Aiming oddity

[skipbales]

I have been practicing a shot I missed in a game. In doing so I noticed an oddity.
The shot is roughly a half ball hit. The object ball is 2 diamonds from the pocket on the end rail and about 1/2 diamond off the rail. I shoot it cross table from 1 diamond off of the long rail and 1/2 diamond off the end rail. On a 9' table I could probably do a regular closed bridge. My table is 44x88 so this makes the shot a rail bridge shot.

This is the oddity. I shot 10 balls with center or high and overcut most of them. I finally got the aim point worked out then switched to a below center stun or slight draw shot. All of a sudden I undercut everything. With draw it is a pure 1/2 ball hit but with a rolling cue ball it is slightly less.

I am hoping one of you might be able to help me understand what is going on. I can't decide if it is a visual difference or a stroke difference. I can't get quite as low on this shot as I would if it were farther off the rail. I THINK that is affecting my visual but I also probably hit the stun/draw 30% harder than the rolling ball so it could also be a stroke issue.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[Dan White]

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Are the balls dirty and sticky, or well polished? You get more throw with a stunned cue ball, but if the balls are clean this probably isn't the problem.

Why don't you shoot the same shot from the other side of the short rail, so it is a right cut instead of a left cut, or vice versa. If you have the exact same results, it might be a stroke problem, maybe grasping with the fingers when stunning, something like that. Also, I know when I shoot off the rail I have to be more careful not to let the cue go offline. Move the cue ball up a few inches and use a regular bridge and see what happens.

 

[anbukev]

It's all about cut induced throw and spin induced throw. You have to adjust your aimpoint after deciding what type of english/spin you are going to use. I always go back to Dr. Dave's throw resource page to refresh my memory. Here it is :

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html

 

[skipbales]

Are the balls dirty and sticky, or well polished? You get more throw with a stunned cue ball, but if the balls are clean this probably isn't the problem.

Why don't you shoot the same shot from the other side of the short rail, so it is a right cut instead of a left cut, or vice versa. If you have the exact same results, it might be a stroke problem, maybe grasping with the fingers when stunning, something like that. Also, I know when I shoot off the rail I have to be more careful not to let the cue go offline. Move the cue ball up a few inches and use a regular bridge and see what happens.

Balls are pretty clean but I will experiment with both of the suggestions you offered. My playing partner seems to trend the same way. He undercuts the same shot with low and overcuts with high as well.

 

[skipbales]

It's all about cut induced throw and spin induced throw. You have to adjust your aimpoint after deciding what type of english/spin you are going to use. I always go back to Dr. Dave's throw resource page to refresh my memory. Here it is :

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html

I think you have it!! As the video states the stun and near stun create the largest throw effect, hence a tendency to undercut. Also Dan's comment about the dirt on the balls increasing the cling could be a factor. But all in all I think it is the greater throw effect with the lower hit.

Thanks to you both.

 

[Dan White]

I think you have it!!

Skip - not sure of your level of play, but I want to warn you not to rush to judgment too quickly. It is easy and reassuring to "blame" the difference you see on the physics of how balls collide rather than on some defect in your stroke. Rest assured, unless you are a top player, there is a defect (probably more than one) in your stroke.

Also, I notice that your observations are not in complete agreement with Dr. Dave's article. For instance, you should be getting the same amount of throw with follow or draw. It seems you are seeing something a little different.

When you hit a stun or draw shot, you most probably are hitting the ball harder and you definitely are holding the cue at a different angle than for a follow shot. This probably changes how hard you are grasping the cue at contact. From my own experience with exactly this kind of thing, you may be doing something like clenching the fingers so little you don't notice it, yet it affects the outcome. When I learned to hit harder with the same amount of relaxation, problems like this disappeared.

The danger is that you start aiming differently to correct for something that may not really be a factor, instead of addressing a problem with your stroke. Maybe you could do a drill such as hitting the cue ball up and down the table over the head spot and foot spot. Hit at different speeds and look down table as if there were an object ball rather than looking at the cue ball. If you find the cue ball coming back to the left or right as you hit harder, your problem is more in your stroke than in the physics of the shot, IMO.

Sometimes you have to play around with these things (for several years) before you figure them out for good!

 

[skipbales]

Skip - not sure of your level of play, but I want to warn you not to rush to judgment too quickly. It is easy and reassuring to "blame" the difference you see on the physics of how balls collide rather than on some defect in your stroke. Rest assured, unless you are a top player, there is a defect (probably more than one) in your stroke.

Also, I notice that your observations are not in complete agreement with Dr. Dave's article. For instance, you should be getting the same amount of throw with follow or draw. It seems you are seeing something a little different.

When you hit a stun or draw shot, you most probably are hitting the ball harder and you definitely are holding the cue at a different angle than for a follow shot. This probably changes how hard you are grasping the cue at contact. From my own experience with exactly this kind of thing, you may be doing something like clenching the fingers so little you don't notice it, yet it affects the outcome. When I learned to hit harder with the same amount of relaxation, problems like this disappeared.

The danger is that you start aiming differently to correct for something that may not really be a factor, instead of addressing a problem with your stroke. Maybe you could do a drill such as hitting the cue ball up and down the table over the head spot and foot spot. Hit at different speeds and look down table as if there were an object ball rather than looking at the cue ball. If you find the cue ball coming back to the left or right as you hit harder, your problem is more in your stroke than in the physics of the shot, IMO.

Sometimes you have to play around with these things (for several years) before you figure them out for good!

I appreciate your comments and take them to heart. I don't doubt I have stroke flaws and you also bring up another valid point. With a draw shot the butt of the cue is higher than on a follow shot due to the proximity to the rail. This does increase the likelihood I could hit the cue ball off center slightly and not even realize it. I also hit harder on the draw and stun shots (as you mention) than on the follow. Whether I increase the grip pressure or not, the fact that the ball is hit harder alone would reduce the cling and might influence the shot in the way that my friend and I both experience.

I have done the drill you suggest with pretty close results but I also know that doesn't mean I am that accurate when actually hitting a cut shot. I think there are so many variables and it could be any combination that I will not likely ever know for sure. I do appreciate all of the help.

As for my level of play I am about an 8 on a 1-10 amateur scale. I am struggling to move that up to a solid 9 but it is a long process. Within that handicap number there is a wide range of ability. I am probably in the upper portion but not where I want to be.

 

[sixpack]

Skip - Are you sure your stroke is straight and you are hitting center cueball?

I'm going to assume you are cutting the ball to the right for this example of what I mean.

If you are hitting the CB a little right of where you mean to and you shoot aim the shot correctly, your CB will deflect slightly to the left - and you will overcut the ball.

The CB will also swerve back to the right - BUT - And this is a big BUT - it will swerve less on follow shots than draw shots. So it won't swerve all the way back to the correct line. Then you adjust your aim line until you are aiming for the new aim point to allow for the deflection and start making the ball that way.

Then you switched to a draw shot - and you still hit the CB a little right of where you are trying to - and the CB deflects the same amount to the left - BUT - same big BUT here - it swerves back towards the right much more than the follow shot and causes you to undercut the shot.

To test this theory, do this:

Set a piece of chalk on the end rail so that one corner is exactly in the middle of the rail. Then put the CB on the spot and try to hit the rail right at the corner of that chalk with center english.

The deflection difference will probably not be visible to you so pay attention to the path the CB takes back down table.

If you hit center ball the CB will hit right at the chalk and come straight back to your cue.

If you are hitting even slightly off center, it will take a little english off the rail and miss the end of your cue by a few inches or more.

Do this using your normal stroke and if you find a problem, then focus on getting everything back in alignment so you hit the ball perfectly. For me that is making sure my eye position is correct (cue looks straight and points at the target) and my grip hand is moving straight back and through. If you have trouble getting things back in alignment then either ask a friend to watch you, tape yourself or get a lesson with someone like Scott Lee. He loves to sort this kind of stuff out for players.

Do this drill to begin every practice session and do it until you get 10 perfect ones in a row. Then if you are practicing and you start missing balls, do this again until you get 10 perfect ones in a row.

Edit: Just saw Dan White recommended the same drill.

 

[skipbales]

Skip - Are you sure your stroke is straight and you are hitting center cueball?

I'm going to assume you are cutting the ball to the right for this example of what I mean.

If you are hitting the CB a little right of where you mean to and you shoot aim the shot correctly, your CB will deflect slightly to the left - and you will overcut the ball.

The CB will also swerve back to the right - BUT - And this is a big BUT - it will swerve less on follow shots than draw shots. So it won't swerve all the way back to the correct line. Then you adjust your aim line until you are aiming for the new aim point to allow for the deflection and start making the ball that way.

Then you switched to a draw shot - and you still hit the CB a little right of where you are trying to - and the CB deflects the same amount to the left - BUT - same big BUT here - it swerves back towards the right much more than the follow shot and causes you to undercut the shot.

To test this theory, do this:

Set a piece of chalk on the end rail so that one corner is exactly in the middle of the rail. Then put the CB on the spot and try to hit the rail right at the corner of that chalk with center english.

The deflection difference will probably not be visible to you so pay attention to the path the CB takes back down table.

If you hit center ball the CB will hit right at the chalk and come straight back to your cue.

If you are hitting even slightly off center, it will take a little english off the rail and miss the end of your cue by a few inches or more.

Do this using your normal stroke and if you find a problem, then focus on getting everything back in alignment so you hit the ball perfectly. For me that is making sure my eye position is correct (cue looks straight and points at the target) and my grip hand is moving straight back and through. If you have trouble getting things back in alignment then either ask a friend to watch you, tape yourself or get a lesson with someone like Scott Lee. He loves to sort this kind of stuff out for players.

Do this drill to begin every practice session and do it until you get 10 perfect ones in a row. Then if you are practicing and you start missing balls, do this again until you get 10 perfect ones in a row.

Edit: Just saw Dan White recommended the same drill.

thanks 6 pack. I probably do have stroke issues but they do not seem to be of a consistent nature. I don't always hit a little to the right, etc. I have tested this many times. I can shoot from the spot straight down table and come right back to my cue tip with pretty good regularity. If I miss it is as likely to be off one side as the other. I can also correct after a few hits and get right on the money. But as I mentioned to Dan, that doesn't mean when I am looking down the barrel at a cut shot with an elevated cue I don't have a different and possibly consistent flaw.

I spent a very productive day with Scott and learned a lot. Like Rome, my pool game isn't going to be built in a day.