That was not my intent, but you're right, sorry.
Looking at it on the bright, at least we finally agree on something.
That's actually two things we agree on
:sorry:
to hell with call shots...anyone else gone back to "slop" and loving it?
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That was not my intent, but you're right, sorry.
Looking at it on the bright, at least we finally agree on something.
That's actually two things we agree on
:sorry:
Depends a little on your definition of call shot. In snooker, you never have to call the pocket but you do have to call the ball when you are on a colour after potting a red. In the grand old days before the "modern" rules you also had to call the ball on your second colour after potting the yellow, green, brown and blue - getting on for 2/3 of the shots during the rotation part of the game,
In pool there are arguments for and against - the "two way" shot being the classic argument for "slop" or non-call shot games. I like to call it the "I'm going for one or the other" shot rather than "two way" shot and vote for call shot all the way. "Two way shot" to me means something different - playing so that if your intended shot doesn't come off then you leave yourself in a not-too-bad position - somewhere between playing aggressively and defensively. "Slop" arguably gives stronger players an even bigger "edge" over weaker players in the long or even non-instantaneous run but call shot makes the game better and purer and helps it keep its integrity.
I've played two way shots since I was teenager because I saw the older gentleman from whom I stole my game doing it. One can play two way shots in call shot too, one just needs to know how to do it.
If you look at the tone & tenure of this thread on each side with an objective eye, I think you will see that one side, your side, is basically telling everyone that plays call shot or would suggest playing call shot is an idiot & they are trying to defend them not playing call shot.
Then on the other side no one is telling anyone else how THEY should play the game, but just that call shot takes a more skilled player to play it well & it takes more luck out of the equation, but we can & will play anyway, as long as we know how that is going in.
All Best Wishes for ALL.
PS Who wants to see someone shoot a slight cut into a corner pocket that they called & then slightly under cut it so it goes back & forth two rails into the same pocket. How is that a display of skill? I think the issue with this thread is many are talking about different skill levels. I tried to differentiate such in an earlier post & to also explain that I, we, are not talking about the weasels that say one did not call 2 rails when a ball hits a rail near the pocket. That is NOT the kind of call shot game of which I, & I think others are speaking.
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Not everyone is a great player. Pool is played by players with a whole range of skill levels.
In that rotation league, the only reason calling the shot matters is because the incoming player can take your miss or return the table to you. THAT is what kills the two-way shot. In a regular call-pocket game, that doesn't matter because your opponent has to take the shot you leave him (if legal).
Or am I missing something here?
Jeff Livingston
Or am I missing something here?
Jeff Livingston
You are making the point that I did way back & just again repeated in the post script of my last post.
The OP was not talking about Mosconi playing Greenleaf.
Be on a table in a pool hall & have some one walk up & ask to play a game of 8 ball for $5 or $10 a game or straight pool to 50 for 50 cents or $1 a point... or throw down quarters on a table that you & a friend have been on for 20 or 30 minutes.
But also, ask that pro that SP99 referenced that lost a match due to a luck shot & what if it was for a US OPEN or a WORLD Championship.
Crap happens, unless there are rules to try to prevent the crap from counting.
ALL Best Wishes for ALL.
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I'm a hack. And I rarely crap something in.
"Good" players shouldn't have it happen much at all
There is a long fairly straight shot diagonally across the table with the a 4" pocket slightly, 1/8 or 1/4, blocked by another ball at about the 1/2 way point. This takes more skill than a wide open pocket.
One shoots the shot with the intention of pocketing the ball without hitting the blocking ball. The reason is because hitting the blocking ball will most certainly result in a missed shot.
The shot is shot & the ball skims the blocking ball but still goes into the pocket.
Is anyone here 'proud' of that shot & thinks that they deserve to continue shooting?
All Best Wishes for ALL.
One shoots the shot with the intention of pocketing the ball without hitting the blocking ball. The reason is because hitting the blocking ball will most certainly result in a missed shot.
The shot is shot & the ball skims the blocking ball but still goes into the pocket.
Is anyone here 'proud' of that shot & thinks that they deserve to continue shooting?
All Best Wishes for ALL.
A really great player will sh$t a ball in in an important match on a rare occasion. Check out last year's Ko Pin Yi vs. SVB and the 1:09 mark. Obviously, it happens. What is great about allowing slop is that it provides additional uncertainty and excitment. And when it happens to great players in important matches, it makes for much fodder for discussion thereafter. In other words, it adds interest to the game!
I've come full circle on slop rules. For a good long while, I preferred call shot. Now I say let slop count. It all evens out in the long run anyway and it makes the game more exciting when it happens.
Let's let foul balls count in Baseball.
And if a players step out of bounds but shoots the basket ball before you take a second step out of bounds, then the shot counts. Fouls are okay as long as the other guy does not get completely knocked down or injured.
You can take your move back in chess anytime up until your opponent actually make his move.
You can volley the ball in table tennis.
All of these thing make the games more 'interesting'.
And if a players step out of bounds but shoots the basket ball before you take a second step out of bounds, then the shot counts. Fouls are okay as long as the other guy does not get completely knocked down or injured.
You can take your move back in chess anytime up until your opponent actually make his move.
You can volley the ball in table tennis.
All of these thing make the games more 'interesting'.
I would be just fine with shooting again. As you said kissing the ball didn't help, so what's the big deal. Sure I was LUCKY the kiss didn't cause a miss. If it did then you would have the luck. You can't remove all luck. Adding rules with the intent of removing all luck is the source of all the hideous bar room rules. Like losing you turn because the OB didn't drop clean but touched the cushion on its way in.
Utopia can't be forced to happen, cuz it can never happen, in pool or life in general.
Jeff Livingston
I have stated a few time now that THAT is NOT the type of call shot rules I, & others are talking about.
I think that THAT misunderstanding is at the root of the (dis) consternation within this thread
All Best Wishes for ALL.
PS Please remind me to never play you for money if you are truly okay taking credit for a shot that you did NOT execute as you intended.
I'll bet all the tea in China that you've never gambled
Brushing a stationary ball that is obstructing a portion of the pocket is no different than brushing the rail on the other side of same pocket. How could one be ok and the other not?
I get your point but the shot example was an example of the shooter being unlucky. Shane was shooting safe but the darn ball caromed and dropped. In this case the opponent was lucky. So for the purist no slop advocates: since the ball wasn't called then the opponent should have to shoot out of the safety. Shane goes to his chair.
Just wondering, is making the 9 on the break ever considered slop?
You're Wrong...now pay up, sucker.
But what's your point. I'd like slop if I won money that way. Well about losing money that way?
I have gambled but not for anything big & I don't like it.
I can't really win.
If I do win... then I'm a hustler & I just pissed someone off in real life...
& If I don't win... then I'm out of some of MY own money.
If you're playing the game for money... then you're playing it for the wrong reason... & that goes even for pro tournaments.
Now where is all my China Tee?
I would guess you're going to ask for how much have I gambled.
8 ball for $100 a game, but not that often because as I said, I don't like it.
I'd much rather play for drinks or for 5, 10 15, or 20 dollars total or table time. No hard feelings with that like when real money is involved.
Do you know what the word Amateur means from it's derivation?
Amateurs play for the Love of the Game... & many Pros are really Amateurs while others are not & are only about the money.
All Best Wishes for ALL.
PS I once watched 2 guys play one handed jack up for $1,000 per game.
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Sorry if I was unclear. The shot I am referring to is Ko's shot where he slopped in the 9 ball at 1:09:00 in the video.
The SVB shot you mentioned is still sloppy, just of the unlucky varient, lol.
I don't think that the slop issue matters much either way though.