Learn with an aiming system or not

bstroud said:
For those of you that are better players and still try to use an aiming system here is a shot I practice a lot.

Cue ball Frozen to the middle of the end tail, object ball 1/16" off the side rail at the second diamond near the same end rail.

Try Warping that shot in the far corner on a tight Diamond. Make it 5 times in a row. Now try it for 100 a game or more.

If you can barely get the tip on the cue ball what good is an aiming system.
Let your Subconscious mind do the work. It's a Super Computer.

Bill S.
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If you have only a portion of the cueball to hit then an aiming system becomes an even greater tool to use to help with lining up right on the shot. It's funny that you use this example because this is PRECISELY the type of shot where aiming systems really show how good they are.

Super Computers need to be programmed. Gordy Vanderveer said it well the other day, feeding the subconscious. Aiming systems are literally programming for the subconscious.

I have shot those clutch shots just as you describe for $100 a game and higher. Often make them precisely BECAUSE I was able to aim them properly using CTE and hold it together enough to lay down a good stroke.

In China I lost $500 to a guy and then spent three weeks really learning CTE and committed to using it every time. I played him again and won $1800 while giving him weight. The "tough" shots I had dogged previous were now being made and I didn't give away games.
 
Mike81 said:
Ironically, bill S.,
The shot you described, only difference is the ob was at the 3rd diamond and the cue ball about 5 inches off the end rail, is the reason I asked this question. I lost my last match because I missed that same shot. Could be inexperience, nerves or who knows? I practiced that shot this weekend at least 120 times over and still at a 50% success rate. I know that if I gave myself better position off the last ball however I would've won. So there's many factors here.
Jb cases,
I'm not against using or learning an aiming system or method, I try to keep an open mind. I'm sure some pros use one, some don't or they may combine them with their own ways. I've gotten pretty far going by feel. How I gauge that statement is I can compete with and sometimes beat very good players, granted that is in the league I shoot in which I'm sure isn't a pro level league but, I made a lot of progress basically by constantly shooting, practicing with drills and basically getting my a** kicked to the point of tears! So if I hit a plateau that isn't where I want to be I may try a system. Having a natural feel or finesse about it is what I'm going to try first, it just appeals to me more. However, I may be wrong or maybe I need more time to figure it out I'm not sure because I've only been serious for about a year No matter who is right or wrong on this, I really do appreciate your desire to give advice and help me out! Thank you!
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Do you know where finesse and "natural" feel comes from? It's not natural at all. It's from practice and learning how the balls react. That's all what comes after the aiming and aspects of the game that must be worked on.

The fact that you are asking the question is what's important. You don't NEED an aiming system to become a great player. At least not theoretically. Theoretically you can learn everything that is possible to do with the balls through brute force including aiming. But instruction is born through the experience of those who have already learned what you need and want to know.

Michael Jordan used to bristle at those who said he was the greatest natural talent in basketball. He said that it completely glossed over the incredible amount of work it took for him get so good and the fact that he put in more work than those around him. In other words it takes a lot of work to become "natural".

Aiming systems will still be there whenever you want to explore them. But if anyone says they don't work, will hinder your game, or that they are not useful, they are ignorant of the facts. Anyone who knows them well can show you in minutes why they are great tools to have.

In fact, I was recently shown a new banking system. By a friend I have known for years. Someone who regularly slams in banks from places I think he wouldn't dare try to bank. Even me - the world's loudest aiming system cheerleader - didn't figure out that he was using a system until he told me. Yes I would see him pointing his cue but I thought it was the same old approximation method of figuring banks and that he was just good at it. Nope. He has a freaking amazing system for banks which is simple and easy and immediately made my banking percentages jump tremendously. And this system is NOWHERE to be found in any books, videos, online nowhere. So I could - and have banked balls for years by feel, and by system with decent success but this one nugget of knowledge has increased my make percentages in a matter of days rather than years. I use my cue to measure it out so it looks quirky and awkward but gets the job done. He does it all mentally most of the time and only uses his cue when he can't be sure of "seeing" the lines correctly. That's one reason I never realized he is using a system. Which is to say he just looked to me like an exceptionally naturally talented banker. Take that for what it's worth.
 
JB Cases said:
I have shot those clutch shots just as you describe for $100 a game and higher. Often make them precisely BECAUSE I was able to aim them properly using CTE and hold it together enough to lay down a good stroke.
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The system of CTE does not account for swerve, deflection or how much those 2 things come into play based on how far the object ball and cue ball are, how slick the cloth is or how dirty the balls are and how hard you hit it.

What you have simply done is adjusted to those things while using your CTE as your reference point. Which is absolutely no different then me looking at pocket through the object ball to get my reference point and then accounting for those same factors. Can we call that an aiming system? Sure, because I do it every single time.
 
JB Cases said:
Do you know where finesse and "natural" feel comes from? It's not natural at all. It's from practice and learning how the balls react. That's all what comes after the aiming and aspects of the game that must be worked on.

The fact that you are asking the question is what's important. You don't NEED an aiming system to become a great player. At least not theoretically. Theoretically you can learn everything that is possible to do with the balls through brute force including aiming. But instruction is born through the experience of those who have already learned what you need and want to know.

Michael Jordan used to bristle at those who said he was the greatest natural talent in basketball. He said that it completely glossed over the incredible amount of work it took for him get so good and the fact that he put in more work than those around him. In other words it takes a lot of work to become "natural".

Aiming systems will still be there whenever you want to explore them. But if anyone says they don't work, will hinder your game, or that they are not useful, they are ignorant of the facts. Anyone who knows them well can show you in minutes why they are great tools to have.

In fact, I was recently shown a new banking system. By a friend I have known for years. Someone who regularly slams in banks from places I think he wouldn't dare try to bank. Even me - the world's loudest aiming system cheerleader - didn't figure out that he was using a system until he told me. Yes I would see him pointing his cue but I thought it was the same old approximation method of figuring banks and that he was just good at it. Nope. He has a freaking amazing system for banks which is simple and easy and immediately made my banking percentages jump tremendously. And this system is NOWHERE to be found in any books, videos, online nowhere. So I could - and have banked balls for years by feel, and by system with decent success but this one nugget of knowledge has increased my make percentages in a matter of days rather than years. I use my cue to measure it out so it looks quirky and awkward but gets the job done. He does it all mentally most of the time and only uses his cue when he can't be sure of "seeing" the lines correctly. That's one reason I never realized he is using a system. Which is to say he just looked to me like an exceptionally naturally talented banker. Take that for what it's worth.
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Ok, ok, you convinced me. Sell me one aiming system and thrown in one lotto system for half price like you said you would k?
 
This thread could go on, and on, as long as John is awake and there's someone to spar with.
The truth seems to be, however, that if an aiming system (any aiming system) was worth it's salt we'd all be using one. Certainly all the professional players would be. How could they afford not to?
And historically. Are we so naïve to think that the outstanding players of yesteryear weren't intelligent enough, or ambitious enough, to invent a system that would improve their pool play? That seems to be an insult to their greatness to me.
I have been playing pool on and off for the better part of 55 years, and the last 17 years almost daily. Do you not think that by this time I wouldn't have availed myself of some kid of a system that would have improved my pool play? Why hell yes I would have.
But, I knew better. I knew that the only way to self-improvement is hard work and dedication and practicing and playing as much as I could. SJD is right when he says you have to hit a million balls.
In these modern times we find the new player wanting an easy way to the top. He hasn't the time, nor the patience, for what it takes to grow in the game but would rather pay for a phone app to get to where he thinks he wants to be. Today's instructors are more than happy to provide this youngster with a "guaranteed" system that will work wonders for his game and I don't blame them. A guy's got to make a living.
In the end, however, the fellow who brings home the trophy is the one who has spent endless hours at a table, and as Bill has said, is relying on his inner-self to guide the way. :smile:
 
Tramp Steamer said:
This thread could go on, and on, as long as John is awake and there's someone to spar with.
The truth seems to be, however, that if an aiming system (any aiming system) was worth it's salt we'd all be using one. Certainly all the professional players would be. How could they afford not to?
And historically. Are we so naïve to think that the outstanding players of yesteryear weren't intelligent enough, or ambitious enough, to invent a system that would improve their pool play? That seems to be an insult to their greatness to me.
I have been playing pool on and off for the better part of 55 years, and the last 17 years almost daily. Do you not think that by this time I wouldn't have availed myself of some kid of a system that would have improved my pool play? Why hell yes I would have.
But, I knew better. I knew that the only way to self-improvement is hard work and dedication and practicing and playing as much as I could. SJD is right when he says you have to hit a million balls.
In these modern times we find the new player wanting an easy way to the top. He hasn't the time, nor the patience, for what it takes to grow in the game but would rather pay for a phone app to get to where he thinks he wants to be. Today's instructors are more than happy to provide this youngster with a "guaranteed" system that will work wonders for his game and I don't blame them. A guy's got to make a living.
In the end, however, the fellow who brings home the trophy is the one who has spent endless hours at a table, and as Bill has said, is relying on his inner-self to guide the way. :smile:
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What if you hit a million balls with the right guidance? And how do you really know what the old time players did?

How many hours of table time does a player put in to learn an aiming system on average?
 
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Skippy27 said:
The system of CTE does not account for swerve, deflection or how much those 2 things come into play based on how far the object ball and cue ball are, how slick the cloth is or how dirty the balls are and how hard you hit it.

What you have simply done is adjusted to those things while using your CTE as your reference point. Which is absolutely no different then me looking at pocket through the object ball to get my reference point and then accounting for those same factors. Can we call that an aiming system? Sure, because I do it every single time.
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Good aiming systems give you a dead nuts PERFECT baseline from which to adjust if needed for any variables.

If whatever you use to aim is working for you then don't change. Doesn't mean that what I use isn't better than what you use. It also doesn't mean that my use of it makes me a better player than you. Buying the best hammer doesn't make me a better carpenter than a master carpenter. A master carpenter can work with a lousy hammer and still do better work than me with the best hammer. But a master carpenter with the best hammer....
 
Also the notion that if x were so good everyone would use it is silly. People do things that are against their self-interest all the time despite the evidence that changing to a different behavior is better for them.

People stubbornly argue against new concepts constantly. People argue against things for which there can literally be no denial of the facts proving those things.

In every sport the methods to train and learn have evolved constantly. Yet in pool apparently we should be stuck in some time between the 1850s and 1950s when it comes to methods of learning and training?

This whole notion of just go to the table and let your brain work it out is accepted but telling people to use refined ways to align to the shot is seen as heretical? Seems silly to me but then I guess EVERYONE here is way better than me as a player and has way better insight into the human mind.

Bill Stroud puts piezo electric material into shafts with some claims that these dampen the vibration and make for a better and more accurate hit that you can have for $200 a shaft and no one blinks an eye to test or counter that claim. But someone works their ass off to figure out a method/system of perception that claims to help with lining up shots and suddenly that's grounds to tar and feather that person?
 
one stroke said:
Ya we'll take your word on it rolmfao


1
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Why not? On AZB a guy with the handle GoldenFlash is just as credible as one with the handle one stroke.

Although GoldenFlash seems to have stories that are not only entertaining they seem to have some details that could be verified if one wanted to. So maybe he or she has even more credibility.
 
Mike81 said:
Excellent advice thank you all. I believe you answered my question. I will keep on practicing and be patient and im sure my aiming will get better. Just needed to hear it from some experienced people. Also I do practice my stroke and stance often. I figured out on my own that was my biggest problem.
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You're on the right track.
I hope you find a good instructor like Tor locally.
 
JB Cases said:
Why not? On AZB a guy with the handle GoldenFlash is just as credible as one with the handle one stroke.

Although GoldenFlash seems to have stories that are not only entertaining they seem to have some details that could be verified if one wanted to. So maybe he or she has even more credibility.
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I'm not making any clhaims but when someone does it should be backed up with proff and that has yet to happen to the best of my knowledge,


1
 
JB Cases said:
yep and I have beat guys that use it as well.
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John, with the vast wealth of knowledge you've thrown on YouTube, showing CTE and backhand english, I am surprised you ever miss.

What I don't understand...and you'll need to explain this to me...on the video link I posted of you missing that fairly routine 10 ball, your stroke was straight. You poked it, but your cue went straight. In your videos, you mention the sweeps. You also mention knowing to use BHE to compensate for deflection. Here's my question. If your system works, why did you hit the long rail with the 10 instead of the short rail? You're clearly playing left on the cueball. That would throw the cueball to the right, thus undercutting the ball. So, if you lined up correctly, and didn't compensate correctly, the 10 should have hit the bottom rail, not the side. You missed the shot by a full diamond. That leads me to believe you just never got on the right line of the shot to start with.

Hardly seems to be the "exact", "dead nuts" system that you have heralded it to be.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
John, with the vast wealth of knowledge you've thrown on YouTube, showing CTE and backhand english, I am surprised you ever miss.

What I don't understand...and you'll need to explain this to me...on the video link I posted of you missing that fairly routine 10 ball, your stroke was straight. You poked it, but your cue went straight. In your videos, you mention the sweeps. You also mention knowing to use BHE to compensate for deflection. Here's my question. If your system works, why did you hit the long rail with the 10 instead of the short rail? You're clearly playing left on the cueball. That would throw the cueball to the right, thus undercutting the ball. So, if you lined up correctly, and didn't compensate correctly, the 10 should have hit the bottom rail, not the side. You missed the shot by a full diamond. That leads me to believe you just never got on the right line of the shot to start with.

Hardly seems to be the "exact", "dead nuts" system that you have heralded it to be.
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Could be. I was playing at warp speed for most of the match so it's entirely possible that I picked the wrong line. Lou missed a lot of shots too so maybe you ask him why he missed. I would guess that the question of a bad stroke being the problem would be far less of a question in his case considering that he has picture perfect fundamentals.

So again, let me CLARIFY since you have appointed yourself to be the CHIEF NIT PICKER.

WHEN the Center to Edge system is PROPERLY used it gives the shooter a dead nuts PERFECT centerball shot line.

As do other systems for a wide range of shots.

Instead of picking on me to try and discredit aiming systems lets do this instead and provide the OP with some inspirational videos.

Landon Shuffett (CTE Pro One User) Beating Earl Strickland 10 ball 10ft table


Landon Shuffett - 4 Pack.

Phil Burford CTE/Pro One user vs. Mario He

Phil Burford vs. Francisco Bustamante - with interview.

Stevie Moore CTE Pro One user.

Stevie Moore vs. Oscar Dominguez

Ekkes Schneider - See System/Samba - Shot Making Test

Gerry Williams CTE/ProOne - Joe Tucker Aiming Workout.

Gerry Williams 9 Ball Ghost Calling Out the Aiming Visuals.

9 Ball Ghost 13-3 (Finished with a 9 pack) No ball in Hand.
Gerald Williams

That's enough for now. To the original poster, again there are many people out there who are having GREAT success with this method. Gerry said he put in 250 hours on it but if you contact him and ask him what he thinks he will tell you that he has risen to be one of the top players in his area.
 
John, you are obviously never going to stop touting CTE, or showing examples of other players (admitedly some pretty good ones) who think it has helped their game also!..I have neither the time, or the inclination, to prove my point, by digging up the names of all the great players, past and present, who have learned by HAMB and never gave CTE a second look! :sorry:

I would venture to guess (and I would bet heavily on it) that the HAMB guys, would outnumber the CTE guys, by about 100 to 1!..As someone else alluded to, if something like CTE would have been so effective, it would have been brought to the forefront (invented) 100 yrs. ago!..All the great players that flourished before the internet age, were not the idiots you seem to make them out to be!

You are a product of the digital age, and you seem to be blind to the inherent skills needed to excel at a game where hand/eye coordination will always be the dominant factor!..If you want to do something worthwhile..set up a poll, asking which method would be more effective, HAMB or CTE? :cool:
 
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