FargoRate experiences in your area?

[fathomblue]

I'm attempting to do some research on FargoRate. Possibly introduce it to a local league for discussion. I've watched 3 videos on FB that Mike Page has put out. Read a few things on here. Downloaded the free Android app and looked it over.

I'd like to hear some real-world experiences from those out there in the trenches.

Biggest drawback you've seen? Positive experiences that possibly solved problems your league was having?

 

[cue fix]

I like the fargo Rating, as I am not the best pool player so it gives me a chance, even though I still lose. . Most complaints I hear are from the higher rated players who complain that It favors the weaker player. I think they liked it better when they could just run over the weaker player.

 

[Poolplaya9]

The biggest drawbacks to using FargoRate have nothing to do with FargoRate specifically but are inherent to the use of any handicap system. The first is when people have zero or very few games in the system. Not a whole lot you can do about that other than assign a starter rating that matches their true speed as close as can reasonably be determined until such time that their earned rating becomes fairly reliable (which doesn't take very long).

The second problem is some people just don't want to play with handicaps, especially really accurate ones, because it essentially removes relative skill from the equation and makes every match a coin flip based on who played more above their average speed that match as well as rolls. This too can be adjusted for where a slight edge of your choosing can be given to the higher rated player so that they have a little better than a 50% chance to win the match. The theory here is that the more skilled player should get a little "reward" or slight advantage for having those superior skills. This is the method I personally find the most fair and most appealing if a handicap system is to be used. Mike used to have a good video explained how to handicap the matches this way on his old site (where the higher rated player is always the slight favorite in the match instead of it being dead even), not sure if it is on the new site or still available anywhere or not but it is very easy to do.

FargoRate truly is as good as a handicap system can possibly be and is miles better than all the others.

 

[one stroke]

I'm attempting to do some research on FargoRate. Possibly introduce it to a local league for discussion. I've watched 3 videos on FB that Mike Page has put out. Read a few things on here. Downloaded the free Android app and looked it over.

I'd like to hear some real-world experiences from those out there in the trenches.

Biggest drawback you've seen? Positive experiences that possibly solved problems your league was having?

Most leagues I've played in have a pretty good rating system that sometimes involve spotters , to help solidify the ratings are accurate , in big leagues like the APA even if they fool local reps and operators and get to the National level the moment they shoot 2 levels above thier rankings thier locked in at that ranking lifetime , that can even happen in a loss I highly doubt the APA will give thier scores up to Fargo as Fargo in in bed with the BCA ,, however I can see them using it as a tool to catch sandbaggers
Most leagues are carried by lower level players anyway so the benefit would be almost zero
APA masters and the new Tap version in the works have no handicaps and use rules similar to the Expo a couple players less than 1pct might slip thru the cracks but I highly doubt that number would be brought down using Fargo ,,

The actual benefit would be just what you will see happening with the BCA you won't be able to play in a event without a rating ,, however players who want to cheat will have zero problem keeping their rating where they want it again a 1 % thing
Another benefit like a USGA handicap players having a handicap that transfers to other leagues or tournomets across the country it allows them to play in those events
I predict you will see these tourneys poping up in the near future where Fargo was originated and branching out from there ,, I'm sure BCA will be using it very soon

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[one stroke]

The biggest drawbacks to using FargoRate have nothing to do with FargoRate specifically but are inherent to the use of any handicap system. The first is when people have zero or very few games in the system. Not a whole lot you can do about that other than assign a starter rating that matches their true speed as close as can reasonably be determined until such time that their earned rating becomes fairly reliable (which doesn't take very long).

The second problem is some people just don't want to play with handicaps, especially really accurate ones, because it essentially removes relative skill from the equation and makes every match a coin flip based on who played more above their average speed that match as well as rolls. This too can be adjusted for where a slight edge of your choosing can be given to the higher rated player so that they have a little better than a 50% chance to win the match. The theory here is that the more skilled player should get a little "reward" or slight advantage for having those superior skills. This is the method I personally find the most fair and most appealing if a handicap system is to be used. Mike used to have a good video explained how to handicap the matches this way on his old site (where the higher rated player is always the slight favorite in the match instead of it being dead even), not sure if it is on the new site or still available anywhere or not but it is very easy to do.

FargoRate truly is as good as a handicap system can possibly be and is miles better than all the others.

Miles better than any other by all means tell us what proff of that you have ,, do you even know how the APA or Tap concludes thier handicaps ,, are you suggesting the Fargo rating can't be minipulated ,, there is no analytics that can't be minipulated Fargo is no different ,, they do have a jump on the gun sorta speak because it's new , but as players become aware the players will know what goes into Fargo and what doesn't

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[Poolplaya9]

Miles better than any other by all means tell us what proff of that you have ,, do you even know how the APA or Tap concludes thier handicaps ,, are you suggesting the Fargo rating can't be minipulated ,, there is no analytics that can't be minipulated Fargo is no different ,, they do have a jump on the gun sorta speak because it's new , but as players become aware the players will know what goes into Fargo and what doesn't

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Anybody that can't see how FargoRate is so superior to other systems simply isn't familiar with the basics of how each one comes up with their ratings or they don't have a true understanding of it even if they do know the rough process they are using. Yes any handicap system can be manipulated but it is more difficult to do with FargoRate and generally isn't worth the time/money/effort investment to do it like it is with many other systems.

 

[Okie]

I am advocating Fargorate here in OKC. I have been at it for a little over a year now. I am running 3 tournaments weekly using Fargoratings. I even used Mike's spreadsheet for a round robin tourney this evening.

In 20+ years around pool I have not seen a better system. Not perfect by any means but it does it's job very well! I am still curious how effective cheaters will be but so far I haven't seen much of a problem.

If you are established and happen to be going through OKC feel free to look me up as you will be welcomed as a known player!

 

[DunnM1]

FargoRating

First thing you need to understand is it is just the handicap system of the BCAPL. All the other leagues (APA, VNEA, TAP, NAPA), have their own system and there is a zero percent chance that the other leagues will share their data with any other league. What looks like is happening is the BCAPL wants to get more players, to compete against the other leagues that are more in line with the lesser players (APA, NAPA, TAP). What is happening is "sandbagging", now that the BCAPL has gone the way of FargoRating. The big difference is that the APA pays out $25,000 for first and disqualifies around eight teams per year. So the system caters to those individuals that wants to play one time a week, or to someone that players multiple times a week that only plays their league matches and then goes home. I myself would rather win something and be moved up than to be moved to another division just because of a rating number. But people these days don't put n the work to get better. I have a full time job and for me I want to get better so I put in the time and effort. That means taking lessons, hitting tournaments and hitting balls. Then all I hear is you play to good to play in the open, or this division or that. But the fact remains I have not won on any national stage. State yes, but that has been over eight years. I would rather see everyone put into the same division and who wins wins? But no we want our leagues to listen more to the CRY BABIES!

 

[jburkm002]

I just did a search on my phone. Where did you get an app? Biggest issue I see is, my rating is for data from 2012. Been active in leagues ever since. Also when I look up others I know play league. They have no rating. Names are there but no robustness and no rating. Not blaming Fargo. Just not sure why there is no data.

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[robsnotes4u]

First I have been around FargoRate for 5 years and here is what I have experienced

I am able to actually watch my progress, whether it is up or down by my rating.

My rating doesn't consist of one, two, or more people watching just a handful of games to give me their perception of my rating. Have you ever asked a league operator how do I know I moved from a B to an A? Have you ever played in different towns and have a different rating?

We use it a lot to match up. I know if somebody is 100 points higher he basically will win twice as many games. It is very accurate.

It makes league teams, scotch doubles teams, etc more even when you have a cap.

It makes for awesome tourneys like the quadrangle, knowing you are playing people around your level.

Where I play we all know our rating and it is talked about all the time. Everyone is trying to improve.

It takes sandbagging out of the game.

I could go on but I had a little too much last night


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[fastone371]

I think Fargo works very well. Previously in our BCA state tournaments you were ranked by letter, the only way you moved to a higher skill rank was to finish in the top 10% or 15% of the money once a year. If you ducked the state tournament you would not get moved up to a higher skill level. Up here in WI we have been using MyPoolstats which is based on Fargo's algorithms for 3-4 years so many players are established. The 2016 state tournament used Fargo for the first time, we had 2 divisions, Gold and Silver, they split the field in half, the upper half being Gold, lower was Silver. Then within each division each match was handicapped based on your Fargo number and depending on the skill level difference one player might go to 6 and the other to 5, or 6 & 6, 6 & 3, etc, Im sure you get the idea. It worked out very well and as far as I know there was a minimum of complaints.

 

[one stroke]

Anybody that can't see how FargoRate is so superior to other systems simply isn't familiar with the basics of how each one comes up with their ratings or they don't have a true understanding of it even if they do know the rough process they are using. Yes any handicap system can be manipulated but it is more difficult to do with FargoRate and generally isn't worth the time/money/effort investment to do it like it is with many other systems.

Not to long ago someone asked a guestion about Alex I think and how his rating was lower than some of the players in front of him ,,
Mikes response was he only needs a few more good scores and he will leapfrog them
So if you can go up that easily it only stands to reason post a few bad scores and you go down ,,
Any system based solely on numbers can minipulated ,,when cutoff points are established for brackets players will do what it takes to get into the lower bracket if thier just above that level ,,

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[mikepage]

Not to long ago someone asked a guestion about Alex I think and how his rating was lower than some of the players in front of him ,,
Mikes response was he only needs a few more good scores and he will leapfrog them
So if you can go up that easily it only stands to reason post a few bad scores and you go down ,,
Any system based solely on numbers can minipulated ,,when cutoff points are established for brackets players will do what it takes to get into the lower bracket if thier just above that level ,,

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Not a few good "scores," but a few good "tournaments." This is a distinction that actually matters for the point you are trying to make about manipulation. First, yes Alex has gone up 10 points of so in the last six weeks. But in that six weeks, he has played 42 matches totaling about 700 games (shown below). He is now world top 8; he is playing that strong.

But let's imagine Alex instead wanted to try to go DOWN 10 points because he thought being 780 instead of 790 would give him some sort of advantage. Well here is the deal: if Alex threw the matches in these tournaments in an attempt to lower hist rating, he would not have played 42 matches and 700 games. Instead he would have played 12 matches (there are six tournaments here). With 12 matches instead of 42, his rating would not have moved so much. And he would have paid the entry fees and spent the time.

Even low-life cheaters tire of this strategy pretty quickly.

 

[robsnotes4u]

I don't understand why everyone thinks people want to sandbag. Monetarily it just doesn't make sense as Mike stated

I believe people do not sandbag as much as people think. I feel it is an excuse when they aren't playing as good.


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[one stroke]

Not a few good "scores," but a few good "tournaments." This is a distinction that actually matters for the point you are trying to make about manipulation. First, yes Alex has gone up 10 points of so in the last six weeks. But in that six weeks, he has played 42 matches totaling about 700 games (shown below). He is now world top 8; he is playing that strong.

But let's imagine Alex instead wanted to try to go DOWN 10 points because he thought being 780 instead of 790 would give him some sort of advantage. Well here is the deal: if Alex threw the matches in these tournaments in an attempt to lower hist rating, he would not have played 42 matches and 700 games. Instead he would have played 12 matches (there are six tournaments here). With 12 matches instead of 42, his rating would not have moved so much. And he would have paid the entry fees and spent the time.

Even low-life cheaters tire of this strategy pretty quickly.

So I guess if Alex is entering few tournaments and playing like a dog but his Fargo rating has not moved and he's playing a player who is playing better than his ranking but I'm asking for games on the wire based on the rating , where's the benefit in the rating

The biggest by far cheating happens in team play , a lower handicap player that plays above his level when it's needed most , yet he's not needed to do that but a couple times a session ,,he can win a couple of matches against his skill level lose to higher skill leveled players on a regular basis then win in the playoffs when needed


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[one stroke]

I don't understand why everyone thinks people want to sandbag. Monetarily it just doesn't make sense as Mike stated

I believe people do not sandbag as much as people think. I feel it is an excuse when they aren't playing as good.


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The biggest sandbagging is done in league play and yes it's comon


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[lorider]

The biggest sandbagging is done in league play and yes it's comon


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Not trying to be argumentative here but what facts xo you base your opinion on ?


Have you played in different leagues in different states or is your experience just one league in one area ?

I am asking because my opinion is different but its based just on my experience in several leagues confined to where I live..

I have seen evidence of sandbagging in every league I have played in but I do t think its all that common..

I really think most accusations come from people who can't accept the fact they lost due to their own level of play that particular match. Others just cant accept that a lower level player beat them. Others are just plain sore losers.

I have been called a sand bagger or have had people complain about my handicap to my face....behind my back....to any other player or team mate that would listen and even to the lo too many times to count.

As a matter of fact half way through my 1st ever match in apa the opposing captain called the lo complaining about my handicap although rules state all men start as a 4 unless they were a known player.

What every one that calls me a sandbagger fails to realize is I am a 61 year old man who works at manual labor every day and I have 29% disability in my shooting hand.

If I have a hard day at work or my nerve damage acts up I will shoot terrible. If I have an easy day and go to league with no aches and pains I will shoot great. Actually there are a multitude of reasons why people shoot great one day or lousy the next....it don't mean they are sandbaggers..

 

[center pocket]

I just want know how I can input scores from my own matches. Yet to see a good answer on that, and I have searched threads.

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[fathomblue]

I had a nice, long, informative phone conversation with Mark Griffin today. Came away very impressed. I've already relayed the info to Bob Nunley at The Billiard Club, LLC in Mountain Home, Arkansas. He's an AZB'er and probably following this thread.

They plan on inputting results to FargoRate starting this upcoming week. They might very well be the 1st pool room in the state to do so. Having 2 tournaments a week with a very regular cast of characters should get them established pretty quickly.

 

[one stroke]

Not trying to be argumentative here but what facts xo you base your opinion on ?


Have you played in different leagues in different states or is your experience just one league in one area ?

I am asking because my opinion is different but its based just on my experience in several leagues confined to where I live..

I have seen evidence of sandbagging in every league I have played in but I do t think its all that common..

I really think most accusations come from people who can't accept the fact they lost due to their own level of play that particular match. Others just cant accept that a lower level player beat them. Others are just plain sore losers.

I have been called a sand bagger or have had people complain about my handicap to my face....behind my back....to any other player or team mate that would listen and even to the lo too many times to count.

As a matter of fact half way through my 1st ever match in apa the opposing captain called the lo complaining about my handicap although rules state all men start as a 4 unless they were a known player.

What every one that calls me a sandbagger fails to realize is I am a 61 year old man who works at manual labor every day and I have 29% disability in my shooting hand.

If I have a hard day at work or my nerve damage acts up I will shoot terrible. If I have an easy day and go to league with no aches and pains I will shoot great. Actually there are a multitude of reasons why people shoot great one day or lousy the next....it don't mean they are sandbaggers..

Lol ya I actualy just plucked every thing I say out of thin air one team I know of has been to Vegas over a dozen times I can assure you they don't do that without creative ways to keep players handicaps in check
That's not the point the point is would Fargo stop that from happening
My bet is no it would not or it may at first till the cheaters figure how to beat the new system wouldn't take them long
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