handicaps from different regions

[Celophanewrap]

So Skippy....let your hair down....drink a beer ....dont sweat the small stuff.....except at tri cups or higher and just enjoy playing pool .

You really think Skippy has hair? (just kidding )

...anyways, I'm curious about something. Those of you that do, on occasion, complain about someone's S/L (I'm sure we all do from time to time),
what does it take to get you complain to the "higher-ups"?

There is a guy here, he has been a 6 ever since I started, and that was a long time ago. He used to love playing me because he always beat me when
I was a lower rated player. I hadn't seen him for several years and he was in for a pretty good shock when we played, to his surprise he no longer had
my number, in fact just the opposite. Now I'm playing him even and beating him 80% of the time. So one night we playing an even match and we are
both playing horrible. Now, he's one of those guys that hates to lose and isn't terribly pleasant when he does, but we had always been friendly. So after
the match that I had "eeked" out something like 5-4 in 60 innings, we shake hands and I tell him laughing, "geeze we were horrible tonight", he snorts
and throws my hand aside "ala Earl" and storms out. A couple of days later I get a call from the LO telling me that this guy is accusing me stalling. I had
to laugh, I've played him 100 times and he knows better than that. My LO says, "well, I just wanted to let you know. Maybe don't play him for a while until
he cools down" Too bad really, I really enjoyed playing him, he's an excellent shooter, but we all have bad nights.

So anyways, that's all it took for him to complain about someone he's played 100 times before and knew well.
Realize that people have good nights and then there are some nights that you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a frickin' boat. Even 2's and 3's have good nights,
there are just times when you can't miss, and if you do you leave your opponent in the worst possible place - there are times the pool gods just smile down on you.

So, what does it take for you to start to complain about someones S/L?

 

[justadub]

3 - 5.01 - 7 innings per game

Defensive shots get deducted from total innings at the end of the match. Timeouts have no impact on the rating.

I don't care what a player is rated at as long as it accurately reflects their ability. If the APA system says a 3 is between 5.01 and 7 innings then that is what I expect. Anyone can have a bad match or a great match at any given time. The APA allows for this by using the 10 best of your last 20, or 12 of your last 30. Which is great, that's a fair representation of a persons ability. Where it goes off the rails is the use of applied scoring. Making it very difficult for a player to go down.

When a player deserves to go up that's great. But when a player only has 2 or 3 matches that score out to the next level and applied scoring is responsible for the rest then that's a problem. That's where you see weak players and it's especially true at a S/L 7 where someone who runs 1 rack a session is rated the same as someone who runs 3 racks in a match.

Where did you get the figure of a SL3 averaging 5 to 7 innings from? The old leaked document from 15 years ago? I would be amazed if our 3's got close to that average, as a whole group. (We do play on 9-footers tho).

Hell, I'm a SL5 and I average 5 innings a game, I would think. Which is, of course, part of why I'm still a 5

 

[lorider]

You really think Skippy has hair? (just kidding )

...anyways, I'm curious about something. Those of you that do, on occasion, complain about someone's S/L (I'm sure we all do from time to time),
what does it take to get you complain to the "higher-ups"?

There is a guy here, he has been a 6 ever since I started, and that was a long time ago. He used to love playing me because he always beat me when
I was a lower rated player. I hadn't seen him for several years and he was in for a pretty good shock when we played, to his surprise he no longer had
my number, in fact just the opposite. Now I'm playing him even and beating him 80% of the time. So one night we playing an even match and we are
both playing horrible. Now, he's one of those guys that hates to lose and isn't terribly pleasant when he does, but we had always been friendly. So after
the match that I had "eeked" out something like 5-4 in 60 innings, we shake hands and I tell him laughing, "geeze we were horrible tonight", he snorts
and throws my hand aside "ala Earl" and storms out. A couple of days later I get a call from the LO telling me that this guy is accusing me stalling. I had
to laugh, I've played him 100 times and he knows better than that. My LO says, "well, I just wanted to let you know. Maybe don't play him for a while until
he cools down" Too bad really, I really enjoyed playing him, he's an excellent shooter, but we all have bad nights.

So anyways, that's all it took for him to complain about someone he's played 100 times before and knew well.
Realize that people have good nights and then there are some nights that you couldn't hit water if you fell out of a frickin' boat. Even 2's and 3's have good nights,
there are just times when you can't miss, and if you do you leave your opponent in the worst possible place - there are times the pool gods just smile down on you.

So, what does it take for you to start to complain about someones S/L?

I have to admit that I complained about a few people years ago. I complained because I could never beat them on my bed day....talking about same skill level here.

At the time I just did not realize they were just better than me even though we had the same handicap. Eventually every one that I had complained about was raised ...not because I complained....it was because they played well enough to be raised.

Once I realized that I quit complaining....until a few months ago. I joined a new division here and encountered a 2 who was obviously under handicapped. I txt my lo stating my opinion. He txt me back asking why I thought that.

I replied giving him specific shots I saw.....his stroke and bridge ...his decision making at the table..my lo txt me back and said he would observe saw I'd players next match. Well he was raised after his next match.

I have gotten to know my lo pretty good as we have played on a few teams together and he realizes I am not the type to complain about some ones handicap unless I have a good reason .


Another reason I never complain unless its obvious is because I am well aware of people can have good nights and bad nights. Heck I am the poster child for that.

By the way I have been complained about numerous times ..... To the lo ...to other people and even to my face. It use to bother me but now u just laugh I off .

 

[Skippy27]

You seem to enjoy apa about as much as i do but you also seem to get bent out of shape easily over rules ...or lack of such.

Probably not as much as you would think from my post. I typically let lower players slide on things and hold higher players to the standards they should be held to according to the rules.

We just had an incident last week that a new team in our division wanted to add a player and they didn't tell us until it was the time they threw the player up. She had been practicing right by us so we knew she was there the whole time, they just failed to tell us at the beginning per the rules. I personally wanted our team to let them play her and expressed that to our captain and co-captain that it is just shear poor sportsmanship to throw that up in their face and to make them forfeit a match at the end of the night when they are a new team. If they were one of the other teams we have been shooting with for a while we would have no issue. My own team has also done that when someone we were adding showed up unexpectedly after our match was already in a game or 2.

What goes around comes around for the most part and as I said, I am more lenient on lower players than higher players and I would expect the same from others on us.

Now related to this thread, everyone knew the player was a good player and would probably be a 7. The captain of the team he was put on probably knew it as well so that is what he should have started out as. Is there a rule that says he should have? I don't know and wont waste my time looking, but it was certainly the good sportsman thing to do.

 

[pogmothoin]

Where did you get the figure of a SL3 averaging 5 to 7 innings from? The old leaked document from 15 years ago? I would be amazed if our 3's got close to that average, as a whole group. (We do play on 9-footers tho).

Hell, I'm a SL5 and I average 5 innings a game, I would think. Which is, of course, part of why I'm still a 5

I don't have any official documents but what I do have is a database with over 1000 matches for players on my teams. So I know, not think, that in the ten best of my last 20 matches my average innings per match is 2.2588 innings with a 70% winning percentage. I'm a 6. I had a player go up to a 7 who had only 3 matches with scores under 2 innings so that did surprise me but he also had a 90% winning percentage.

I have players that basically play the same number of innings but are different skill levels in both 8 and 9 ball. It's seemingly very difficult to go down and the only way that that makes sense from a statistical standpoint is if the scores are modified. What that scheme is exactly I don't know.

 

[justadub]

I don't have any official documents but what I do have is a database with over 1000 matches for players on my teams. So I know, not think, that in the ten best of my last 20 matches my average innings per match is 2.2588 innings with a 70% winning percentage. I'm a 6. I had a player go up to a 7 who had only 3 matches with scores under 2 innings so that did surprise me but he also had a 90% winning percentage.

I have players that basically play the same number of innings but are different skill levels in both 8 and 9 ball. It's seemingly very difficult to go down and the only way that that makes sense from a statistical standpoint is if the scores are modified. What that scheme is exactly I don't know.

So again, your 3's average 5-7 innings per match? Are they far above the other 3's in your division? 7-footers or 9-footers?

I'm curious. I wish I could organize myself to collate all the data myself like you do.

 

[Skippy27]

I don't have any official documents but what I do have is a database with over 1000 matches for players on my teams. So I know, not think, that in the ten best of my last 20 matches my average innings per match is 2.2588 innings with a 70% winning percentage. I'm a 6. I had a player go up to a 7 who had only 3 matches with scores under 2 innings so that did surprise me but he also had a 90% winning percentage.

I have players that basically play the same number of innings but are different skill levels in both 8 and 9 ball. It's seemingly very difficult to go down and the only way that that makes sense from a statistical standpoint is if the scores are modified. What that scheme is exactly I don't know.

Well the conclusions you are trying to draw from your database are way off. I can assure you a 3 averages more than what you think they do.

 

[Celophanewrap]

I don't have any official documents but what I do have is a database with over 1000 matches for players on my teams. So I know, not think, that in the ten best of my last 20 matches my average innings per match is 2.2588 innings with a 70% winning percentage. I'm a 6. I had a player go up to a 7 who had only 3 matches with scores under 2 innings so that did surprise me but he also had a 90% winning percentage.

I have players that basically play the same number of innings but are different skill levels in both 8 and 9 ball. It's seemingly very difficult to go down and the only way that that makes sense from a statistical standpoint is if the scores are modified. What that scheme is exactly I don't know.

Well the conclusions you are trying to draw from your database are way off. I can assure you a 3 averages more than what you think they http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2660-King-St-Denver-CO-80211/13311560_zpid/do.

Here's an idea - what if you guys just played and let the LO and their staff worry about S/L's?
If someone is falling through the cracks, or if the LO is so crooked that they have to screw their shorts on,
is there anything you can really do about it?

Just play and stop worrying about stats and Joe Poolplayer and Steve Sandbagger, they'll always be there.
Control what you can, and that's how well you play, let the rest work itself out

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Well the conclusions you are trying to draw from your database are way off. I can assure you a 3 averages more than what you think they do.

Nope. He's right, you're wrong. 5.01-7 is exactly the range for a 3. This is after safes are deducted. And this is for the best 10 of the last 20 matches. All APA Handicaps are based on a 7 foot table. Adjustments are made if matches are played on larger tables. (Hence the boxes to check on the scoresheet for table size). It may *seem* how ever it seems. This is how it *is* however. I know this for a fact.

KMRUNOUT

 

[justadub]

Nope. He's right, you're wrong. 5.01-7 is exactly the range for a 3. This is after safes are deducted. And this is for the best 10 of the last 20 matches. All APA Handicaps are based on a 7 foot table. Adjustments are made if matches are played on larger tables. (Hence the boxes to check on the scoresheet for table size). It may *seem* how ever it seems. This is how it *is* however. I know this for a fact.

KMRUNOUT

Well, if you "know this for a fact", you obviously have inside knowledge or know someone who does. Or believes that they do, I suppose. Given this assumption, what is the adjustment for playing on a 9-foot table?

 

[Skippy27]

Nope. He's right, you're wrong. 5.01-7 is exactly the range for a 3. This is after safes are deducted. And this is for the best 10 of the last 20 matches. All APA Handicaps are based on a 7 foot table. Adjustments are made if matches are played on larger tables. (Hence the boxes to check on the scoresheet for table size). It may *seem* how ever it seems. This is how it *is* however. I know this for a fact.

KMRUNOUT

I did a little digging and assuming nothing has changed in a 10+ years, you are correct.

 

[bad_hit]

Skill levels can be a little off between areas for 3 reasons -

1) Bad scorekeeping/not marking defensive shots. This can be an issue with entire areas due to LOs not enforcing it well and others being diligent about it. Only 1 team needs to mark the defensive shots so you can't blame the team the player is on, the opposing team should at least be marking them.

2) Weak areas. This matters because win percentage is an integral part of the handicapping formula. A strong player from one area will dominate more in a weaker area and hence go up in skill level due to win percentage.

3) Some LOs are lax about player handicap complaints and some go overboard about them. Hence some players will be manually raised in some areas and others won't.

That explains why you sometimes have such a good "Vegas 5" vs your hometown 5. The handicapping formula is the same in every area, but this is why there are variances.

 

[Skippy27]

Skill levels can be a little off between areas for 3 reasons -

1) Bad scorekeeping/not marking defensive shots. This can be an issue with entire areas due to LOs not enforcing it well and others being diligent about it. Only 1 team needs to mark the defensive shots so you can't blame the team the player is on, the opposing team should at least be marking them.

2) Weak areas. This matters because win percentage is an integral part of the handicapping formula. A strong player from one area will dominate more in a weaker area and hence go up in skill level due to win percentage.

3) Some LOs are lax about player handicap complaints and some go overboard about them. Hence some players will be manually raised in some areas and others won't.

That explains why you sometimes have such a good "Vegas 5" vs your hometown 5. The handicapping formula is the same in every area, but this is why there are variances.

Based on what I just read on their handicapping I don't believe #2 would have too much of an affect long run since the win percentage only affects the applied scoring within that skill level group.

But without actually seeing it in action, I couldn't say for sure.

 

[lorider]

Update on my new 6 after league tonight..he told me he had played strictly on 9's in north Carolina. Due to ha ing more teams than bar tables available we rotate and play on 9's every 4-5 weeks and tonight was our turn. Mixed results from my player.

He lost 9 ball 25-23 in a 25-38 race..he is a 5 in 9 ball and his opponent was a 3

He fared batter in 8 ball against another 6 losing 5-4 in a 5-5 race by contrast I wound up.facing this same guy in 9 ball where he is a 7 and I won 38-40 in a 38-55 race.

Do you guys think I am being unrealistic to expect a 6 from another area to be at least as proficient in playing safe....shot making and cue ball control as I am and I am only a 5 ? I just have not been impressed with either 6 or a 5 from.other areas. The girl who is a 3/4 is a competitive 3 here but is a lil overated as a 4 in 9 ball

 

[Celophanewrap]

Do you guys think I am being unrealistic to expect a 6 from another area to be at least as proficient in playing safe....shot making and cue ball control as I am and I am only a 5 ? I just have not been impressed with either 6 or a 5 from.other areas. The girl who is a 3/4 is a competitive 3 here but is a lil overated as a 4 in 9 ball

Tough to say. I think you'd have to be familiar with the other area or know people there, or at least know someone that knows someone....
I think in general you'd expect a 6 to be able to play a safe but if he's a new to you player maybe defense has never been a part of his game and the thought of playing a safe is a completely foreign concept. How's the rest of his game?

 

[TwistedStix]

Tough to say. I think you'd have to be familiar with the other area or know people there, or at least know someone that knows someone....
I think in general you'd expect a 6 to be able to play a safe but if he's a new to you player maybe defense has never been a part of his game and the thought of playing a safe is a completely foreign concept. How's the rest of his game?

Id agree with this. I have a couple of players on my team that grew up playing in bars and it takes an act of congress to get them to shoot safe. They just dont look for it. Fantastic offensive game though.

As far as handicaps go,
I was in Vegas for 9 ball doubles in April and we played people from big cities and small, and we both thought that most people were ranked correctly. We are both SL 5

 

[lorider]

Tough to say. I think you'd have to be familiar with the other area or know people there, or at least know someone that knows someone....
I think in general you'd expect a 6 to be able to play a safe but if he's a new to you player maybe defense has never been a part of his game and the thought of playing a safe is a completely foreign concept. How's the rest of his game?

I think I found the answers I was looking for celo. All 4 new players are what you would call once a week recreational players compared to players from our area who play on average 4 nights a week.


Below are the life time stats for each new player and my thoughts on their skill level.

The 6/6 from Michigan who recently moved back there

8 ball ..90 matches ....59% lifetime win ....1.57 defense avg
9 ball...68 matches.....56% lifetime win......1.62 defense avg
Had pretty decent cue ball control but just could not hang with our local players. Only played 2 sessions and the Las session he had a 33% win I. 8 ball and 45% in 9 ball

5/5 from south Carolina
8 ball....41 matches....49% lifetime win.....0.00 defense avg
9 ball....104 matches...51% lifetime win...1.25 defense avg
Decent shot making...no semblance of cue ball control....defense is on par with mine in 9 ball and non existent in 8 ball. Gets annihilated by any 6 or above...like 18-2 annihilated.

6/5 from north Carolina
8 ball....216 matches ....55% lifetime win ....2.50 defense avg
9 ball....11 mat he's.......45% lifetime win.....2.00 defense avg
Like the above 6/6...cant hang with 6's from here.0-3 so far in 8 ball and 1-1 in 9 ball..won vs a 4 and lost vs a 3.good cue ball control....probably better than mine....defense is suspect though.....do t seem to get the cue bal exactly where he needs it. He stated he played entirely on 9 footers but he rattled more pockets Las nivht on one than I do and I only play on them once every 4-5 weeks..last night he came up to mw after his inn in at the table and said that was a defensive shot. I replied I already marked it and replied I paying attention lol.i have not seen that many defensive shots from him yet so I was surprised at his defense lifetime avg. Maybe they mark a defense over there every time you miss and leave your opponent hooked..i dunno . :grin:
I was quite surprised to only see a couple hundred lifetime matches sin e he told me he had been in apa 12 years.

Like I said earlier....these players just play once a week and just cant hang with people that play 4-5 nights a week.

 

[Skippy27]

Like I said earlier....these players just play once a week and just cant hang with people that play 4-5 nights a week.

I would think someone that shoots 4-5 times a week should certainly be better than one that shoots once a week. Even if just accidentally.

In 8 ball I have about 200 matches, about a 55% win percentage and average about 4 defensive shoots.

I assume by that def % they mean per match, which would probably be right. I can't imagine many decent players in the 5/6 SL range not averaging close to 4 def a match. I would imagine def % goes up and down on a bell curve as SL improves. 2-3's rarely do them without being coached into it , 4's start learning the importance, 5's still trying to master it, 6's too over confident to use them when they should, 7's just don't need them as much.

 

[lorider]

I would think someone that shoots 4-5 times a week should certainly be better than one that shoots once a week. Even if just accidentally.

In 8 ball I have about 200 matches, about a 55% win percentage and average about 4 defensive shoots.

I assume by that def % they mean per match, which would probably be right. I can't imagine many decent players in the 5/6 SL range not averaging close to 4 def a match. I would imagine def % goes up and down on a bell curve as SL improves. 2-3's rarely do them without being coached into it , 4's start learning the importance, 5's still trying to master it, 6's too over confident to use them when they should, 7's just don't need them as much.

Just checked my stats..

8 ball....670 matches....51% win record....1.82 defense avg

9 ball....462 matches...53 % win record....1.14 defense avg.

A ok le of notes concerning my stats.

1. Being a bar banger ally life it took a couple of years getting beat downs in high level tournaments by guys playing safes" that never played safes against me during regular session" to realize defense needed to be added to my game. So now I am the same way. I played 22 safes during my last match in last weeks tri cups...my opponent....also a 5 played 15.

2..the majority of my matches are against higher level players as I have usually been the bed player on my teams thus i throw myself against their best..

I continue to due that now even though I have this new 6/5 on my team because I played him a few racks when he joined my team and it was apparent he is not better than me.

Case in point. We play double jeapordy

His 1st match was 8 ball bs a 6. He lost 5-0. I played that same 6 9.ball and won 38-33.

His 2nd match was 8 ball vs a 6 and lost 5-2. I played that same 6 -9 ball and won 38-30

His last match was 8 ball bs a 6 and he lost hill-hill..much better game than his 1st 2 but it may be due to we played on gold crowns this time and he said that is all he had ever played on. O played the same opponent in 9 ball but this guy is a 7 in 9 ball I won 38-40

My 6 has played 2 9 ball games. Won again a 4 and lost 25-23 again a 3...on the 9 footer at that.

While my life time win is barely above 50% I think its pretty darn good record since almost every match has been against higher level players...oh yea.....those stats include approximately 50 matches in masters where I am way outclassed but do have a 25% win record by my estimate.

 

[lorider]

After last night i thought I would revisit this thread.


Since my last post I have acquired 4 players from other areas 2 of those are no longer with me due to one quiting and the other is expecting a baby.

The one that quit was a 6/5 from north Carolina and like the others I posted about was not very competitive with local players his skill level.

The one who is expecting was a 3/4 from Rhode island. Decent player for her skill level is all I can say. She had a better record in 8 ball but I thought she was a lil over rated in 9 ball.

I added a 5/5 from Pennsylvania this session. The worst player at his handicap out of all I have had. 1-4 in both 8 and 9 ball with both wins coming vs 3's.

Now the real reason I revisited this thread.

I am sitting at home yesterday killing time before going to league and my phone rings. It's from the girl who works the counter at the pool hall where I am playing that night.

She says she has a guy there that just moved to town and is looking to get on a team. I ask the pertinent questions ....is he a current apa player and what is his handicap. She replies yes he is and is a 5/4.

My first thought is I have not had any luck at all getting a player from another area who is competitive here at their handicap. My 2nd thought was how long could that streak last ? My 3rd thought was ....well.i do have 2 spots available.

So I told her I was gonna get with the lo and see if I could add him being the cutoff date was past for adding new players and get back to her in a few minutes. My lo says yea but reminds me this player and will not be eligible for playoffs or higher this session. I then called the pool hall back and told her to tell him I would add him and that I would be there in a couple hours.

I get there a half hour before league and he is waiting on me. We make small talk a while and I introduce him to everyone . A 5 who has been with me the longed rolls his eyes at the news of a new out of town player ...he knows our history with new players lol .

The other team throws a 4 out first in 9 ball so I say....lets see what this kid can do and throw him. I keep score and halfway through the first rack I am thinking....glory be ....hallelujah......yay ! ... Awesome....about friggin time I get a decent player.

I could tell right off bat .....he is methodical....deliberate...hits every shot at pocket speed or for position . Great psr and fundamentals for a 4 and better than some 5's I know. He goes on to win 15-5 in 18 innings. A little on the low side for most 4's but not exactly s/l 5 area.

Later I throw him blind in 8 ball. The opposing captain decides to throw himself. He is a pretty strong 6. I dont watch as I am busy playing 9 ball. Later looking at the score sheet I see he lost hill-hill in 22 innings with both players playing 5 safes apiece. That is right where I expect a good 5 to be and to say I was happy would be an understatement.

I asked if he wanted to join my Thursday 9 ball travel team. He replied sure. He said he loves to play pool.

Looks like I have a younger version of me .:thumbup: