Can't believe that you support killing cows just to build a silly guitar.
Ivory ban
- Thread starter oneshotwiss
- Start date
Sorry, Maxx. I'm not biting.
In regards to the rosewood inquiry it's Brazilian rosewood (or any other rosewood from South America) that is banned. Indian rosewood is still being imported and used.
On that note, I just found out today that Tiger Cues will no longer be using cocobolo in their cues thanks to the Kalifornia PC police. I'm surpised Kalifornia still allows anything to still be made out of wood. Whatever cues they have in stock with cocobolo will be their last. To the best of my knowledge this ban is not effective in any other states. I ordered the last of the their Classic Series today. It was still in the lathe being finished up. I didn't ask about their carom cue stock. Of course, whatever cues the many dealers have are still available until their stock runs out.
On that note, I just found out today that Tiger Cues will no longer be using cocobolo in their cues thanks to the Kalifornia PC police. I'm surpised Kalifornia still allows anything to still be made out of wood. Whatever cues they have in stock with cocobolo will be their last. To the best of my knowledge this ban is not effective in any other states. I ordered the last of the their Classic Series today. It was still in the lathe being finished up. I didn't ask about their carom cue stock. Of course, whatever cues the many dealers have are still available until their stock runs out.
Isn't meth illegal in CA? Seems to be a lot of money in that there.
Anything made into forbidden fruit becomes more valuable...it's just an undeniable fact of human nature. That and everybody in the country denying other's ability to have free will.
No offense, but who's to say the millions of chickens kept in cages to become McNuggets are any less beautiful than a pachyderm? Political correctness and group think are ruining this country. That and the meth!
Anything made into forbidden fruit becomes more valuable...it's just an undeniable fact of human nature. That and everybody in the country denying other's ability to have free will.
No offense, but who's to say the millions of chickens kept in cages to become McNuggets are any less beautiful than a pachyderm? Political correctness and group think are ruining this country. That and the meth!
California banned Naphtha, of all things. Another shot for guitar builders, and woodworkers in general. I hadn't heard about cocobolo, though. Personally, I tend to avoid it because the oil irritates my skin, but it's pretty. Glues OK too, despite reports to the contrary. You must have a freshly planed surface for the best bond, so a lot of guys that don't/can't work by hand have trouble.
Indian Rosewood (which is a real rosewood, unlike a lot of "rosewoods") has been our standard for acoustics rosewood sides/backs/fingerboards/bridges for a while now. Sounds great. Part of what made Braz. so nice is how nicely it bends and works. It is really a pleasure to work with. Indian is not as nice for the craftsman.
Ivory
I love ivory. The way it cuts, the feel of the hit, the look ,etc. I also have a solution. Elephant farms. We should protect them on game preserves and let them live happy lives. We could breed the heck out of them. Fill those preserves up with them and get their numbers back up. The only thing we ask in return is to be able to use there hide and tusks as building materials after they die a natural death. Seems like a good solution to me. Can we eat them? If so - farm them aggressively like cattle. Feed the hungry and use their tusks and hide. Anyone that wants to blow up on me and this thread should take off their leather shoes, jackets, knife sheaths, etc. And their pool cue tips! Is a cow's life worth less than an elephant's? Cow lives matter!
I love ivory. The way it cuts, the feel of the hit, the look ,etc. I also have a solution. Elephant farms. We should protect them on game preserves and let them live happy lives. We could breed the heck out of them. Fill those preserves up with them and get their numbers back up. The only thing we ask in return is to be able to use there hide and tusks as building materials after they die a natural death. Seems like a good solution to me. Can we eat them? If so - farm them aggressively like cattle. Feed the hungry and use their tusks and hide. Anyone that wants to blow up on me and this thread should take off their leather shoes, jackets, knife sheaths, etc. And their pool cue tips! Is a cow's life worth less than an elephant's? Cow lives matter!
Nuts4tascarellas...........I applaud your thinking and opinions about pool cues & ivory.
dom_poppa
Banned
I don't really have an opinion on this except.....
-Who cares its just ivory. Why do you want it on your cue?
At the same time...I can seriously say...
-Ivory is beautiful on a pool cue when you can see, to me at least, a creamy texture.
Sort of sad that we no longer see it in cues but at the same time it shouldn't matter.
-Who cares its just ivory. Why do you want it on your cue?
At the same time...I can seriously say...
-Ivory is beautiful on a pool cue when you can see, to me at least, a creamy texture.
Sort of sad that we no longer see it in cues but at the same time it shouldn't matter.
When an elephant is legally harvested on the reserves in Africa that allow it, a single elephant feeds a local village for weeks.
Using the contract date is a silly idea. Then cue dealers or whoever could just do a contract before the ban starts for 100 cues with ivory in them to be delivered 5 per year for the next 20 years as an example. You mentioned a deposit should also make a difference, but under what logic? Fine, I will put a one dollar deposit down on each of those 100 cues to be delivered over the next 20 years.
Prepaying in full shouldn't even allow the transactions to occur once it is illegal otherwise the rich guy will just prepay in full for the 100 ivory cues that are to be delivered over the course of the next 20 years which thereby effectively circumvents the law and its purpose. The only thing that should matter and the only thing that makes the law have the desired effect is whether or not the transaction is fully completed (meaning the item is paid for in full AND delivered to the buyer) prior to it becoming illegal.
Part of what you are proposing does some harm, and part of what you are proposing does some good. On net though the harm far outweighs the good. If you allow a legal market, the harvesting of them illegally will continue at a great pace, causing far more loss of elephants than can be made up for with the tax dollars. This is an unfortunate reality, but a reality none the less. There unfortunately just is no solution other than a ban of all ivory sales worldwide, and it may even ultimately end up requiring a world wide ban on the private possession of the ivory too although that remains to be seen. A ban in the trade of ivory sucks, but is necessary, and sucks far less than the loss of the elephant on earth.
You are right about the aberrant and close minded people who ignore facts, and because of that you fail to realize that you and the rest of the people on your side of the argument are the ones who are doing just that.
Your "but the elephants I'm using were killed way before the ban" argument completely ignores the fact that (as john coloccia already pointed out) as long as there is a legal market for ivory there will be an illegal one. And yes there will probably be an illegal market for ivory once the legal market end too, but it will be minuscule in comparison.
In the end this point doesn't really matter and is immaterial even if you are right. Who cares, as the survival of the elephant as a species is far more important than a few guys who get the perceived benefit of a slightly better hitting pool cue.
I happen to think your opinion is wrong though. There are man made materials that are superior, and if blind folded you couldn't tell the difference anyway (even though you will swear you could, but you would be swearing wrong). But again, even if you were right it doesn't matter as having elephants on the earth is far more important than you having a slightly better hitting pool cue.
We'll see. It is, or will be, breaking a law and you certainly cannot claim ignorance of that law.
Reason for my reply. Because.....as you can see, it always turns into something other than intended.
If you didn't want to hear anybody else's opinion then you shouldn't have given yours by saying the ivory ban "blows". And you actually even specifically asked for the opinions of others when you prefaced your ivory ban blows sentiment with "is it just me". And now you want to turn around and chastise people for giving their opinion? Seriously? Really? You can't be being serious right now.
If you didn't want opinions on the ban, then you shouldn't have given yours or asked people for theirs. You should have simply said "After the California ivory ban goes into effect what do you suppose the California cue maker's material of choice will be to replace ivory? Will they turn to phenolic, juma, elforyn?" But I don't think the problem is that you didn't want opinions on the ban. You wanted them, you just were expecting to get agreement and confirmation of your own opinion and when it turned out that you instead got mostly disagreement it was only then that you didn't want to hear it.
Elephants are beautiful, intelligent, highly social creatures. They belong to extended families that they care for, even mourning the deaths of their family members. Their tusks, if I am not mistaken, are modified hairs made of protein just like your finger and toenails are modified hairs. Oh yeah, these majestic creatures are endangered. Let's leave them alone. We'll find a replacement for ivory. Guaranteed.
I'll bite. Can you show me where john coloccia said he was opposed to the killing of animals, or to the use of animal parts either one? I sure can't find it anywhere.
You are either ignoring or just didn't think of it and realize that the cost of ivory is not the only factor controlling how many elephants get killed. The size of the ivory market (the amount of ivory that is needed) is what controls how many elephants get killed. And as with anything else, the higher the price of ivory, the less of it that will be needed. You are only considering how desirable it will be to fill that market need if the price is high, and you are right in that it would probably desirable to do so, but the market would be much smaller so less elephants would have to be killed. What if ivory went to a billion dollars a pound? Will there still be some sultan somewhere that wants a pound of it? Probably so. Will the desire be really strong for someone to fill that market need if ivory were so valuable? Damn right, and that is the only thing that you have considered. But how many elephants will they have to kill to fill that market need? Just one.
Along with the higher prices throw in the chance for hefty fines and costly defense and possible jail sentences for buying ivory and then there are even less people wanting to buy it which further decreases how much ivory is needed which further decreases how many elephants have to be killed to fill that market need.
Chickens aren't in danger of disappearing from the earth. Elephants are. Again, I have yet to see anyone say there opposition to ivory use is because they are against killing animals or using animal parts. This is about saving something from extinction.
I generally agree with this statement but that isn't what is happening here. An animal, one which most people find to be particularly beautiful at that, is becoming extinct in the wild. People want to prevent that from happening. Even if someone doesn't personally give a crap about elephants or care if they disappeared or not, surely they could understand how the majority might and accept it even if they don't happen to personally care themselves.
Thank you. I have zero problem with killing and using animals for our own benefit...meat, skins and even bones for my silly guitar.
The fact is that the ivory WILL disappear one way or another. That's not my doing or some legislature's doing. The only question is does it disappear responsibly so that maybe my grandchildren can have access to a sustainable supply one day, or do we let nature take it's course and wipe it out forever?
Anyhow, I suspect that our domestic stock of ivory will become worthless in the future, just as tortoise shell has become essentially worthless.
The only thing that will slow the poaching of elephants is when less ivory is needed. The smaller the market for ivory, the less elephants it takes to meet that need. It is simple supply and demand. What will make the ivory market smaller where less ivory is needed? A number of things can do it. High prices. The possibility of expensive legal fees for buying or selling. The possibility of large fines for buying and selling. The possibility of going to jail for buying or selling.
So how does pumping tons of ivory into the market, such as these government stockpiles, help to make the market smaller (which we know is the only thing that will save the elephant)? It doesn't. It won't in any way make the ivory market smaller. In fact if anything it really only makes the market larger, exposing even more people to it and thereby creating even more people that want it. It damn sure doesn't make it smaller though.
But doesn't pumping all this supply into the market take care of the demand so that the demand is now met and no more elephants have to be killed? Nope. There is not a finite demand on ivory, meaning that there isn't only a certain amount of ivory that is needed and then no more. The demand for ivory is near limitless. Demand for ivory can only be meaningfully lowered by the cost going up, or the threat of prison sentence for buying or selling it, etc.
But for the sake of argument lets say that these stockpiles would take care of the demand for a while, even though they wouldn't. How long do you think that would last for? That ivory would just be used up relatively quickly and it wouldn't be long before you were right back in the exact same boat again with all the elephants being killed to meet the demand. Nothing has changed because you didn't do anything to make the market smaller.
The only way to save the elephant is lessen the demand for ivory, to make the ivory market need very small. And the only way to make the ivory market need very small is to make ivory as unappealing as possible to as many people as possible. And the way to make ivory unappealing to the most people is to make buying or selling it illegal with serious consequences etc.
You will not save the elephant by banning ivory sales in the Western Hemisphere. The majority of sales and usage occurs in Asian countries.
The problem is the competition between man and beast. People that live in elephant populated areas desire to expand their areas of crop production. Elephants get in the way, so they are exterminated. Also, civil wars in Afrca have decimated people and animals.
In January, 2016, The San Antonio Express News carried an article that offers the best hope for elephant preservation. A non-profit group pledged 1.2 million dollars a year for twenty years to help restore elephant populations at Gorongosa National Park in Mozambique. European governments and the U.S. Agency for International Development as well as other donors have joined in the project. Animal population counts are climbing but still lower than pre-war counts.
As these nations develop, the elephant will face a bleak future, just as the buffalo did in the U.S. The solution, just like that of the buffalo, still remains the same.Land preserves, provided by those who truly care about the elephant and put their money where their mouth is, are the solution
You can ban anything you want and the desire for it remains. Look how successful we have been with drugs in America. Ivory also, will still be bought and sold during a ban.
I have said for years that the elephant can be saved through a rigorous breeding program and a series of parks or privately owned land reserves. It will take money and dedication not talk or bans if you want to save the elephant.
Perhaps AZB should set up a fund that would be used to help save the elephant. I wager more cuemakers would contribute than would the "banners". Mankind has always used animal, birds, reptiles, fish, etc. to further his way of life. We eat them, use their body parts(bones) for various things and this will not change. So, breed the elephant back into numbers that will continue to be sustainable and generations in the future will have elephants, also. No more passenger pigeon situations.
The solution is always the same-money and dedication.
The problem is the competition between man and beast. People that live in elephant populated areas desire to expand their areas of crop production. Elephants get in the way, so they are exterminated. Also, civil wars in Afrca have decimated people and animals.
In January, 2016, The San Antonio Express News carried an article that offers the best hope for elephant preservation. A non-profit group pledged 1.2 million dollars a year for twenty years to help restore elephant populations at Gorongosa National Park in Mozambique. European governments and the U.S. Agency for International Development as well as other donors have joined in the project. Animal population counts are climbing but still lower than pre-war counts.
As these nations develop, the elephant will face a bleak future, just as the buffalo did in the U.S. The solution, just like that of the buffalo, still remains the same.Land preserves, provided by those who truly care about the elephant and put their money where their mouth is, are the solution
You can ban anything you want and the desire for it remains. Look how successful we have been with drugs in America. Ivory also, will still be bought and sold during a ban.
I have said for years that the elephant can be saved through a rigorous breeding program and a series of parks or privately owned land reserves. It will take money and dedication not talk or bans if you want to save the elephant.
Perhaps AZB should set up a fund that would be used to help save the elephant. I wager more cuemakers would contribute than would the "banners". Mankind has always used animal, birds, reptiles, fish, etc. to further his way of life. We eat them, use their body parts(bones) for various things and this will not change. So, breed the elephant back into numbers that will continue to be sustainable and generations in the future will have elephants, also. No more passenger pigeon situations.
The solution is always the same-money and dedication.