WX700 Mezz shaft
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i have a McDermott stick with G-Core shaft.
i was recently taught how to use BHE, the pivot point for this shaft
seems to be way back, around 18 inches
was thinking about Mezz with wx700
anyone know avg pivot point on this shaft? Thx
sry if wrong forum
at about 29cm, measured from the joint.
I dont think the pivot point means f**k all
I 100% agree with that statement. Brian.
i have a McDermott stick with G-Core shaft.
i was recently taught how to use BHE, the pivot point for this shaft
seems to be way back, around 18 inches
was thinking about Mezz with wx700
anyone know avg pivot point on this shaft? Thx
sry if wrong forum
That seems very far back for a G-core. Predator Z2 has a natural pivot point of 14.1 inches! Unless your G-core is at 10mm you are not measuring this right. You must be slow rolling, elevating or messing up the measurement somehow! There is simply no way a G-Core can have less deflection that a hollow 11.75 mm shaft, the G-core isn't even hollow, it has a freaking carbon tube inside it, for crying out loud. That isn't a hollow tube with nothing inside it, either, it has wood inside of it!. Carbon is actually heavier than maple, it's just that it is so strong that you can make tremendously strong structures that are mostly hollow. The predator Revo is a mostly hollow tube with foam inside. Not a wooden core! In this application (McDermott) the Carbon actually increases the weight! Compare that to a Predator Z2 which has a mostly hollow front end, and you'll see that the deflection measurement you made doesn't add up, AT ALL! G-core isn't even a proper ld shaft, IMO. It's only ld compared to McDermotts standard shafts, which have HUGE deflection. I'm guessing that the reduction in deflection that is actually there, mostly comes from the shorter ferrule and maybe taper differences (thinner towards the tip).
Anyway, the WX/WD 700 is a great playing shaft. I recommend it to anyone who likes a stiff hitting, yet lively shaft. If those are your preferences, I don't think you'll be disappointed. As to the pivot point, I'm not sure, don't have the cue handy right now.
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The natural pivot point on mine is 14.5 inches from the tip. Makes for a long bridge but BHE works like a dream.
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I hate to be the one to say it, but if you're any good at all, you won't need pivot english.
That is, pivot engilsh is useful for when you need english on a shot that's tight enough that you need to cancel out all squirt and hit it firmly enough that you don't have to worry about swerve. But really, if you've done your homework, you can figure out some other way to get position rather than hitting a firm english shot. Either adjust for the slight swerve, and/or manipulate the CB angle with with a drag/stun/draw/forcefollow.
I'v e owned the WX900. It was low-ish deflection, and is lower than the WX700. But if I'm going to trust in manipulating the hell out of the ball for difficult position, I'd trust an ultra-low deflection shaft over pivot english any day.
I'll be honest, a shot came up tonight where squirt was useful. A guy on my team had the 9 hanging in the top corner pocket but had hooked himself inside the point of the middle pocket. He called timeout for a coach, I knew he had a heavy solid maple shaft, and I told him to hit maximum right (parallel) english at medium pace. Lo and behold, the CB squited out away form the point of the middle pocket, then swerved back on line, and pocketed the 9.
I've seen advantages for using squirt with normal deflection shafts. I've seen a whole lot of use avoiding it with low deflection shafts. What I haven't seen is a consistent advantage trying to get a shaft that deflects enough to bother using pivot english on a regular basis.Mezz WX shafts hit beautifully but if you're selecting your shaft on a pivot-english basis, you need to rethink your game.
That is, pivot engilsh is useful for when you need english on a shot that's tight enough that you need to cancel out all squirt and hit it firmly enough that you don't have to worry about swerve. But really, if you've done your homework, you can figure out some other way to get position rather than hitting a firm english shot. Either adjust for the slight swerve, and/or manipulate the CB angle with with a drag/stun/draw/forcefollow.
I'v e owned the WX900. It was low-ish deflection, and is lower than the WX700. But if I'm going to trust in manipulating the hell out of the ball for difficult position, I'd trust an ultra-low deflection shaft over pivot english any day.
I'll be honest, a shot came up tonight where squirt was useful. A guy on my team had the 9 hanging in the top corner pocket but had hooked himself inside the point of the middle pocket. He called timeout for a coach, I knew he had a heavy solid maple shaft, and I told him to hit maximum right (parallel) english at medium pace. Lo and behold, the CB squited out away form the point of the middle pocket, then swerved back on line, and pocketed the 9.
I've seen advantages for using squirt with normal deflection shafts. I've seen a whole lot of use avoiding it with low deflection shafts. What I haven't seen is a consistent advantage trying to get a shaft that deflects enough to bother using pivot english on a regular basis.Mezz WX shafts hit beautifully but if you're selecting your shaft on a pivot-english basis, you need to rethink your game.
FHE, BHE, or parallel english all have their uses. Hell, there are folks on this forum who'll say if you're any good at all, you won't need any English or a LD shaft at all.
I agree, it shouldn't be the basis for selecting a shaft, but you sure should know how to use it.
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I have a Mezz WD700 and I love playing with it. To me, the deflection is a worlds away compared to the G-Core (after playing with it for months when I first started.)
Not for longer though, Jim Pierce is making me a bowling alley shaft for my new Bob Harris cue
Stick to your guns and fine a shaft that works for you.
Not for longer though, Jim Pierce is making me a bowling alley shaft for my new Bob Harris cue
Stick to your guns and fine a shaft that works for you.
i have a McDermott stick with G-Core shaft.
i was recently taught how to use BHE, the pivot point for this shaft
seems to be way back, around 18 inches
was thinking about Mezz with wx700
anyone know avg pivot point on this shaft? Thx
sry if wrong forum
There is the natural pivot point, and then there's the effective pivot point. A lot of posters really don't realize this concept.
Since you're presumably using the Aim and Pivot method to find your pivot point, the you're testing and determining the effective pivot point, which is longer than the natural pivot point.
Natural pivot point doesn't consider an object ball and spin-induced throw. Effective pivot point does.
Freddie <~~~ driving myself nuts
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yeah I'm just talking about the natural pivot point.
the point were you are shooting a 1-4' shot with
a med to fast speed where swerve is not a factor.
so you are saying the better the LD shaft (lower deflection)
the further back the natural pivot point will be?
if so,does this mean a non-LD shaft (pure maple) will have a
shorter pivot point?
thx
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I don't doubt that if your shaft has a consistent stiff deflection, you may be able to find uses for pivot english. But in the hundreds of pro matches I've watched, I just can't remember anybody ever using pivot english, even those who don't play LD. The catch-22 is that if you're far enough away and you need to be precise enough that you're going to try to cancel squirt and swerve, you're undoing that precision by shifting your stroking line off of your aiming line, especially if you don't shift your body onto the new stroking line as well since your stroke is not going to be as solid and that upsets your ability to predict CB behavior.
The other problem is that BHE must be hit hard to mitigate swerve, and most of the time that means you're.turning the CB loose without knowing exactly where it's going to land. One of my favorite Earl quotes from a match he was commentating, "Turnin' the cue ball lose is death, It's death!" Sure you can hit it softer by adding in FHE but that relies on just as much judgment to know how much to pivot as does using parallel english. Just as a matter of percentages, using an LD shaft and adjusting for parallel english, at least in my opinion, is going to yield far better control over exactly where the CB is going. Particularly if the shot can't be made without spin, it's a low percentage shot so you'd like to try to play it as a two way shot and landing safe is going to be easier if your eye and your cue are both pointed down the aiming line.
With an object ball, this would be the effective pivot point; without an object, this would be the natural pivot point. Effective pivot points are longer than the natural pivot points.
Yes and yes.
Search for Colin Colenso's backhand English video as well as Bob Jewett's FAQ on the Aim and Pivot Method to test for squirt characteristics.
Dr. Dave would have those links on his site.
Freddie
I've been using some combination of BHE, FHE and whatever else for as long as I can remember, and far longer than there was any information available for any of this. I'm self taught and just developed it naturally based on actually making balls. I never thought about it.
I think at Efren and Bustamante do it like this, so at least some pros do it. As long as the ball goes in the hole, I don't see how one method is right and the other wrong. I think if you get a LD shaft, though, you're kind of committing to a method because BHE doesn't work well. My game went to hell for the 2 weeks I switched to an LD shaft.
I think at Efren and Bustamante do it like this, so at least some pros do it. As long as the ball goes in the hole, I don't see how one method is right and the other wrong. I think if you get a LD shaft, though, you're kind of committing to a method because BHE doesn't work well. My game went to hell for the 2 weeks I switched to an LD shaft.
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That is the biggest shortfall of BHE. But with A decent LD shaft the actual displacement of the rear hand is much smaller.
I've also got an old Viking with a natural/effective pivot of about 7 inches. BHE is all but unusable with it due to the large back hand shift needed for even one tip of english.
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It's a good thing this subject has been beaten to death for over 15 years. I suppose everyone who have used this technique for those years, especially those that learned from to these boards via Hal Houle (BHE) and Bob Jewett (Aim and Pivot FAQ) and longer should turn their trophies and cash back in.
Nick Varner and Buddy Hall are pivoters. Neither of them call it backhand English.
How did we ever play this game at a decent level when we're just letting the cueball loose all over the table???
Freddie <~~~ loose balls
Slower cloth. Also there wasn't somebody waiting to come to the table with a Predator Z.
Like I said, pivot english has its uses and plenty of people instinctively use some combination of FHE/BHE. I'll use it if I have to hit through a narrow gap with spin where allowing the CB to squirt would cause me to foul.
So there's no knock intended for people who have perfected it and rely on it for the majority of their english, but for someone learning the game buying a shaft for how it hits BHE is a bit misguided, given the speed of modern cloth and the effectiveness of parallel english with an LD shaft. You have to combine FHE with BHE otherwise you're going to be smacking the CB way too hard to avoid swerve, and that just seems less reliable for someone building skills than adjusting for your shaft's deflection and CB swerve.
I would strongly suggest looking into BHE if you have a standard maple shaft with more than medium deflection. It is by far the most exact way to use english with these shafts, unless you like to aim your cue into open space, two ball withs away from the ball or at least on the complete opposite side of the object ball, which is what paralell english could mean on some shots.
Even if a shaft has a natural pivot length of, say 10 inches, you can use a 12 inch bridge on slower shots to "mitigate swerve" as you put it. You can actually get this down to a science, with marks on the shafts for every eventuality (if you are so inclined).
I feel that for me there is a point on the deflection curve, beyond which paralell english becomes very difficult to use, unless you are just slow rolling the ball. I don't like smacking long, hard spin shots in with a natural McDermott or Pechauer shaft with paralell, it's just too much guesswork for me, while with a Mezz or a Predator that is no factor.
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