Running before you can walk, going "too" advanced in your goals???

Gio Sr. said:
Hmm no offense, but in reading your responses to the posters advice reminds me of an old expression, "You can't put anything in a full basket"
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LOL, piece of advice for you.... if u have to start anything with "no offense" to anyone, then u prob shouldnt say anything. If you have something useful to say about pool like most of these people here, I am all ears.


Mkindsv said:
Start with a stroke drill, do this until you are confident you can hit the cue ball straight...then each time you go, set up an easy straight in shot(use top center and bottom on the straight in shot) or slight cut shot and shoot it 50 or 60 times using all kinds of different english, I use 5 shots from each: Top, Center, Bottom, Top left, left, bottom left, bottom right, right, top right...takes about 10 minutes to get through one ball pocketing location, if you have half an hour do three or four...Tor Lowry's videos are invaluable, and his stroke drill is super easy...put a ball on the spot and shoot it into one of the further away corner pockets, follow through 4-6 inches....cannot strees the importance of a good stroke enough. Good luck to you, hope you love pool for years to come.
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I dont think I have seen Tor's, I'll check it out... if my shoulder feels better this Tuesday after the matches, I'll stay after and do these... thanks!
 
If you just want to get better than you will get a little better slowly through playing more balls. If you are prepared to get better through learning then you will get much better either quickly or slowly both at the table and away from it. How you do this depends on who you are, your background, whether you learn better by yourself or by watching/listening to/being bullied by others, your inclination, what you want from the game and many other factors.

I learn best by "running before I can walk", going forwards quickly, taking a few steps back and then plateauing out at the high point. And then the same cycle again and again. It has its frustrations but it works for me. It might work for you and it might not. Another way might be better. As for the advice of "4"s - you should listen to both (and all) of them. If they are better players than you then they have something to offer (even if they have leaks ingrained into their games). Also, you should never forget that players that are weaker than you might also have solid advice because they might be stronger in some, albeit small, ways. Some pro snooker players have weaknesses that some recreational pool league players don't have.

If you are prepared to work to get better then you will. If you are prepared to enjoy that work then the world's your oyster.
 
Swighey said:
If you just want to get better than you will get a little better slowly through playing more balls. If you are prepared to get better through learning then you will get much better either quickly or slowly both at the table and away from it. How you do this depends on who you are, your background, whether you learn better by yourself or by watching/listening to/being bullied by others, your inclination, what you want from the game and many other factors.

I learn best by "running before I can walk", going forwards quickly, taking a few steps back and then plateauing out at the high point. And then the same cycle again and again. It has its frustrations but it works for me. It might work for you and it might not. Another way might be better. As for the advice of "4"s - you should listen to both (and all) of them. If they are better players than you then they have something to offer (even if they have leaks ingrained into their games). Also, you should never forget that players that are weaker than you might also have solid advice because they might be stronger in some, albeit small, ways. Some pro snooker players have weaknesses that some recreational pool league players don't have.

If you are prepared to work to get better then you will. If you are prepared to enjoy that work then the world's your oyster.
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Good stuff man, everything makes sense... I'm like you, I run and then figure it out. In this case, the "walking" is just getting more reps in to hit the ball straighter and more accurately, and that just isnt in my life yet even though it would be nice. But speed control and imagination I have in droves so hence, my play style.

And ya I listen to everyone, and know the value of all opinions, but I do pick and choose to fit me. I just get frustrated when people tell me one thing and then they contradict that advice with something else 30 seconds later, drives me nuts.
 
JMASTERJ said:
I actually did take a couple, asking a golf pro that is like asking a pool player do you have your own cue LOL. I guess I was a bit shy on posting that video but I guess I should... I didnt see any other video form posts here so I thought it would be weird, but no?
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Post some links to your video(s) in this thread. Nothing weird about it. IMO there's nothing better than video feedback. If people here have a better understanding of how you play, they might be able to help you improve on some things a bit more quickly. Of course just doing the repetitions and getting muscle memory might be all you need at this point, but it doesn't hurt to provide video.

You've got nothing to lose, anyway.
 
If you are a 2 then your #1 problem is probably ball making, not position play. If you can't make a ball fairly consistently when it is only a diamond or 2 diamonds from the cue ball anywhere on the table then you need to worry about that and not where you are leaving the cue ball.

Just work on your stroke and your basic ball making because until those 2 things are in pretty good order you will never be able to position the ball well as you will never be working with a known tangent line to begin with which is the very basis of position play.

Do that and then the rest of the knowledge you have accumulated will begin to fall right into place.

And I would agree that it is a rare case that you would want to put a BIH down in a straight line of your object ball. Put it at an angle unless there is an absolute reason to put it straight on.
 
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If you truly have an understanding of an 8, but shoot like a 2 then you should take the advice given you here, which is work on your stroke and stance, and do some drills. You will be a great player. Although every person here who has given that advice you have thrown out an excuse as to why you can't or won't but repeatedly said you are all ears. What you want is someone to tell you a magic trick to get better. The closest thing to a magic trick is to really work on your stroke and stance and go to fundamentals.

The thing is I HIGHLY doubt you have the mind for pool of an SL8 because you watched a bunch of pro matches. You have such a very little understanding at what the ball does because you have no actual experience. That stuff isn't hardwired into your brain yet. I would be willing to bet you'd be hard pressed to describe a pattern and what English you needed to achieve your positions. I won't say it is impossible but it is highly unlikely to the point that I'd have to see it to believe it. I'd like to see a uncut video of you playing, and have you tell us what English you are using on each shot, and where you think the ball will end up. It will have the added bonus of giving us much more to work with in terms of giving you advice on how to progress. Although I strongly suspect the advice will be to work on your stroke, stance, and hitting the cue ball in the center. Not to use left or right english because you don't actually understand it yet.

If you can't hit a ball in the pocket accurately, then you can't hit an english shot accurately, and therefore you likely have little idea of how it affects your shots, and how you need to use it.

The biggest problem I see with many new players is often ego, and you seem to have it in spades. It is super easy to talk a big game watching others play, and then actually be shit on the table. It happens a lot. The worst part is that they don't usually want any advice on how they can improve their game, despite actually saying the words. They usually discard good advice given to them by better players or come up with excuses why they can't do that. It takes a strong desire to learn the game (not just say it), and an ego that allows you to admit to yourself you aren't as good as you think you are.

I learn a ton from watching games of all skill rankings. Sometimes they are long inning, and tedious, but there are lots of ways to play and I usually can find a takeaway from most matches. For you to say you don't enjoy it is telling.

You don't know what you don't know. You will find that going back to your fundamentals is a constant as you learn to play pool. Each time you do it, you will have more experience which will guide you in knowing what you need to work on.

Yes, your teamates are correct in their advice to you. All of it is right at different times. However, you get bad advice in pool all the time, and knowing when to disregard it or take the advice is also something you learn. You are a very new player. I suggest you task some advice you are getting and gain from some experience with it before you disregard it.

This may sound harsh but from your responses here, it seems to me that you are your own biggest obstacle and your ego is a huge part of that.
 
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Although you may know the correct shot to play, for match play you need to execute the shot that is right for you and your skill set. I would not stop thinking about position play since that is a really bad habit that will be hard to break later on. But you also don't want to be taking on shots that are low percentage for your skill level during your matches.

For example, I consider myself to be terrible with the rest (bridge) while playing snooker, so anything beyond a simple follow, stop or basic draw shot is out of the question. I know that the pros might force follow the cue ball four rails or whatever to their intended position, but I'll just take the points and play safe to control the table. I'll practice that shot later, but I won't take it on until it's a shot that is in my bag of tricks.

It's a good thing the to push the boat out too far in practice however, since attempting things beyond your skill set is what helps you improve.
 
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Cameron Smith said:
Although you may know the correct shot to play, for match play you need to execute the shot that is right for you and your skill set. I would not stop thinking about position play since that is a really bad habit that will be hard to break later on. But you also don't want to be taking on shots that are low percentage for your skill level during your matches.

For example, I consider myself to be terrible with the rest (bridge) while playing snooker, so anything beyond a simple follow, stop or basic draw shot is out of the question. I know that the pros might force follow the cue ball four rails or whatever to their intended position, but I'll just take the points and play safe to control the table. I'll practice that shot later, but I won't take it on until it's a shot that is in my bag of tricks.

It's a good thing the to push the boat out too far in practice however, since attempting things beyond your skill set is what helps you improve.
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The only time the coach/director of our team usually calls timeout or stops me is when I have just one ball left in a really close match because they dont want me distracted by the leave and also because I have told them to do that. To me, striking the cue ball to pocket it and the leave are like a package deal, and I would have to actually think about pulling those apart to only focus on hitting the ball in. I guess for me it hurts way more to scratch or have no shot on the next ball than execute a "proper" shot... maybe I should just get over that? Not sure if anyone else has felt like this... maybe I am a severe outlier and should work on that first. I agree pushing the boat is the way to improve and I also see your point in percentages, which I do try take into consideration being a lover of math and science... cheers.
 
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I read over the thread today and all I can say at this point is without actual table time you will never improve.

There is a huge difference between practice and playing. If your only going to play for an hour a week and that is when your at your league that is not practice that is playing time. You will improve but it will be a very long time before you advance. The team captain will love having low ranked players for a long time.

Like I probably mentioned in my previous posting you should check out the Tor videos https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tor+lowry

Work on your fundamentals. Try your best to make every shot. If you have the cue ball control you said then you should be able to leave the cue ball anywhere on the table you choose. That is where the ego comes in. It takes a lot of practice to learn to control the cue ball. It is not all ball speed. It is angle of the tip to the cue ball, follow through, ball and cue speed, motion of the cue, stance, angle of cue ball to object ball contact, etc... Remember that league play is nothing but team based entertainment competition. Many people in league only play to enjoy time with friends at the bar and drink. Pool itself may mean very little to them. There are others in league that may take pool very seriously.

While leagues may call getting advice from a better player coaching that better player probably should not be called a coach or instructor out of respect to those who actually coach or instruct pool players for a living.

There are literally hundred of threads on this board about how to improve an individuals skill set. There are thousands of videos, books, instructors, references available online both free and for sale. None of those things will teach you to play pool without you actually putting in the table time.
 
Table time to yourself. Set up shots and watch what the balls do when hitting high or low on the cueball. Straight ins, slight cuts, larger cuts. Watch how the cueball reacts off the rail. Learn to make the ball consistently when not hitting the center of the cueball.

Once you get a good understanding of that, add left or right english to the mix. Watch how the cue ball reacts off the rails with the spin after striking the OB. Learn how to make the ball consistently when hitting with left or right.

See my disclaimer...
 
This is exactly what was argued about in the "spin" thread a few weeks back.A 2 who can't deliver a straight stroke is hindered in progress by spinning the ball until the stroke straightens out..
 
JMASTERJ said:
The only time the coach/director of our team usually calls timeout or stops me is when I have just one ball left in a really close match because they dont want me distracted by the leave and also because I have told them to do that. To me, striking the cue ball to pocket it and the leave are like a package deal, and I would have to actually think about pulling those apart to only focus on hitting the ball in. I guess for me it hurts way more to scratch or have no shot on the next ball than execute a "proper" shot... maybe I should just get over that? Not sure if anyone else has felt like this... maybe I am a severe outlier and should work on that first. I agree pushing the boat is the way to improve and I also see your point in percentages, which I do try take into consideration being a lover of math and science... cheers.
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You are correct it is a package deal. It's a good habit to think of it all as part of one shot. I wouldn't not think about the position on the final ball, most good players I've known suggest that you still play for a 'position' when pocketing the game winning shot. Along with keeping you in the habit of playing position, being cognizant of the cue ball path will mean that you can recognise and avoid potential scratches.

But this can mean just rolling the ball in and playing the cue ball to roll a foot or two forward. Every player will have a type of position shot and speed that they feel most comfortable with, maybe a stop shot or slight draw shot etc. Play the shot you feel will make the ball the highest percentage of the time.
 
If your shot making is that of a 2 then you IMO could not have the defensive playing ability of an 8...I think you should learn to play center bottom and top english and consistantly pocket balls before you move on to more advanced shotmaking...I am learning every day and from what I've found life is like pool....you can know theory but there is no replacement for pool knowledge and that to me comes through experience and work....I am only saying in order to have the defensive ability of an 8 you would have to have the shotmaking ability of an 8....knowing how the cueball will react and having the ability to make it react that way are two different things
 
Kevin3824 said:
I read over the thread today and all I can say at this point is without actual table time you will never improve.

There is a huge difference between practice and playing. If your only going to play for an hour a week and that is when your at your league that is not practice that is playing time. You will improve but it will be a very long time before you advance. The team captain will love having low ranked players for a long time.

Like I probably mentioned in my previous posting you should check out the Tor videos https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tor+lowry

Work on your fundamentals. Try your best to make every shot. If you have the cue ball control you said then you should be able to leave the cue ball anywhere on the table you choose. That is where the ego comes in. It takes a lot of practice to learn to control the cue ball. It is not all ball speed. It is angle of the tip to the cue ball, follow through, ball and cue speed, motion of the cue, stance, angle of cue ball to object ball contact, etc... Remember that league play is nothing but team based entertainment competition. Many people in league only play to enjoy time with friends at the bar and drink. Pool itself may mean very little to them. There are others in league that may take pool very seriously.

While leagues may call getting advice from a better player coaching that better player probably should not be called a coach or instructor out of respect to those who actually coach or instruct pool players for a living.

There are literally hundred of threads on this board about how to improve an individuals skill set. There are thousands of videos, books, instructors, references available online both free and for sale. None of those things will teach you to play pool without you actually putting in the table time.
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Yes there is a huge difference between practice and play in any sport/game... I'll try to find the time to add at least one more day a week to practice. Does it matter a huge difference if you practice with someone or alone? Obviously if I had my own table I would just do all the drills on a daily basis but going to the pool hall, I am wondering if there is anything I should consider in that difference, like is it a waste of time to add another person even if we have the same goals. I know its silly but I feel weird going to a pool hall myself and just practicing, but maybe I should just get over that.

And I never meant I HAVE perfect cue ball control (because some others clearly mistook this comment of mine), I mean I know HOW, or the concepts of what to do to get the leave that I want. But my imperfect strikes/form and lack of precision causes the results to be erratic but I learn from every mistake.

In my league, not sure if this is way different from others, except for the 1's, it seems almost everyone is pretty serious when they play. They relax and whatever when they are on the sidelines, but when they play, not much laughing or whatever in any match of 3's and above. Like the last 3 I beat, he seemed pretty upset the whole time and didnt even get up to shake my hand after I finished. And there was another 3 I beat last season in the playoffs who complained to her manager on how I was playing defense and didnt seem to be having any fun at all either (altho her manager told me no worries, its all good and part of the game, he is a super nice guy). And it isnt just the people I play, its pretty much EVERY level 3 and above. That 7 I played looked stressed as $%&#$ when he was playing although he was a very nice guy. The only time I see them smile or emote is when they try a really low percentage shot to save a defense and they miss or make.

One thing, when u said captains love having low ranked players, if this is all handicapped (and I read some stuff on the system) why does a lower handicap on a team have an advantage over higher ranked? In fact it seems most people think a 2 has no chance to beat a 5 and then some say its super tough for a 7 to beat a 3, I dont understand. I thought the whole idea of handicapping was to make every match fairly equal? And then people talk about at the playoffs and Vegas they have such "strong 4's and 3's" etc.... I heard there is some sand bagging but during the regular season, whats the deal?
 
Icon of Sin said:
Table time to yourself. Set up shots and watch what the balls do when hitting high or low on the cueball. Straight ins, slight cuts, larger cuts. Watch how the cueball reacts off the rail. Learn to make the ball consistently when not hitting the center of the cueball.

Once you get a good understanding of that, add left or right english to the mix. Watch how the cue ball reacts off the rails with the spin after striking the OB. Learn how to make the ball consistently when hitting with left or right.

See my disclaimer...
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LMFAO

Well I think thats good advice but I'll keep your disclaimer in mind. I actually do those drills at times after my league time when most people just leave, I play extra games with my buddy or just hit random shots as you described and I like doing it... will just try to inrease the time, maybe stay another 1-2 hours which I did one time, and we ended up being joined by a guy who used to be an 8 and then semi-pro and we had a blast and he was pretty helpful and I think he got my buddy a job at his company LMAO.
 
Cameron Smith said:
You are correct it is a package deal. It's a good habit to think of it all as part of one shot. I wouldn't not think about the position on the final ball, most good players I've known suggest that you still play for a 'position' when pocketing the game winning shot. Along with keeping you in the habit of playing position, being cognizant of the cue ball path will mean that you can recognise and avoid potential scratches.

But this can mean just rolling the ball in and playing the cue ball to roll a foot or two forward. Every player will have a type of position shot and speed that they feel most comfortable with, maybe a stop shot or slight draw shot etc. Play the shot you feel will make the ball the highest percentage of the time.
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Well to be honest, I do think about position on the final ball only because I dont want to scratch LOL (we get fined for every scratch in every match believe it or not)... so if I have a straight in or a pretty severe angle, I am not trying to setup for the next ball in sequence, but I am definitely making sure I leave the cue near the middle of the table or safe.
 
JMASTERJ said:
Well to be honest, I do think about position on the final ball only because I dont want to scratch LOL (we get fined for every scratch in every match believe it or not)... so if I have a straight in or a pretty severe angle, I am not trying to setup for the next ball in sequence, but I am definitely making sure I leave the cue near the middle of the table or safe.
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Im just happy that you are a new member to the forum that isnt a blow hard. We seemed to have a massive influx of new members that for some reason thought they were doing all of us a favor.

You seem to have a realistic mind set and a good head on your shoulders. If you keep at it you will get better. Just keep in mind that it takes a ton of time to even get remotely decent at this game. Also keep in mind that skill level only number only applies to league. A skill level 8 might seem like an incredible player but when it comes to the real pool world he is mediocre at best.

I was a 9 when I quit league 5 years ago and I know I am still the small fish in my local poolhalls. But when I quit league my game jumped a lot because my time at the poolhalls was better spent (better for me might not be better for you).

However, where you are now though, IMO, league is great for you. You are going to get good competition near your level and higher and you are going to lose money whether you win or lose (league dues) LOL. Just have a good time at league. Take the game serious, but dont take the league serious.

Try to make it to the Expo at the end of March. Get a taste of pool world outside of league on a massive scale. Not sure where you are but it's worth the trip. I'll buy you a beer.

also... see my disclaimer. ;)
 
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PoppaSaun said:
Read about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, you seem to exhibit the signs.

https://code.tutsplus.com/articles/do-you-suffer-from-the-dunning-kruger-effect--net-22227
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I never knew that had a name. LOL.

I dont think this really applies to him because he is brand new. I think this should more apply to the League Team Captain that has been playing pool league for 20 years and is still a 4.

I think J will learn quickly and if he keeps his head right he will learn the pecking order and where he fits in it. As of right now I think he has a semi-realistic view of his abilities especially as he wasnt afraid to admit his low skill level.

Is there a name for the opposite of this, because I feel that's me. I know where I stack up and I know it's not that high LOL.
 
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I am gonna go out on a limb here and say ....if you are playing as much defense as you say you are and with one loss in what? 9 matches? No one is marking safes ...which helps determine the correct number of offensive and defensive shots during your matches which which helps determine your true handicap.

If you continue winning 90 % of your matches in 25-30 innings ...or whatever ...you will.never go up if 15-20 % or whatever % of
your shots are defense that was never marked

I have seen 2's with a high winning % take forever to go up but never seen a 2 that plays as many safties as you claim to make not go up.

Perfect example is a 2 one of my teams faced last session. When all the matches were over and the opposing captain saw the 7 defensive shots I marked on his 2 he refused to sign my scoresheet until I erased them . I did not erase them and he did not sign my sheet. I text my lo that night and explained the opposing captain did not sign my sheet and the reason he gave for refusing.

That 2 was raised to a 3 that following week.
 
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