough one to prove anyhoo......

Same kind of thing in my local league. A teammate and I came up with it during one of our "What would you do here ?" sessions.

If one of our lesser players is facing a tough decision (try a difficult shot vs playing a lock up safety), we've got a couple of go to phrases. "Chalk up", "C'mon, smooth strokes, baby", "Stay loose", or some other such phrase to make our player take a second look (and potentially see what I/we see).

"Take your time, ____, it's all you, baby", or "You got this, ____, keep your head in the game" are a couple of the go to phrases if our shooting teammate hasn't attempted to look at or set up for that 7th ball (before the 8).

 

[jasonlaus]

I will ALWAYS tell my opponent if he is shooting the wrong ball. Where this is different, is that coaching is not allowed period. I think alot of people posting on these threads would cheat their own mother and feel good about it.
Rules or no rules I do the right thing.

I never said I'd call a foul on him, I only stated that I think it should be a loss of game. I would prefer(if the offending player) hadn't played yet, to give him a 1 game loss.....that would be priceless.


In my book right is right regardless of the rules and alot of you should be getting very little sleep at night.......or day for you nightshifters

 

[lorider]

I will ALWAYS tell my opponent if he is shooting the wrong ball. Where this is different, is that coaching is not allowed period. I think alot of people posting on these threads would cheat their own mother and feel good about it.
Rules or no rules I do the right thing.

I never said I'd call a foul on him, I only stated that I think it should be a loss of game. I would prefer(if the offending player) hadn't played yet, to give him a 1 game loss.....that would be priceless.


In my book right is right regardless of the rules and alot of you should be getting very little sleep at night.......or day for you nightshifters

Your post is spot on. Crap like above is exactly why no talking at all is allowed in tri cups or higher in spa

I once caught a guy sending signals to a teammate in a money league.when i got through raising hell with him his captain told him to sit his ass down and apologized to our whole team

Signals ...code words...etc is nothing but blatant cheating in my book

 

[poolfool1957]

Hoping a VENA ref with lots of experience will address this.

 

[lorider]

Hoping a VENA ref with lots of experience will address this.

Be interested to hear myself.

People complain about so called rampant sandbagging in spa....talk about pot calling kettle black

 

[erhino41]

This is why I don't play league anymore, looking for petty reasons to steal a game. Whenever I see a team call a foul for not marking a pocket and then dancing around and celebrating like idiots because they stole I game, I want to throw up, where is the honor in that? As an opponent I would've told my opponent of he still had a ball on the table, and I would not call a foul for a coach in the instance. The player at the table did nothing wrong I wouldn't penalize him. If the player was shooting the wrong ball and changed his mind after the "coach" I would just give them a warning. This is a gentleman's game and one should act as such.

 

[lorider]

This is why I don't play league anymore, looking for petty reasons to steal a game. Whenever I see a team call a foul for not marking a pocket and then dancing around and celebrating like idiots because they stole I game, I want to throw up, where is the honor in that? As an opponent I would've told my opponent of he still had a ball on the table, and I would not call a foul for a coach in the instance. The player at the table did nothing wrong I wouldn't penalize him. If the player was shooting the wrong ball and changed his mind after the "coach" I would just give them a warning. This is a gentleman's game and one should act as such.

You can't just single out leagues for this problem. Fact of the matter is ...in any type of competitive event you will encounter people that will use use any and every method they can think of to gain an advantage.

 

[BRussell]

Another guy on his team approaches the table and stops the shooter mid-stroke.
He tells him he still has the 1 ball left.
The problem is that it isn't the 1 ball but rather the 9 ball that the team member mistook for the 1.
The shooter then shoots at the 8 ball and misses it.

I have no comment on the rules, but I just have to say this is completely hilarious. The shooter is in mid-stroke and a team mate jumps up in a no-coaching situation and tells him he still has a solid left? But it's not really a solid? And then he misses? That's some priceless stuff right there. :thumbup:

 

[erhino41]

I wasn't singling anybody out. You see this far more often in league play, imo. That's not to say leagues are bad they are just not for me. I had a captain that tried to call a foul for not marking an obvious eight ball on an opponent of mine. I told her i was not taking the game and racked for my opponent. I ended up losing the match on the hill. She was livid, I explained my position and she backed off. I don't play pool for the wins I play for the purity of the game itself. Wins are good but only if I feel I deserve them.i want no part of a win that I didn't earn. I am certainly not going to hide behind a ticky tacky interpretation of a rule to steal a win, it would mean nothing to me.

 

[erhino41]

Be interested to hear myself.

People complain about so called rampant sandbagging in spa....talk about pot calling kettle black

I know this is off topic, however, most complaints of sandbagging I have seen have been baseless. Usually someone who is butt hurt whining about losing. That's not to say it doesn't happen, i wouldn't say rampant. I may be wrong though, it's been awhile.