APA Cost Analysis vs Pro Tour

[chefjeff]

(snip)
It's a shame that they are so completely interested in making themselves rich that they could care less about the sport falling apart from the top down.

I can't let this one go...

It's a false guilt trip you're putting on the APA. Their making money has NOTHING to do with the pros not.

It's still not your money to decide. It's not the pro's money. It's not pool's money. It is the APA's money, honestly earned.


Here's an idea....why don't you start your own league that makes millions of dollars and give those up to the professionals and see how it goes?


Jeff Livingston

 

[Kid Dynomite]

This is easy to remedy!

Start a petition and get the 250,000 members to lobby for it!

Talk is cheap! Get or start an online petition and lobby for the desired changes!

You start the thread complaining and whining VS. Taking action!

In fact, I am willing to be first to sign! But, more powerful if its Archer, Corey or Appleton!

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

It's not yours or his money.

Jeff Livingston

No sh*t. Maybe this will put things into perspective:

You join a pool tournament. 50 players, $50 entry...$2,500 in the pot. The pool hall decides they will pay out $89 and keep the rest.

That's the same ratio of payouts (3.55%) as the APA.

By your logic: "It's not your money, why should you care? The pool hall can charge whatever green fees they want."

If this was the case no one would ever play in the tournament. Somehow the APA tricked everyone into accepting these terrible terms. It's crazy to me...

 

[chefjeff]

The profit margin IS sickening! Anyone with half a brain can figure out a plan to pay all of their bills and still have 15-20 Million left. Look at all of the awards on their website: http://www.poolplayers.com/franchise/honors/

They only give you those awards if you're making insane amounts of money. Surely you can't argue that...

I think the profit margin is beautiful.

You do too, based on your desire to get your hands on it. If it sickens you, why would you want it to go for stuff you desire, if that would make you sick?


Jeff Livingston

 

[Celophanewrap]

No sh*t. Maybe this will put things into perspective:

You join a pool tournament. 50 players, $50 entry...$2,500 in the pot. The pool hall decides they will pay out $89 and keep the rest.

That's the same ratio of payouts (3.55%) as the APA.

By your logic: "It's not your money, why should you care? The pool hall can charge whatever green fees they want."

If this was the case no one would ever play in the tournament. Somehow the APA tricked everyone into accepting these terrible terms. It's crazy to me...

Well, if you didn't like the terms of the tournament payout my guess is that you wouldn't play.
That math you did, where you find that The APA makes 42 million (?), you don't somehow believe that's all profit, do you?

 

[chefjeff]

No sh*t. Maybe this will put things into perspective:

You join a pool tournament. 50 players, $50 entry...$2,500 in the pot. The pool hall decides they will pay out $89 and keep the rest.

That's the same ratio of payouts (3.55%) as the APA.

By your logic: "It's not your money, why should you care? The pool hall can charge whatever green fees they want."

If this was the case no one would ever play in the tournament. Somehow the APA tricked everyone into accepting these terrible terms. It's crazy to me...

That's not my logic. My logic is simple : It 's not your money to decide. Period.

If a pool hall pays very little back to its tourney players, I don't play in their tourneys. I don't play the APA. Simple logic. Period.

It's still not your money.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

I think the profit margin is beautiful.

You do too, based on your desire to get your hands on it. If it sickens you, why would you want it to go for stuff you desire, if that would make you sick?


Jeff Livingston

It's beautiful for the APA. It's ugly for the 250,000 members lol.

Since I never hear any complaints, I assume the APA members are content with their payouts. However, the pro pool world is in serious need of financing.

I'm just bringing to light the fact that rather complaining that there is no money in pool because it's not televised, we should starting looking at the leagues that are taking it all and not investing anything back into the sport.

As of recently, Corey Deuel has been trying to get support from the leagues and it seems that everyone is against it saying things like: "Why should a portion of my league fees go the pros? They haven't done anything for me." I don't get it. What does the APA do for you with that extra money?

For some reason everyone is against the leagues sponsoring or running any sort of pro tour with the millions of dollars they are collecting from the amateurs.

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

Well, if you didn't like the terms of the tournament payout my guess is that you wouldn't play.
That math you did, where you find that The APA makes 42 million (?), you don't somehow believe that's all profit, do you?

Hell no I don't think it's all profit. You don't think it's the cost of business do you??

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

That's not my logic. My logic is simple : It 's not your money to decide. Period.

If a pool hall pays very little back to its tourney players, I don't play in their tourneys. I don't play the APA. Simple logic. Period.

It's still not your money.


Jeff Livingston

Well then you are smart. However 250,000 suckers out there keep playing every week...

And I never said it was my money. Please find a quote where I said that...

 

[Shenanigans]

No sh*t. Maybe this will put things into perspective:

You join a pool tournament. 50 players, $50 entry...$2,500 in the pot. The pool hall decides they will pay out $89 and keep the rest.

That's the same ratio of payouts (3.55%) as the APA.

By your logic: "It's not your money, why should you care? The pool hall can charge whatever green fees they want."

If this was the case no one would ever play in the tournament. Somehow the APA tricked everyone into accepting these terrible terms. It's crazy to me...

You are not taking into account the prize / travel funds given to teams going to Vegas or monies won at a local level. For the team championship our area gives teams $5000 not including any money won at Tri Annuals another $1200 or in house prize fund. Roughly 1500 teams @ $6000 = $9 mil. This isn't including the singles championships, mvp tourneys, trophies, plaques and other misc. prizes.

When I go play in golf tournament for $200 I realize that they are going to take out money for the greens fees, cart fees and food. They might only put $30 per entry in the prize fund.

 

[chefjeff]

It's beautiful for the APA. It's ugly for the 250,000 members lol.

.

So ugly they keep playing.

Since I never hear any complaints, I assume the APA members are content with their payouts.

.

lol...if you've never heard complaints from APA members about the APA, you haven't been around long enough to form an opinion on it.

However, the pro pool world is in serious need of financing.
.

Needs are infinite; resources are finite. Smart companies, which APA obviously is, preserve their scare resources very very carefully so the spigot won't run dry. If they handed out their hard-earned profits for every need in the pool world, BOTH would be broke.

I'm just bringing to light the fact that rather complaining that there is no money in pool because it's not televised, we should starting looking at the leagues that are taking it all and not investing anything back into the sport.

.

I see your problem now. The APA has reinvested (theirs, not yours) millions into their business, the sport of amateur pool and this why you believe they have millions of "ugly" profits that you just would love to spend for them. "We" should NOT start looking at leagues, as once again it must be said: APA MONEY IS NOT FOR "WE" TO SPEND.

I
As of recently, Corey Deuel has been trying to get support from the leagues and it seems that everyone is against it saying things like: "Why should a portion of my league fees go the pros? They haven't done anything for me." I don't get it. What does the APA do for you with that extra money?

For some reason everyone is against the leagues sponsoring or running any sort of pro tour with the millions of dollars they are collecting from the amateurs.

Good for Corey and for you. Come up with a profitable (ugly or not) way to do this, market the hell out of it to the leagues, makes a piss-load of money, and give it to whomever you think needs it most.


Jeff Livingston

 

[BeiberLvr]

There is at least person in this thread thatshould never start a business

 

[chefjeff]

Well then you are smart. However 250,000 suckers out there keep playing every week...

And I never said it was my money. Please find a quote where I said that...

No, I'm not smart to not play APA. It's a subjective opinion of mine that has little to do with my average intelligence. Some of the best, smartest players in town play APA for THEIR reasons. Yours and my reasons don't enter into their reasons.

Value of league benefits for a player is SUBjective, not OBjective. What one does with HIS property is his (and whomever he is doing a deal with) SUBjective opinion of the value of the decision.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Celophanewrap]

Hell no I don't think it's all profit. You don't think it's the cost of business do you??

I think if you the actual numbers instead of you assume they might be you'd find that they do make a healthy profit, but it's not anywhere near what you think it is. I also believe that your active member number is pretty high and the APA's figure of 250000 to 300000 membership is very inflated. That membership total hasn't changed in several years, But here's a question, why would you stop support an organization that you feel is treating you poorly?

 

[chefjeff]

I remember back in the late 1960's, there was a short tv program on that was a story about a concert promoter. During the highly-attended concert a band of hippies went into the promoter's office and laid out some figures similar to what were presented here by the OP in this thread, and demanded that the promoter spend certain amounts of the obscene profits on social this and social that.

The promoter listened very carefully to the hippies' wishes until they were through. He then said one thing to them: IT IS NOT YOUR MONEY TO DECIDE.

It was one of my first lessons in the futility of envy and also one of my first lessons about property ownership and the sources of real wealth.

It's quite remarkable that I remember such a short film, but the principle was powerful and stuck with me.

fwiw,


Jeff Livingston

 

[Celophanewrap]

As of recently, Corey Deuel has been trying to get support from the leagues and it seems that everyone is against it saying things like: "Why should a portion of my league fees go the pros? They haven't done anything for me." I don't get it. What does the APA do for you with that extra money?

So how do you know this?
You know, if the Pros showed up at The APA and other league events maybe the leagues would be more inclined to give financial support, At the Big APA events over the last few years I have seen Jeanette Lee (and someone who would know mentioned to me what The APA pays her for a few appearances per year) and Mike Massey (McDermott brings him in). They're absolutely right, what have the pros done to help grow the sport. If they'd like some support from the leagues they should probably get out there and sell themselves. It probably wouldn't take much

 

[nicksaint26]

Well then you are smart. However 250,000 suckers out there keep playing every week...

And I never said it was my money. Please find a quote where I said that...

So we are suckers because we are amateur players who pay to play in an amateur league against our peers? What I pay per match is worth the table time alone and we have a beautiful 9 foot Gold Crown to practice on all night for free as well. So my $10 per week allows me to play a match and practice all night for free on great tables. I am such an idiot. I should be playing in pro tournaments instead, much more bang for my buck going 2 and out and paying a $100 entry. I am happy to pay a small fee to play with friends with the chance to go to Vegas every year. If my teams wins 1 match next week it will be my 3rd year in a row playing in the Nationals.

 

[Drop The Rock]

So we are suckers because we are amateur players who pay to play in an amateur league against our peers? What I pay per match is worth the table time alone and we have a beautiful 9 foot Gold Crown to practice on all night for free as well. So my $10 per week allows me to play a match and practice all night for free on great tables. I am such an idiot. I should be playing in pro tournaments instead, much more bang for my buck going 2 and out and paying a $100 entry. I am happy to pay a small fee to play with friends with the chance to go to Vegas every year. If my teams wins 1 match next week it will be my 3rd year in a row playing in the Nationals.

Yep. I don't play in APA anymore because I haven't had the time but all league members get free time on the 8 ft. tables all day everyday.

 

[justadub]

Well then you are smart. However 250,000 suckers out there keep playing every week...

And I never said it was my money. Please find a quote where I said that...

You seem to have a hair across your tookus regarding the APA.

250,000 of us play regularly. Are all of those players happy, probably not. Yet there remains roughly that number of players.

You know what that tells me? Not that they are "suckers". It tells me that at some level, these players realize that they are getting enough value for their $6-10 that they pay each week to continue to do it.

For that small amount, we get to play pool all night, if we so choose and there is an available practice table. We get a competitive league, one that is run consistently, for the most part. We get prizes, and incentives.

Is it the end all, no, I'd concede that. But is it a fair value for my $9? It sure as hell is.

The part that is hilarious is where you keep coming back to your contention that the APA is making all this money and somehow the pro's are "entitled" to some of it. The pro's can't even get out of their own way. They keep screwing up anything that attempts to get organized. The male pro's are so far away from a viable tour that trying to generate funding like this is foolish. Absurd. Even if you want to concede that the leagues somehow should be obligated to support the pro's, which obviously isn't a given.

Get the pro's organized first. Have a governing body established, one that the pro's have to answer to. THEN start talking about finding ways to fund it.

Don't ask the APA to do it. You know why? In addition to all the reasons we've all been telling you, IF the APA ran it, people would complain about that too! And then it would likely screw up a successful business that provides a great service to 250,000 players, who in turn support the all those pool rooms across the country. Wanna "save" pool? Don't screw it up for the rooms that are still open.....

 

[Kid Dynomite]

here is another problem with this "theory"

Is it a 9 ball/ 10 ball Pro Tour?
is it a Straight Pool Pro Tour?
Is it a Bank Pool Pro Tour?
is it a One Pocket Pro Tour?

Top 3 are hurting real bad. The one pocket is gaining steam from the streaming matches and the numbers are strong and climbing!

The sport has so many games and variations that in fighting over what games are funded and how things are allocated, will be the death of any venture or progress.

KD