No pushout allowed after the break in APA 9 ball league?

[Celophanewrap]

Wow , that sucks. No push out and no jump cues in a tournament that is non-apa event but uses APA rules which is basically, no jump cues and no push outs. Why?

Because they're using APA rules.
The question you should be asking is why are they using APA rules.
Jump cues and push outs do give an advantage to a better player. If they wanted to play in an actual standard 9 ball tournament there are probably other houses that can accommodate them. It sounds like this particular house is trying develop a player / tournament base that will come back and spend money
If they are trying to build the tournament player base, and it's a place that has mostly league bangers that are not as skilled as some of the actual players that come in there the APA rules give the less skilled player a little more of an "even playing field".
The cream will more than likely rise to the top anyways, but the APA rules probably give the lesser skilled player a better chance to finish in the money and keep them coming to play in his tournament

 

[sbpoolleague]

If I'm trying to play in a tourney and I hear that APA rules will be used, I put my cue away and go home. Playing APA rules is like MLB playing T-ball or NFL playing flag football. Some might enjoy it but not me.

 

[Celophanewrap]

If I'm trying to play in a tourney and I hear that APA rules will be used, I put my cue away and go home. Playing APA rules is like MLB playing T-ball or NFL playing flag football. Some might enjoy it but not me.

Each to their own. I'm sure it's a wise choice for you

 

[trob]

Wow , that sucks. No push out and no jump cues in a tournament that is non-apa event but uses APA rules which is basically, no jump cues and no push outs. Why?

Because Apa is more for the lower to middle handy Capp players. Guys like me could control the racks to much if we can push out or jump. There trying to take a few weapons from us . I've been playing Apa 9 ball for a couple years and I find it fun and challenging the way it is.

 

[Skippy27]

Because Apa is more for the lower to middle handy Capp players. Guys like me could control the racks to much if we can push out or jump. There trying to take a few weapons from us . I've been playing Apa 9 ball for a couple years and I find it fun and challenging the way it is.

Well I am sure you are a world class player in all but it does take more skill to kick at shots then to push or jump.

In addition, you can jump. You just have to do it the harder way and use an actual stick that isn't specially designed to make it easier for you.

Of course you know those things being such an elite player so far above anyone that would play in the APA.

 

[Keith Jawahir]

Well I am sure you are a world class player in all but it does take more skill to kick at shots then to push or jump.

In addition, you can jump. You just have to do it the harder way and use an actual stick that isn't specially designed to make it easier for you.

Of course you know those things being such an elite player so far above anyone that would play in the APA.

I think "Cue" is the word you were looking for.

 

[jeremy8000]

APA requires you break as hard as you can with control.

Any rules with a number of balls also stipulates breaking hard enough just to comply with that rule does not mean you can't be penalized for doing it.

APA doesn't require you to break hard - it just mandates you can't break safe, and sets a minimum number of balls to hit a rail.

Basically, if your break didn't demonstrate intent to spread the rack enough to make at least a ball and have an opportunity to run - or at least try - it could be deemed a 'safe' break and penalties could result.

APA is definitely focused on giving an edge to players of lower skill, as that's their sustenance.

On average, higher skill players will break more often, and so are more subject to bad luck (at least for me, I find I make a ball and hook myself on the break far, far more often than I don't make a ball and hook my opponent). That, plus the fact a higher skill level player has to go through more racks to win a match swings the benefit to the lowers...

Adding a pushout would really hurt lower skill level players with the current point races. Personally, I'd love it if they allowed a pushout and altered the number of points required per handicap to rebalance it, maybe something like:

SL......Pts needed no push.......Pts needed w/ push
1....................14...................................12
2....................19...................................18
3....................25...................................25
4....................31...................................32
5....................38...................................40
6....................46...................................50
7....................55...................................60
8....................65...................................72
9....................75...................................85

 

[justinb386]

True and push outs are for panzies.

Lol, so that means that you are calling all of the pro playing community a bunch of panzies. Very funny.

 

[justinb386]

Because they're using APA rules.
The question you should be asking is why are they using APA rules.
Jump cues and push outs do give an advantage to a better player. If they wanted to play in an actual standard 9 ball tournament there are probably other houses that can accommodate them. It sounds like this particular house is trying develop a player / tournament base that will come back and spend money
If they are trying to build the tournament player base, and it's a place that has mostly league bangers that are not as skilled as some of the actual players that come in there the APA rules give the less skilled player a little more of an "even playing field".
The cream will more than likely rise to the top anyways, but the APA rules probably give the lesser skilled player a better chance to finish in the money and keep them coming to play in his tournament

Yeah, and they make the races very short to give the weaker players an even better chance of winning. Even though I was put in the losers bracket by another 6, I was still banned from ever playing again.

 

[lorider]

Lol, so that means that you are calling all of the pro playing community a bunch of panzies. Very funny.

Not speaking for Skippy but pushouts do make the game easier for amateur players in other leagues ...along with jump.cues..i can see where the word ...panzie ...would be befitting towards other league players who describe apa players as bangers yet whine about spa rules make the game too hard for them .

The same goes for 8 ball with closed break vs open break plus various other rules which makes the game easier in other leagues.

Now I'm not calling you a panzie but you did start a thread whining about spa rules vs other league rules didn't you ?:grin-square:

 

[justinb386]

Well I am sure you are a world class player in all but it does take more skill to kick at shots then to push or jump.

In addition, you can jump. You just have to do it the harder way and use an actual stick that isn't specially designed to make it easier for you.

Of course you know those things being such an elite player so far above anyone that would play in the APA.

I never learned how to use a jump cue. Back when I was playing a lot (in my teen years), I was pretty good at doing jump shots with a full cue. This may have been even before jump cues were popular (back in the 90's). I have no idea when the 1st jump cues started to get popular, or started getting made.

 

[justinb386]

Not speaking for Skippy but pushouts do make the game easier for amateur players in other leagues ...along with jump.cues..i can see where the word ...panzie ...would be befitting towards other league players who describe apa players as bangers yet whine about spa rules make the game too hard for them .

The same goes for 8 ball with closed break vs open break plus various other rules which makes the game easier in other leagues.

Now I'm not calling you a panzie but you did start a thread whining about spa rules vs other league rules didn't you ?:grin-square:

I also think that the 2nd ball break should not be legal. The match that I lost, I lost because the guy made the 8 on the break, by using that 2nd ball break (that makes the 8 ball fly out of the rack toward the side pocket almost every time). It seems that all of the league players that I have ever played against use that 2nd ball break (when playing 8 ball). I do not understand why there is no rule stating that you must break by hitting the head ball 1st.

 

[justinb386]

Not speaking for Skippy but pushouts do make the game easier for amateur players in other leagues ...along with jump.cues..i can see where the word ...panzie ...would be befitting towards other league players who describe apa players as bangers yet whine about spa rules make the game too hard for them .

The same goes for 8 ball with closed break vs open break plus various other rules which makes the game easier in other leagues.

Now I'm not calling you a panzie but you did start a thread whining about spa rules vs other league rules didn't you ?:grin-square:

I imagine that the weaker players would also want to be able to push out after the break (if they make a ball and hook themselves, for example), but maybe most of them would not care either way.

 

[lorider]

I also think that the 2nd ball break should not be legal. The match that I lost, I lost because the guy made the 8 on the break, by using that 2nd ball break (that makes the 8 ball fly out of the rack toward the side pocket almost every time). It seems that all of the league players that I have ever played against use that 2nd ball break (when playing 8 ball). I do not understand why there is no rule stating that you must break by hitting the head ball 1st.

So a guy made the 8 ball on the break using the 2nd ball break causing you to lose the match and now you think that break shot should be illegal huh ?

It really does sound like you are whining Justin. Nearly every one on this forum will tell you that break shot is a crap shoot at best.

 

[jojopiff]

I imagine that the weaker players would also want to be able to push out after the break (if they make a ball and hook themselves, for example), but maybe most of them would not care either way.

I believe this is very incorrect. People don't know what they don't know and essentially getting into a battle of wits with a person who is much more seasoned and/or a superior player is not going to benefit the weaker player, at all.

The weaker players might think they want it, but they don't. I play 9ball but am not a 9ball player and if I play someone of equivalent skill who is a 9ball player then I'm more likely going to come out loser. And especially if a 9 is playing a 5, in most cases the 5 is going to be at a rather large tactical advantage.

I don't like the rule, but I understand and appreciate it's place in that game for that league. No different really than the break being closed in 8ball. It's intent is to help the lower skilled player.

 

[justadub]

I imagine that the weaker players would also want to be able to push out after the break (if they make a ball and hook themselves, for example), but maybe most of them would not care either way.

The point is the beginner player wont execute the push out well, stitch themselves worse and get it passed back, or leave an easy shot for the advanced player.

Or the advanced player, stitched on the break, can execute it well enuf to either get an easier shot to play safe on (if passed back) or encourage a weak player to make a tough shot. Thereby not giving up BIH when he stitched himself.

The advanced player can FAR better take advantage of the push out rule, than a beginner. Same for jump shots, especially with jump cues.

And the APA is aimed at beginning players. Surely you can understand that.

 

[Icon of Sin]

I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of this...

What would prevent me from soft breaking to get the CB behind the rack area? As long as 4 balls hit a rail, it's legal, but my opponent might not be able to see the one ball. Can't push = potential ball in hand for me.

APA rules state you must break hard... or try to... I got called on that shit before.

 

[Icon of Sin]

Is it true that there is no push out allowed in APA 9 ball league?

I played in a tournament last night, and they played APA rules.

Anyways, on one of the opponents breaks (they played loser breaks too, by the way), I was hooked.

So, I asked if I could push out, and my opponent (and the TD) told me that there are no push outs allowed after the break (because that is APA rules).

I have not played APA 9 ball since 2002, but I do not remember that rule (no push out allowed after the break).

Just curious if that is true about APA 9 ball league (I assume they were correct, and it is true, but just wanted to be sure about that).

Thanks.

Yep. Punished for making a successful break.

 

[Skippy27]

APA doesn't require you to break hard - it just mandates you can't break safe, and sets a minimum number of balls to hit a rail.

Basically, if your break didn't demonstrate intent to spread the rack enough to make at least a ball and have an opportunity to run - or at least try - it could be deemed a 'safe' break and penalties could result.

APA is definitely focused on giving an edge to players of lower skill, as that's their sustenance.

On average, higher skill players will break more often, and so are more subject to bad luck (at least for me, I find I make a ball and hook myself on the break far, far more often than I don't make a ball and hook my opponent). That, plus the fact a higher skill level player has to go through more racks to win a match swings the benefit to the lowers...

Adding a pushout would really hurt lower skill level players with the current point races. Personally, I'd love it if they allowed a pushout and altered the number of points required per handicap to rebalance it, maybe something like:

I do not believe adding a push would hurt lower skill players more because it is a panzy move to begin with. Pushing is either an ego test or a defensive shot. You are pushing in an attempt to put the ball in a spot that either you think will make your opponent take a chance at it or that you think you can complete if they pass on it or you are simply moving a ball to prevent a run out or easy win being you can't which isn't really a concern against lower skilled players to begin with. At least in my area, it is not like 2 players that are way different in skill play each other very often so.......

The very last sentence in the APA rules says "Remember, break as hard as you can with control.". That is below the section that says 4 balls must hit a rail and that you can't break soft or safe. The only thing there not subjective is the 4 balls to a rail so it is not worth an argument as to what constitutes hard enough. Just don't be a panzy and hit the balls. If you are good enough it will not matter much what happens with the random placement of the balls so why would you need a push out?

 

[Celophanewrap]

Yeah, and they make the races very short to give the weaker players an even better chance of winning. Even though I was put in the losers bracket by another 6, I was still banned from ever playing again.

I would suppose it's more about you not being an APA player. If you ever decide to play APA league and get an established S/L I would bet you'll be welcomed back if you want.
Of course if you were whining and crying about every little thing I wouldn't want you in my tournament either, or you could just look at it like you're several steps above people he was hoping to get to play, you're just too good