Pool Room in Warehouse Space!

[realkingcobra]

I've seen warehouse space rooms since 1969. Not new.

The old 211 club in Seattle leased a taxi garage, black top floor and all. 15,000sqft' of that 1,500sqft' was an apartment....for $2,500 a month rent. With on street pay parking only until 6pm, I just don't know how John and Betty kept the doors open. Well, John sold the place to some suckers that came along and he retired....and within a year or so...the suckers were broke.

 

[Bank it]

Ok we have an 8 table room here....30k investment



How big a place do we really need would 2000 sq.ft do it?

3000-3500 would be ideal for your idea. 2000 is way cramped

 

[realkingcobra]

Ok as luck would have it we found our hypothetical place. Its 2600 sq ft. We have room for the tables and a place to throw a couple of couches and a coffee table a place for the attendant behind a small bar if he wants to operate those table top ovens and make a few sandwiches in them if we decide to do that later on to keep people playing pool. We still have 30k invested. 2600 and are getting it for $3 per square foot or $7800 a year/12= $650 a month.....the electric bill is another $350 average to heat and cool it so we have the monthly layout of $1000 a month.

This is our pool room. We are going to run it. We plan on working everyday and hiring someone maybe for evenings part time. Our part timer is going to work Friday night, Saturday and Saturday Night and Sunday. We get weekends off. Our operation is open at 2pm Saturday and 6pm on Sunday. Friday help works 6pm until 12pm=6hrs Saturday they work from 2pm until 12pm=10 hrs Sunday they work from 6pm until 10pm on Sunday =4 hrs Total part time worker hours= 20 hrs

20 hrs x $8 bucks and hour rounded.=$160.00 a week x 4=$640 a month

We also have to get paid. Before we can get paid we have to be able to pay 1000 a month plus the $640 a month for the part time help.=$1640 per month.

Now how much pool time do we have to sell in order just to meet the $1640?

$1640/3.50hr= 468.58 hrs a month just to meet the nut.

$468.58/4weeks= 118 hrs of pool time you need to sell each week just to meet the nut.

118 hrs / 7 days a week = 17 hrs of Pool time that needs to be sold each day to meet the nut.

You have 8 tables you need 16 people to come in and play a hour or so each day to meet the nut.

Now you have to get paid. For every thousand a month you want to get paid add.286 hours of pool time per month or 72 hours per week. or about 10/11 or so hours extra to the day.

To make the nut is 17 hrs of pool time sold per day
To make $1000 a month for yourself its now 27/28 hrs per day
To make $2000 a month for yourself its not 38/39 hrs of pool time per day.

To get 38/39 hrs of pool time sold a day and you have to be open for lunch and close at 10 pm. So youre working 10hr per day at the very least.

You get 5 to 8 people during the day and they play 2 hrs=16hrs sold
You get 10/12 people in at night they all play 2hrs=24 hrs sold
You sold a grand total of 40 hrs of pool time which puts you right on track to make $2000 a month for yourself this includes the cost of a part time worker for 20hrs and you get to tip a few cues, sell a few sandwiches and drinks and you have a very nice neighborhood pool room.

You also get to work 10 hrs a day Monday through Thursday and 6hrs on Friday and then go home and also do paperwork if you dont do it at the pool room where you also have to have wifi that adds to your expense.

You had better hope your hired help doesnt steal. You had better hope you can get the floor space for $3 a square foot and the rent doesn't go up. You had better hope you can keep the place reptutable and youre private club so you can ask people to leave if you dont like the atmosphere they create.

This is an old timey pool room.

Its time for the Pool Room an Alcohol go to separate ways because the pool tables can't support the kind of square footage cost requirements that you have to pay to have a pool table in a space with higher rates. They can barely afford $3 dollars a square foot. Can you live on 2 thousand gross a month?. A retired guy might can. Question is......Can you sell 40 hrs of Pool time each day?.

Unless you're figuring on doing the service on your 8 tables in house, you kind of missed the $330 or so a month that needs to be set aside to maintain your pool tables....as the condition of the pool tables.....are the first sign the pool room owner is in deep shit with bills....or a personal problem.

 

[Steve Dickey]

Robin,
The rent at $3/sq foot is not for the year, but rather the month. $2600x3=$7800 a month not, $650 a month.
Frequently when these things come up I'm reminded of a friend who just got his MBA and started a Mom and Pop business out of 1000 sf. After he went under, he said it was like nothing he was taught in school.
Many small businesses are undercapitalized and unable to withstand the initial start up costs and recoup their initial investment. An accurate projection with plenty of cushion is, IMHO a good idea, and I feel at $2000 a month of projected income, your overhead and unexpected expenses can run over you in a hurry.
Best of luck, Steve

 

[336Robin]

Youre way off

Steve,
I know what Im pricing here. Warehouse space not strip mall, or even store front, warehouse. In my area you can get store fronts for $10 per square per year in places and much higher in foot traffic areas. Im not starting a pool room. Im talking about a model that actually works for keeping one open.

People have so many ideas but no reality of what the costs are which is the point for the thread. They think tournaments and leagues are the answer. Maybe in a sports bar situation maybe. But if people arent paying pool time what good are they to a business?

If alcohol is detrimental to growing pool then why have it?

At some point pool cant pay for the cost of the square footage that a bar must have in order to operate.

So what Im saying is its time for Pool and Alcohol to get a divorce and Pool to move to warehouses preferably owned by several who dont mind working a day to two a week. A neighborhood spot, not necessarily a place for one person to make a living.

Robin,
The rent at $3/sq foot is not for the year, but rather the month. $2600x3=$7800 a month not, $650 a month.
Frequently when these things come up I'm reminded of a friend who just got his MBA and started a Mom and Pop business out of 1000 sf. After he went under, he said it was like nothing he was taught in school.
Many small businesses are undercapitalized and unable to withstand the initial start up costs and recoup their initial investment. An accurate projection with plenty of cushion is, IMHO a good idea, and I feel at $2000 a month of projected income, your overhead and unexpected expenses can run over you in a hurry.
Best of luck, Steve

 

[336Robin]

True

Unless you're figuring on doing the service on your 8 tables in house, you kind of missed the $330 or so a month that needs to be set aside to maintain your pool tables....as the condition of the pool tables.....are the first sign the pool room owner is in deep shit with bills....or a personal problem.

Glenn,
Youre absolutely right, just another expense that people dont seem to think about when owning a room which is the point of the post.

My opinion is there is a way to have a pool place, its just not the same model that most think it should be. Covering expenses would add 95 hrs more pool time per month to these totals. You either do it yourself or you have it done professionally and dont let people play who mistreat equipment. I prefer the latter but first you must lay down the rules and expectations and hope you can get new people to come in and play. Selling 40 hrs plus a day in most of these small towns is going to be really hard.

 

[lorider]

I am not going to say leagues are the answer but they darn sure help.keep the doors open.

I am going to tell you the tale of three pool halls in my area.

One closed a few years ago. He did not cater to leagues or the younger crowd. He relied almost strictly on " serous" pool players and as a result went out if business.

Some will know the name of the next pool hall I mention. He provides something for every one . I mean he caters to every type of pool player. He has several ongoing money leagues. In house on both 9 footers and bar tables. Traveling money league. In house and traveling apa leagues. A weekly 9 ball tournament on 9 footers. Held in house Napa league before it folded. Holds open 9 ball tournaments occasionally.

It is the only pool hall ...or venue that gives free table time for 2 hours before league starts and open them back up after league is over until closing time. He also hands out a roll of quarters for every team that plays on bar tables. He has some 9 footers reserved strictly for one pocket. I have seen him rope off an area during action matches so the players are not disturbed but he really caters to league players more than any of the other pool halls.

As a result Sunday night league grew from 6 teams a few years ago to 18 teams currently ....taking up all of the 12 bar tables and a few 9 footers also. You have 8 masters... 8 scotch doubles and18 double jeapordy teams all playing on Sundays along with various other leagues almost every night of the week.

This has allowed him to add 2 diamond 9 footers and a diamond bar table to go along with the 14 gold crowns and 12 valleys he had.

It also allowed him to hop several pro tournaments and bring in big truck to stream them. He has also sponsored pro players in various tournaments around the country. I hardly think he could afford to do all that without the revenue generated from all the league players who frequent his establishment.

The 3 rd pool hall has a couple of spa travel leagues playing out of it and an inhouse money league. The owner asked me a few sessions ago if I was willing to add a travel team to pls out of his establishment which I did. He asked our apa league operator about starting an in house league this session which he did and I moved one of my teams to his establishment also in order to help him out. He apparently realizes league players will help keep the doors open also.

 

[Scott Lee]

Robin...Your commercial rent is a pipedream. You couldn't build it for $3/sq. ft., so there's no way you're gonna rent for $3/ft. Cheap commercial rent would be $10-$20/sq. ft....easily 4-5x what you projected.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ok as luck would have it we found our hypothetical place. Its 2600 sq ft. We have room for the tables and a place to throw a couple of couches and a coffee table a place for the attendant behind a small bar if he wants to operate those table top ovens and make a few sandwiches in them if we decide to do that later on to keep people playing pool. We still have 30k invested. 2600 and are getting it for $3 per square foot or $7800 a year/12= $650 a month.....the electric bill is another $350 average to heat and cool it so we have the monthly layout of $1000 a month.

This is our pool room. We are going to run it. We plan on working everyday and hiring someone maybe for evenings part time. Our part timer is going to work Friday night, Saturday and Saturday Night and Sunday. We get weekends off. Our operation is open at 2pm Saturday and 6pm on Sunday. Friday help works 6pm until 12pm=6hrs Saturday they work from 2pm until 12pm=10 hrs Sunday they work from 6pm until 10pm on Sunday =4 hrs Total part time worker hours= 20 hrs

20 hrs x $8 bucks and hour rounded.=$160.00 a week x 4=$640 a month

We also have to get paid. Before we can get paid we have to be able to pay 1000 a month plus the $640 a month for the part time help.=$1640 per month.

Now how much pool time do we have to sell in order just to meet the $1640?

$1640/3.50hr= 468.58 hrs a month just to meet the nut.

$468.58/4weeks= 118 hrs of pool time you need to sell each week just to meet the nut.

118 hrs / 7 days a week = 17 hrs of Pool time that needs to be sold each day to meet the nut.

You have 8 tables you need 16 people to come in and play a hour or so each day to meet the nut.

Now you have to get paid. For every thousand a month you want to get paid add.286 hours of pool time per month or 72 hours per week. or about 10/11 or so hours extra to the day.

To make the nut is 17 hrs of pool time sold per day
To make $1000 a month for yourself its now 27/28 hrs per day
To make $2000 a month for yourself its not 38/39 hrs of pool time per day.

To get 38/39 hrs of pool time sold a day and you have to be open for lunch and close at 10 pm. So youre working 10hr per day at the very least.

You get 5 to 8 people during the day and they play 2 hrs=16hrs sold
You get 10/12 people in at night they all play 2hrs=24 hrs sold
You sold a grand total of 40 hrs of pool time which puts you right on track to make $2000 a month for yourself this includes the cost of a part time worker for 20hrs and you get to tip a few cues, sell a few sandwiches and drinks and you have a very nice neighborhood pool room.

You also get to work 10 hrs a day Monday through Thursday and 6hrs on Friday and then go home and also do paperwork if you dont do it at the pool room where you also have to have wifi that adds to your expense.

You had better hope your hired help doesnt steal. You had better hope you can get the floor space for $3 a square foot and the rent doesn't go up. You had better hope you can keep the place reptutable and youre private club so you can ask people to leave if you dont like the atmosphere they create.

This is an old timey pool room.

Its time for the Pool Room an Alcohol go to separate ways because the pool tables can't support the kind of square footage cost requirements that you have to pay to have a pool table in a space with higher rates. They can barely afford $3 dollars a square foot. Can you live on 2 thousand gross a month?. A retired guy might can. Question is......Can you sell 40 hrs of Pool time each day?.

 

[realkingcobra]

Robin...Your commercial rent is a pipedream. You couldn't build it for $3/sq. ft., so there's no way you're gonna rent for $3/ft. Cheap commercial rent would be $10-$20/sq. ft....easily 4-5x what you projected.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Ummmmm....don't be to sure about that, I have 3,000sqft for $1,500 a month now as it is, that equates to $6.00 a sqft' per year.

 

[lorider]

I put this up just as an example to show just a little closer of what actual cost are.

You can sell or not sell a lot of things, make all kinds of little changes here and there but the truth of the matter you can make it, without alcohol but youre going to be working a lot because you really cant trust help unless its your brother or a retired buddy who does it more for a hangout place.

Pool can make it on its own but it has to seek the appropriate venue then you had better keep the place clean, neat and no extranneous crap going on that deters customers, etc.

I think this might be a business for some retired guys to do maybe a lot of them everyone have a night they work the pool room or something like that because the money just isnt the biggest concern. It could be a part time business for several owners who want have something part time to do. I think thats the best scenario. If you get trouble in you say ok closing time and you close up or run folks out. You take the profits every month and divide it up amongst the owners and call it a part time gig.

This is a vision I had years ago sort of a community place/hangout where kids might even can do homework, see community college posters, military sign up posters a community outreach sort of place with a decent reputation. Where a Dad can bring his kid into hit a few in the evening without thugs in the room.

Pool Leagues really have no place here. People need to be paying pool time.

Tournaments arent a thing much either. They dont sell food much, the place relys on table time. You can run the occasional tournament but I think maybe a progressive one where the people involved sign up for a competition and everyone pays table time and you give out trophys, ribbons or the list goes on the wall.

The key in this place and every other place I think has a chance is used equipment, taken care of reasonable table time, and no giveaways.

No tournaments like we think of them, no leagues unless they pay table time for their match. Businesses have to make money. If you keep a neat clean place with a set of rules and no destroying tables, no loud noise or raising hell in there. You might be surprised that you might get to where you sell 40 hrs a day but thats a lot of business in my opinion but retired guys need something to do. You might sell them a pool package to control their costs. Especially when I see the pool league crowd come in once a week for pool league which is free and thats it. It would be easier to market to other people and get them interested than to try and get some of the current pool demographic to pay something to play pool.

Something like this done in conjunction with a senior citizens center and marketed to all of the seniors in the area might get some business during the day. Just my opinions though.....40 hrs of pool time a day.....thats a lot of pool being played compared to what Ive seen in this sized town used for this example.

If the future of Pool is kids, then the Alcohol goes in direct opposition of that. Parents dont want their kids hanging out at a place that serves Alcohol. They want to know their kids are being supervised and they want to hear from you if they act up.

Why are you saying your hypothetical room has no place for leagues? no league around here plays for free.. We do have one place that offers free practice before and after league......rad my long winded post # 47 and see his results from catering to leagues

 

[Bank it]

Why are you saying your hypothetical room has no place for leagues? no league around here plays for free.. We do have one place that offers free practice before and after league......rad my long winded post # 47 and see his results from catering to leagues

Leagues are a plague

 

[336Robin]

No leagues here pay

Why are you saying your hypothetical room has no place for leagues? no league around here plays for free.. We do have one place that offers free practice before and after league......rad my long winded post # 47 and see his results from catering to leagues

No leagues around here pay anything to play. Therefore they aren't important to keeping a room open that doesn't offer food and alcohol and even then most of them eat where ever they want instead of bringing the business to the room. So really what is the effect of not having them? The expense of adding Alcohol and Food to the equation is way out of proportion and this is not the kind of place I'm talking about hypothetically opening.

 

[336Robin]

Size Matters

Robin...Your commercial rent is a pipedream. You couldn't build it for $3/sq. ft., so there's no way you're gonna rent for $3/ft. Cheap commercial rent would be $10-$20/sq. ft....easily 4-5x what you projected.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Perhaps you are right but I already know of Warehouse space going for $5 per square around here and there are plenty of places empty due to the fact the manufacturing needs no real space. I know a guy who found him a spot at $3 a square but he has a lot of space. The smaller you get the more likely you might have to go up to $5 but this is a hypothetical Pool Room.

The point of the post is to introduce the reality into what is really paying the bills and this crazy dance Pool is doing with Alcohol is the very thing that is keeping the sport exactly where it is and worse.

Good people who want their kids to have a wholesome environment aren't going to let their children go into a bar. If kids aren't allowed in a bar then maybe Pool is marketing to the wrong demographic, which I've been saying for years. You have no chance of getting a scholastic environment for Pool with Beer and Low Lifes in the Room. If you don't have that element then you have a chance to develop your crowd. The minute your place becomes a gambling hall and thats the purpose of your place and those types start hanging out there, you've already lost control plus they aren't going to make a business make it. They are going to run locals off unless they are very quite about it, which you must insist on.

The minute they start making your place a low dive, you dive too.

Plus we haven't introduced the idea that we need to pay ourselves back for the 30k we spent on the business.

So add in your expenses for keeping up the tables and then add in another equal payment of $330 a month on your loan and you add nearly 200 hours of more pool time you need to sell at a place that youre only paying $3 per square foot to rent if you can find it!

If Pool cant survive at $3 per square foot.....if players have no money....if leagues pay no fees.....if they dont even eat food in your place......if pool is so out of favor that people won't play......wtf.....I guess the idea of warehouse space is out too. You would be way ahead to put one in your garage and stop the idea that pool can ever pay for itself.

If this trend continues then Pool Leagues won't be able to find hosts and they are going to be forced in the Pool Warehouse business to keep things going and how long do you think thats going to last?

 

[lorider]

Leagues are a plague

You sir.....and other narrow minded people like you are part of the problem of why pool is where it I today.

 

[gxman]

Hard to survive without the sale of alcohol. Then getting a license for it is difficult too.

 

[captainjko]

I think the biggest part to this is location. Bigger cities have many people to come to their room. Therefore, they are not depending on the same 300-500 people every week to keep the room a float. They can have 10,000 different people every week. The part about kids and having a good environment thing, is not going to make it last either... Most kids are not going to take care of the equipment... Therefore, more expense.

 

[philly]

I think the biggest part to this is location. Bigger cities have many people to come to their room. Therefore, they are not depending on the same 300-500 people every week to keep the room a float. They can have 10,000 different people every week. The part about kids and having a good environment thing, is not going to make it last either... Most kids are not going to take care of the equipment... Therefore, more expense.

Interesting you should say that. I agree. Philadelphia and New York have thriving pool scenes on 9 footers. I am sure the West Coast is similar. Population density is key. However, Fargo Billiards in North Dakota with a sparse population is thriving. I play out of a poolroom in the exurbs of Philly that is doing well and they do not serve food or booze. Go figure.

 

[Texas Carom Club]

I think the biggest part to this is location. Bigger cities have many people to come to their room. Therefore, they are not depending on the same 300-500 people every week to keep the room a float. They can have 10,000 different people every week. The part about kids and having a good environment thing, is not going to make it last either... Most kids are not going to take care of the equipment... Therefore, more expense.

10,000?
probably dcc
but a week, at a pool hall seem like a stretch

 

[lorider]

No leagues around here pay anything to play. Therefore they aren't important to keeping a room open that doesn't offer food and alcohol and even then most of them eat where ever they want instead of bringing the business to the room. So really what is the effect of not having them? The expense of adding Alcohol and Food to the equation is way out of proportion and this is not the kind of place I'm talking about hypothetically opening.

You just answered your own question on the why a pool can't survive in your area. How can a business survive if people are not willing to pay for services rendered ?

I played my Scotch doubles league last night and just figured up what we spent on table time alone. Total was 31.00 for both teams at .75 a rack. There are 12 teams in this division so about 31.00 times 6 equals 186.00 table time night from our league last night. I along with one team mate and 3 players from the other team also ate . My tab was 11.00 and I figured up close to what I saw other people eating and would guess the total was around 46.00. So the total spent on just mine and the other team was 77.00. I am not gonna guess what the total for the other 10 teams were but I did see quite a few eat and saw a couple of buckets of beer floating around.

I would venture to say the other teams conservatively spent the 10.00 a team which would be another 100.00 .

So you see....league players that pay for services rendered do add up quickly .i happened to look around last night and I saw only 2 9 foot tables and 1 bar table empty.

So roughly a lil over 300.00 last night from 12 four man teams. Not counting that darn near every table in the place was busy.

Imagine the revenue generated on Sundays by 8 scotch double teams ....8 masters teams..and 18 double jeapordy teams.

It's obvious why a room owner here can afford to promote pro pool from the revenue generated by league players who pay for services rendered while places where pool players in your area expect something for nothing and consequently rooms close.

 

[336Robin]

Youre right

You just answered your own question on the why a pool can't survive in your area. How can a business survive if people are not willing to pay for services rendered ?

I played my Scotch doubles league last night and just figured up what we spent on table time alone. Total was 31.00 for both teams at .75 a rack. There are 12 teams in this division so about 31.00 times 6 equals 186.00 table time night from our league last night. I along with one team mate and 3 players from the other team also ate . My tab was 11.00 and I figured up close to what I saw other people eating and would guess the total was around 46.00. So the total spent on just mine and the other team was 77.00. I am not gonna guess what the total for the other 10 teams were but I did see quite a few eat and saw a couple of buckets of beer floating around.

I would venture to say the other teams conservatively spent the 10.00 a team which would be another 100.00 .

So you see....league players that pay for services rendered do add up quickly .i happened to look around last night and I saw only 2 9 foot tables and 1 bar table empty.

So roughly a lil over 300.00 last night from 12 four man teams. Not counting that darn near every table in the place was busy.

Imagine the revenue generated on Sundays by 8 scotch double teams ....8 masters teams..and 18 double jeapordy teams.

It's obvious why a room owner here can afford to promote pro pool from the revenue generated by league players who pay for services rendered while places where pool players in your area expect something for nothing and consequently rooms close.

Yeah thats right. Do you play on 7fts with coin slots or on 9fts?