Front end mass, taper Questions!

[nfuids]

Hi guys!

I'm wondering where could I read about how does the front end mass affect the cue ball (deflection, spin, etc.)? I mean why is it so important? I'd like to do some basic testing with my z2, 314-2, V and Revo shaft and see how it differs, but I have yet to know what to look for exactly.

Same question about the taper, or is it just that the taper affect the front end mass?

I like to know how thing works and that I have not understand yet!

Any help, explanation or link to resourceful site would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

 

[Poolplaya9]

Hi guys!

I'm wondering where could I read about how does the front end mass affect the cue ball (deflection, spin, etc.)? I mean why is it so important? I'd like to do some basic testing with my z2, 314-2, V and Revo shaft and see how it differs, but I have yet to know what to look for exactly.

Same question about the taper, or is it just that the taper affect the front end mass?

I like to know how thing works and that I have not understand yet!

Any help, explanation or link to resourceful site would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Watch this video from Mike Page (creator of FargoRate) as it concisely explains most everything you want to know and is a fantastic video that was really well done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms

This page from Dr. Dave goes into even more detail covering everything you are wanting to know including how taper affects squirt, how end mass affects spin, good ways to test for squirt and other related stuff and is also a fantastic resource.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html

A few points to know are that in regards to cues, the weight of the first few inches (roughly the first 6 inches or so) of the tip of the pool stick are what almost solely has the affect on how much squirt (deflection) you will have. Obviously there is no way to be able to weigh just the first few inches of a shaft, so how can you tell which shaft will have more or less squirt than another shaft then? You can't really without actually testing them to find out.

But we can use some common sense and sometimes have a very rough idea of squirt characteristics of a certain shaft just by taking into consideration what we know about how much certain things weigh. A wood shaft that has the first few inches of the shaft by the tip hollowed out should have a front end mass that weighs less (and therefore squirts less) than a similar shaft that is still solid wood because the hollow one has less end mass (material) and therefore less weight, and less weight equals less squirt. Assuming similar tips/ferrules and similar shaft taper and composition (both shafts being the same wood, or both graphite, etc), a 12 mm shaft should weigh less in the roughly six inch section starting at the tip (and therefore squirt less) than a 13 mm shaft for the same reason as above--less end mass (material) from the smaller diameter equates to less weight which equates to less squirt.

Sometimes it can be pretty obvious when comparing apples to apples like above, but for example say you have a 12 mm solid shaft and a 13 mm "low deflection" shaft that is hollowed out for the first few inches. Which of those would have less end mass and will therefore have less squirt? Well it isn't so obvious now which has less end mass/weight so who knows. You will have to test to find out and this is usually the case particularly since there are many other variables that can also affect the end mass such as the weight of the tip, the weight of the ferrule (affected by its thickness, length, and type of material), the hardness of the tip, the type of shaft taper (only in the sense that the taper affects end mass/weight), etc.

The lowest deflection shafts tend to be hollowed out for several inches near the tip, have smaller shaft diameters, and use thin short ferrules made of a really light material because all of these things reduce end mass/weight.

 

[nfuids]

Watch this video from Mike Page (creator of FargoRate) as it concisely explains most everything you want to know and is a fantastic video that was really well done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms

This page from Dr. Dave goes into even more detail covering everything you are wanting to know including how taper affects squirt, how end mass affects spin, good ways to test for squirt and other related stuff and is also a fantastic resource.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html

A few points to know are that in regards to cues, the weight of the first few inches (roughly the first 6 inches or so) of the tip of the pool stick are what almost solely has the affect on how much squirt (deflection) you will have. Obviously there is no way to be able to weigh just the first few inches of a shaft, so how can you tell which shaft will have more or less squirt than another shaft then? You can't really without actually testing them to find out.

But we can use some common sense and sometimes have a very rough idea of squirt characteristics of a certain shaft just by taking into consideration what we know about how much certain things weigh. A wood shaft that has the first few inches of the shaft by the tip hollowed out should have a front end mass that weighs less (and therefore squirts less) than a similar shaft that is still solid wood because the hollow one has less end mass (material) and therefore less weight, and less weight equals less squirt. Assuming similar tips/ferrules and similar shaft taper and composition (both shafts being the same wood, or both graphite, etc), a 12 mm shaft should weigh less in the roughly six inch section starting at the tip (and therefore squirt less) than a 13 mm shaft for the same reason as above--less end mass (material) from the smaller diameter equates to less weight which equates to less squirt.

Sometimes it can be pretty obvious when comparing apples to apples like above, but for example say you have a 12 mm solid shaft and a 13 mm "low deflection" shaft that is hollowed out for the first few inches. Which of those would have less end mass and will therefore have less squirt? Well it isn't so obvious now which has less end mass/weight so who knows. You will have to test to find out and this is usually the case particularly since there are many other variables that can also affect the end mass such as the weight of the tip, the weight of the ferrule (affected by its thickness, length, and type of material), the hardness of the tip, the type of shaft taper (only in the sense that the taper affects end mass/weight), etc.

The lowest deflection shafts tend to be hollowed out for several inches near the tip, have smaller shaft diameters, and use thin short ferrules made of a really light material because all of these things reduce end mass/weight.

Thank you very much for the lenghty respomse and links. Helped me better understand!

Now my question is that the revo seems to be lighter at the tip, therefor should have less aquirt, but at the same time, i assume the revo is a lot more rigid than a wood shaft, which i guess would increase squirt, isn't?

 

[Cornerman]

Hi guys!

I'm wondering where could I read about how does the front end mass affect the cue ball (deflection, spin, etc.)? I mean why is it so important? I'd like to do some basic testing with my z2, 314-2, V and Revo shaft and see how it differs, but I have yet to know what to look for exactly.

Same question about the taper, or is it just that the taper affect the front end mass?

I like to know how thing works and that I have not understand yet!

Any help, explanation or link to resourceful site would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

The best place to read about mass at the front end and how it affects squirt (cue ball deflection)?

Easy: Rosabelle, Believe by Thomas Wayne. Before that, nobody put down anything like it. Check the date. There has been no major changes in the views of squirt since then (aside from what was gleaned from the Jacksonville Experiments), regardless of how many believe it's so new.

For the tough reading, try Ron Shepard's Everything You Want to Know About Squirt But Were Too Afraid To Ask

Freddie

 

[Cornerman]

Thank you very much for the lenghty respomse and links. Helped me better understand!

Now my question is that the revo seems to be lighter at the tip, therefor should have less aquirt, but at the same time, i assume the revo is a lot more rigid than a wood shaft, which i guess would increase squirt, isn't?

If you read the articles, rigid isn't part of the equation. As a mechanical engineer in an industry that develops uses for composite materials, the first time I suggested rigid, negatively loaded carbon fiber as a low-squirt, highly rigid solution for a shaft was over a decade ago.

Freddie

 

[Shaft]

I agree with all the prior posts, and the links will help you a lot.

Bottom line:
Every cue creates some amount of squirt.
Find the natural pivot point on your cue (longer on LD shafts, shorter on traditional shafts), mark it, and get comfortable using it.

Ink marks wear off. I embedded a super tiny CJ stone in my shaft to mark the NPP.

Best of luck!

 

[Poolplaya9]

Thank you very much for the lenghty respomse and links. Helped me better understand!

Now my question is that the revo seems to be lighter at the tip, therefor should have less aquirt, but at the same time, i assume the revo is a lot more rigid than a wood shaft, which i guess would increase squirt, isn't?

Both those links that I provided already covered how the shaft stiffness affects squirt.

In the first link it was briefly discussed starting at 7:03. I modified the link below to take you straight to the part where he briefly discusses it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJ7bDafTms&t=7m3s

The second link that I had posted from Dr. Dave discussed it in several places on that page in much more detail. Below I provided the links directly to the specific sections on that page where Dr. Dave discusses it in much detail.
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#endmass
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#cause

The short answer to your question as I understand it is that yes shaft stiffness can have some (indirect) effect, but not really for the reasons you would likely think and expect but the endmass (weight) of the first few inches of the shaft generally has much more effect than shaft stiffness does and and in comparison the shaft stiffness is usually far less significant.

I think a very over simplified way of looking at how shaft stiffness can affect squirt is that with a very flexible shaft maybe only the first 5 inches of endmass/weight of the shaft will "count" or have an effect, but with a very stiff shaft it can increase the amount of the endmass that "counts" so in the case of a very stiff shaft maybe the first 9 inches of shaft endmass/weight will have an effect instead of just the first 5 inches. In either case keep in mind that the closer the weight is to the tip of the cue the more it "counts" and the more effect it has. If you put a piece of lead in the shaft one inch from the tip it will increase the squirt much more than if you put that same piece of lead in the shaft two inches from the tip. Because of this the difference between the effect from the first 5 inches of endmass and the effect from the first 9 inches of endmass would not be as large as you might expect because at those distances from the tip none of it is having nearly as much effect as the mass (weight) nearer to the tip does. I welcome all correction or elaboration from Dr. Dave or Mike Page or Bob Jewett.

 

[nfuids]

Thanks, I had not noticed I had so many replies!!

I re-read the article and it all makes sense, but I still not fully understand.

If a bigger tip/end of shaft weights more, how come the revo is that "big"? I mean instead of 12.9 they could have made it like a "regular" shaft. Less weight, less deflection?!

I saw Darren Appleton on facebook, writing that he likes his revo, but had it modified to his liking. He wouldnt say exactly what modification he had requested from predator, but I think I read somewhere he had the tip sized down to 12.4mm and a slightly different taper.

At some point, will the taper really make a difference or is it more a personnal preference? I read about taper today and beside having a pro taper that makes the frond end mass smaller, I haven't seen any benefit to not have a pro taper.

I even read that a pro taper could make you stroke a bit different because the shaft would kinda move on your bridge hand (since the size varies)..

I guess I just don't feel / see the difference so much, I'd have to have 2 shafts and do some testing at the table to be able to compare.

 

[slide13]

Thicker shaft = more end mass only necessarily holds true for solid wood shafts I beleive. Considering you need a shaft to be of a certain stiffness you can definitely achieve that with a lower end mass using larger hollow tubes (with a filler in the case of Revo).

I come from cycling and it's like when aluminum frames came to market. Tubes got massive in diameter compared to steel but because of the materials and wall thicknesses they were just as stiff or stiffer and much lighter.

Common wisdom such as bigger diameter is heavier can cease being true when completely new materials and methods are introduced.

 

[nfuids]

Thicker shaft = more end mass only necessarily holds true for solid wood shafts I beleive. Considering you need a shaft to be of a certain stiffness you can definitely achieve that with a lower end mass using larger hollow tubes (with a filler in the case of Revo).

I come from cycling and it's like when aluminum frames came to market. Tubes got massive in diameter compared to steel but because of the materials and wall thicknesses they were just as stiff or stiffer and much lighter.

Common wisdom such as bigger diameter is heavier can cease being true when completely new materials and methods are introduced.

Interesting! You mean a smaller carbon shaft would not be as stiff. So this 12.9mm might be a good compromise on weight and stifness!

Thanks