handicaps from different regions

[Celophanewrap]

Yes a 6 will shoot less applied innings than a 5 on average.

It really doesn't matter if as a 6 you win 5 games in 75 innings. When your score is input you'll only get credit for roughly 2.5 to 3 innings per game, or something like that. So lets' say 15 innings, just as an example. Then you also played 4 defensive shots in your 75 but really 15 innings. The system now sees 11 innings.
Instead of 15 per game like you worked so hard to get (5 games - 75 innings) the system doesn't see you as a bad S/L 2 but as a borderline 6/7 at just over 2 innings per game - 5 games won - 11 innings.
See? - Applied innings

 

[Cornerman]

"Applied Innings" = Part of the Equalizer System that ensures you don't go down but doesn't inhibit your ability to go up.

Allegedly used as an anti-sandbagging tool to prevent people with a high winning percentage from running up innings to reduce their true S/L. Unfortunately it also makes it harder for honest players to play at their true S/L by decreasing their innings using a formula based on winning percentage. So if you're a 5 who wins a match in 40 innings the ES will compute Applied Innings to replace your score at somewhere between 3.1 and 4 depending on your winning percentage without regard to actual innings.

At least that's my understanding.

You most certainly understand correctly.

 

[Cornerman]

I thought it was interesting. So basically what I learned from it was that, yes, if you have been an APA member in another APA league, you will retain the same player number. But your stats are kept locally by your league operator. Remember, the APA leagues are run by individual franchisee's.

I'll go completely off tangent, but then again... this is the internet...

The player number changes if you change to a different LO. I think each has their own starting number based on zip code or whatever differentiation. So, I used to have the number 0130XXXXX when I was in Mass, but when I went to Ohio, it changed to 453XXXXXX or whatever and none of my matches were carried through other than a lowest attainable rating.

Freddie <~~~ XXX

 

[Celophanewrap]

I thought it was interesting. So basically what I learned from it was that, yes, if you have been an APA member in another APA league, you will retain the same player number. But your stats are kept locally by your league operator. Remember, the APA leagues are run by individual franchisee's.

That's not entirely true. Here we have 2 LO's in the metropolitan area, I have played in both areas and I have 2 different player numbers. Not just the first 3 digits but the whole number is different. always been curious about that....

 

[lorider]

By this answer, this tells me you don't know what "applied innings" means.

A player doesn't shoot "applied innings." This is another one of those "basics of the Equalizer Handicapping System."

Thanks for the link you sent me cornerman....it was very insightful and thought provoking reading.

After dwelling on this subject it also seems possible to have variations of level of play among skill levels in the same region.

Let me explain why I think that and lets use me for an example. Ever so cw I have been In apa I was usually the highest rated player on my team . And as a result I usually faced the higher rated players on opposing teams.

I
Under the old 8 ball scoring system I always came in 1st in top gun at the end of each session .it was not because I w as much better than other 4's and 5's ..it was because while they were getting 4 or 5 points when they beat other 4's amd 5's . I was getting 6 or 7 points when j won .

It's pretty much common knowledge that the more you play better players the better you become. Also I was the only 4 In Masters when I joined it.

So while other 4's and 5's were banging balls around when playing each other I was picking up things from playing better players...especially safety play.

Now there are several 5's that always have higher win Percentage than me every session but yet I know they are not at the same level as I am . Now its embarrassing to admit this next fact but I believe it plays into the equation also....i have a bad habit of playing to the level of my opponent. Now believe it or not there is a good benefit of this bad habit. When I play higher level of opponents I can usually keep up with them in a match. But by the same token I have played 2's and played lousy and lost....embarrassing as heck but its a fact.

What made me come to this realization's was what a team mate told me on a new team I started this last session.he is a 7...yep I finally have a high level player so I dont have to take on all the big guns every week.

At playoffs the other team threw 1st....a darn good 6..although I am captain I deferred all matching up to my 7 ..actually it winds up a mutual decision after talking it over.

I want to throw player 5 b ....we have three 5's . My 7 wants to throw me... 5c is outa the running as he is the worst one..my 7 tells me I am our bed 5 since I play smarter a d play better safeties...actually the word saftey js not in the other two 5's vocabulary.

I think player 5 b has better cue ball control than me but the more I thought about it mh 7 was right. I have a much stronger overall game.

I was hesitant to play this 6 because he makes me his rack boy in masters every tome I face him. I best I have ever done was a 7-3 loss..

So I put my game face on and did my playoff routine which is get dead serious and sit w from my team so I will have no distractions .I won

After the match was over I took the score sheet so I could keep score of the next.match.. Could not believe I was down 33-12 at one point and came back to beat him 38-42..

Bottom line is my 7 made mw realize even though we have three 5's on the team we are completely different in various ways with each of us strong in some parts of the game and weak in others.

I always chalked up our various levels of play to good days and bad days.

Player 5 b is killer against 3's and 4"s he had not had a mat h worse than 16-4 win against 4's or lower. Player 5c and myself re d to play down to their level

But neither o e of them can play up to higher level players like I can . I always kind of thought that k. The back of my head but did not want to dwell on it much and get a ego..


Glad my 7 saw that k.e too..and he just noined our team this session

 

[pogmothoin]

I'll go completely off tangent, but then again... this is the internet...

The player number changes if you change to a different LO. I think each has their own starting number based on zip code or whatever differentiation. So, I used to have the number 0130XXXXX when I was in Mass, but when I went to Ohio, it changed to 453XXXXXX or whatever and none of my matches were carried through other than a lowest attainable rating.

Freddie <~~~ XXX

On my team I have two players who were originally from other area's. My LO uses their original number from the other area. I guess that's another thing that is left up to the LO. Not a big deal one or the other to me.

 

[Skippy27]

On my team I have two players who were originally from other area's. My LO uses their original number from the other area. I guess that's another thing that is left up to the LO. Not a big deal one or the other to me.

The first few numbers are their area numbers.

My sister and her fiance just went to another area and play in 2 now. They use the same number for them in the other league but instead of a 0 at the beginning of both of their player number part, it is now a 9. So lets say she uses 01234 in our area, it is now 91234 in the other. I just logged into her APA account and actually on her team 4 of the 8 players came from another area and every single one of them now have a 9 in front of their number.

 

[lorider]

I thought I would bump.this thread after pi king up 2 new players from other region again.

I picked up a 6/6 from north Carolina and a girl who is a 3/4 from Rhode island.

Like the last 6 I picked up from michigan he dont impress me much. He lost 8 ball tonight by 5-2 vs another 6 with one of his wins due fo an early 8 by his opponent.

As for the girl....kinda hard to figure her out due to she wound up playing the same s/l 2 in both 8 and 9. My player won 9 ball 31-18 I. A 31-19 Dave..my player was up 8-2 after the 1st rack but it took 9 innings just for that rack the whole match took 28 innings. Not too impressive for a 4.

She did a little better in 8 ball against the same 2 winning 2-0.in 10innings but she is a 3 in 8 ball

An update about the players who this thread originated about. The 6 moved to Michigan last session and did not impress me at all.because he lost to players I beat and I am just a 5.

The 5 from north Carolina ....well.i could write a book about him.

Any way it seems players from other areas are not as strong as players from here yet players from here dont seem to do well at nationals.

 

[Skippy27]

A 3 playing a 2 in 8 ball is a 3-2 race so she would of had to win 3 matches in 10 innings. Which is pretty impressive for a 3.

 

[lorider]

A 3 playing a 2 in 8 ball is a 3-2 race so she would of had to win 3 matches in 10 innings. Which is pretty impressive for a 3.

My bad for not making it clear.....thats what I get for.typing whenever I am dead tired.:embarrassed2:

My players is a 3/4. She played the same player twice who is a 3/2. It was a 2/2 race in 8 ball which went 10 innings.

Other than going to 2 state regionals and one nationals I dont have any experience with players from other regions except for these 4 who moved to my area and have or are currently play on my team.

I never saw anyone at state regionals that was out of line and only one player at nationals that I thought was under handicapped.

Maybe its just my luck but every player I have had on my team who moved from another area is under handicapped compared to players in my area....with the exception of the aforementioned girl who is a 3 in 8 ball ..which I agree with and I believe over handicapped as a 4 in 9 ball..

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I would strongly disagree with this as the quality of your opponent has no factor into the formula they use to obtain ratings.

If you are suggesting they use a bell curve for an area, which I believe you are, then you are completely wrong and my post above after returning from Vegas validates that.

Skippy sorry to say but you are incorrect. Your win % is a factor in your skill level in APA 8 ball. I'm not going to go into the formulas and such, but just trust me I have the information of *exactly* how your APA 8 ball skill level is obtained.

Suppose you play in a particular area in which all the 7's in your division are pro players. This is of course highly unlikely, but surely you can see how it becomes *more* likely when you play APA in a very strong area. So let's say you are a 7, and play the pro level 7's on the other team. You might actually be a decent shortstop level player, but you are going to record a lot of losses on your record. When your best 10 scores of your last 20 matches become losses, your skill level is likely to drop. Even though you might be a dominant 7 in some areas, in this particular area you are not, and may even drop to a 6.

My first match of 8 ball singles in Vegas last year was against Brian Parks. He won hill hill in 1 inning total. We both broke and ran a rack, I made 1 8 on the break and he made 2. It was actually a pretty epic match. But the point is that if I kept playing people like him, eventually I would likely have more losses than wins. I may stay a 7 if I at least win some of the racks in the matches, and do so in low innings. But it is entirely possibly that I could even drop to a 6. In my area, on the other hand, I can usually count the number of *racks* I lose all season. There are not that many strong 7's in my division, so I am a superstar lol.

The basic point is that because win % dictates the score you get when you shoot worse than your average, competing in a super strong area could lower your handicap unless you are the strongest.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Skippy27]

I don't have first hand knowledge of the system, but I did hear first hand from a person that works in the office that loses do not matter. Your last 20 winning games (not matches) are the single biggest factor in your rating. The example was that you can lose every match, but maintain 20 games won from those matches with a less than 1 average inning and you will remain a 7.

LOs can't move you down. They can only lock your current rating or move you up. When the locks removed, the formula takes over.

Granted they provided simplicity in all of it so you probably have another factor in it as I know at one point their system was made public. It was just stresses that the that 20 games are a very big factor and it accounts for quick improvement or adjustments for time away.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I don't have first hand knowledge of the system, but I did hear first hand from a person that works in the office that loses do not matter. Your last 20 winning games (not matches) are the single biggest factor in your rating. The example was that you can lose every match, but maintain 20 games won from those matches with a less than 1 average inning and you will remain a 7.

LOs can't move you down. They can only lock your current rating or move you up. When the locks removed, the formula takes over.

Granted they provided simplicity in all of it so you probably have another factor in it as I know at one point their system was made public. It was just stresses that the that 20 games are a very big factor and it accounts for quick improvement or adjustments for time away.

Lock? You still think that, eh?
Tell me:
1) What makes you think an LO can 'lock' your S/L?

2) Why would they want to?

 

[APA Operator]

Lock? You still think that, eh?
Tell me:
1) What makes you think an LO can 'lock' your S/L?

2) Why would they want to?

I think he means "set a minimum" so you can't go down. It should be pretty obvious why some players should not be allowed to go down in skill level. One example might be a "decent shortstop" who never plays anyone except pro-level 7's...

 

[pogmothoin]

Lock? You still think that, eh?
Tell me:
1) What makes you think an LO can 'lock' your S/L?

2) Why would they want to?

My understanding is that a L/O can lock you at a higher S/L but can not lower it beyond what the Equalizer System says it should be.

As to a reason why a L/O may do that I would imagine if there is sufficient evidence that a player is sandbagging or otherwise playing outside the rules that would seem to be a scenario where the L/O may lock someone at the higher S/L.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I think he means "set a minimum" so you can't go down. It should be pretty obvious why some players should not be allowed to go down in skill level. One example might be a "decent shortstop" who never plays anyone except pro-level 7's...

My understanding is that a L/O can lock you at a higher S/L but can not lower it beyond what the Equalizer System says it should be.

As to a reason why a L/O may do that I would imagine if there is sufficient evidence that a player is sandbagging or otherwise playing outside the rules that would seem to be a scenario where the L/O may lock someone at the higher S/L.

My understanding is that once you've played at a higher level tournament (HLT) you'll never be able to fall below the S/L you left that tournament at.
In normal weekly play you can only ever fall one skill level below your highest, assuming that you've never played in an HLT, ie - you're an S/L 6, even
the poorest of play over an extended time will never allow you fall below an S/L 5. The exception would be if you were to acquire"special circumstances"
such as a medical limitation that would effect your ability to play.

If a player is intentionally playing below his true ability or is a known player of known skill and experience they can then be assigned a S/L. Then my
understanding is that they can be raised or "go up" from there as their play would dictate.

That sound right?

 

[Nyeborn]

HLTs are everything from local playoffs and singles qualifiers to Vegas. You can be locked (unable to go down but still able to go up as determined by formula) by LO's and are locked if you shoot in Vegas at nationals. If your team goes to nationals but you do not shoot, you do not get locked automatically.

 

[Skippy27]

I think he means "set a minimum" so you can't go down. It should be pretty obvious why some players should not be allowed to go down in skill level. One example might be a "decent shortstop" who never plays anyone except pro-level 7's...

Not sure to be honest. I was simply told they can manually lock a player or move a player up, but they can never manually move a player down and that they have unlocked players and let the natural system take its course, which moved a couple players up after the lock was released from them. Apparently a previous LO had locked them for some reason and the players werent happy when they suddenly got bumped.

Keep in mind that the individuals telling me this may very well be providing just select details and purposely leaving others out to avoid providing too much detail.

 

[Pete]

I might be crazy and just a dreamer but I think that if the "Handi Capping System" really worked then it wouldn't matter where you were from (taking sandbagging out of the equation).

If you are a 3 ball runner who doesn't safety on their own consistently should be one SL than a 4 ball runner.

If everything is noted correctly, I think it would be much more even in all regions...

 

[lorider]

I might be crazy and just a dreamer but I think that if the "Handi Capping System" really worked then it wouldn't matter where you were from (taking sandbagging out of the equation).

If you are a 3 ball runner who doesn't safety on their own consistently should be one SL than a 4 ball runner.

If everything is noted correctly, I think it would be much more even in all regions...

That's my opinion also and its what I found to be true the few state regionals and the one national event I have played in so far.

With that said its just surprising that the 4 people that have moved here from other regions in the last 6 months have been weaker than players here with the same handicap. Maybe its just my bad luck that I am the one that wind up with weak players from other areas rather than strong ones lol.