slabbing Ivory

[louieatienza]

Uh, no, that's like someone from the Mets no longer teaching his own personal baseball techniques because a bunch of Little League coaches band together and loudly argue that his techniques aren't any good.

TW

Same thing... why let the few dissenters win by letting them stifle your words? They won't use your techniques regardless. But there are many others who would take the baton and carry it forward; more so than the few big mouths.

 

[KJ Cues]

Yeah. Like I went 35+ years - the first 20 being when there were ZERO sources for cuemaking tips or instructions - without developing and clever or efficient ways of doing anything.

The funniest thing to me is now, after there have been at least two manuscripts, many DVDs, and countless Youtube videos produced to "teach" cuemaking, the collective knowledge about the craft is actually considerably more limited (!) That's because all you experts (KJ, et al) have gotten your "knowledge" from the same limited pool - then you simply repeat it among yourselves and all nod at each other like it's a good thing. With VERY few exceptions, no newer cuemakers today even give a passing thought to incorporating / developing new methods or technology - why should then when DZ's latest YouTube video has already taught them everything they think they'll ever need to know?

Back in the 80's I had the priceless opportunity to become friends with Tad Kohara. Tad had been born in a machine shop (literally), and was already a successful manufacturer when he bought all of Harvey Martin's equipment and supplies (after Harvey died). The things he learned from studying Martin's tools could fill volumes, and Tad was clever enough to make that knowledge his launching pad for even greater tools and methods that Tad himself invented. And I was the lucky recipient of much of that because Tad was a very generous friend.

To this day there are secrets that came out of Tad's shop (with perhaps their roots in Martin's shop) that are very closely held by a handful of cuemakers. One in particular is SO valuable that if it became illegal to use I would quit the craft. I learned it from Jerry McWorter (who learned it from Tad). I assume Jerry shared it with Rick Chudy, and I shared it with Samsara. As far as I know, other than the four of us, it's unknown by any other cuemaker. In fact, we have a secret "code name" among us for the device so that we can discuss using it without ever risking accidentally revealing anything about it by a descriptive term.

Or maybe it's just a myth. Maybe there IS no secret device. Maybe there aren't several secret automated machines in North Dakota that make the most tedious cuemaking tasks not only easy, but also produce perfect results. Maybe there is no brilliant, efficient, high-yield way of slabbing ivory from a tusk section. Maybe ALL of what I've described is just pure fantasy.

The important thing is, you guys will never know. And the reason you’ll never know is because you exist in a knowledge bubble that is drawn from sources too far removed from the roots of this craft. When I started cuemaking there was no CNC available to small shops, and the NC/CNC machinery that existed on an industrial level was crude by today's standards. So I had to invent ways to use what WAS available to do what I needed to do. The same is true of every cuemaker from that era, and we all became the better for it. And all those guys know more about cuemaking than anyone today could learn from the current “shared knowledge pool”

Regarding “ego”, probably my favorite relevant quote is from baseball great Dizzy Dean, who said. “It ain’t bragging if you done it.” Well, I’m here to tell you we done it. So keep thinking they “got played”, KJ... and keep thinking you know everything – ‘cause I, for one, really enjoy watching the show.

TW

You set-out from the very beginning of this thread to play everyone in it. You succeeded with
one exception. I knew your game the minute I read it. Your ego begs for attention.
You have an incredible knack for making assumptions though you state that you don't assume anything.
Shall I quote your own words again to prove the contrary ? That's what started all of this.
You assume to know something about me but you're lacking in fact. You know nothing about me.
I've never watched vids to become a CM. I'm a lifelong student of Engineering. To me, cues are easy.
I've been building for 30 yrs and I make good money doing custom-repair. My work goes all over the world.

Why do your responses always turn into short version auto-biographies?
Because it's a chance for you to drop some names.
I already know more about you than I wanted and dude, it ain't pretty.
Apparently you do garner fans though. Most authoritarians do.

In a previous thread you said you were going to take your ball and go home.
So much for what you say....You've turned yourself into a troll.
The only reason you've come back here is to see if your name has been mentioned; it hasn't.
I think it's fair to say that some have not missed you. But your ego just can't stand that. Sad.
To boot, you've used people as cannon-fodder in an attempt to show faux superiority. Very sad.
Mr Wayne, you need help. I'll wager I'm not the first to suggest that either.

 

[cueman]

Nice story, Chris, but the truth is too many latter-day cuemakers are so heavily invested in the things they've "taught" others that they can't stand the idea of being contradicted. I'll offer one simple example: Superglue "finishes".

What a TERRIBLE idea that is, but even as I post this there will be dozens (hundreds?) of cuemakers who'll be up in arms because THEY finish their cues with superglue.

Superglue is NOT a finish, and it will not stand the test of time. It's fairly easy, and does not require much investment in equipment, so all THE near-broke dreamers who think they'll get rich building cues someday embrace it, and no doubt will argue it's a GREAT finishing method. No, no it's not. It's a quick and dirty method and anyone can do it, but it's a very poor compromise and anyone who would use it is not producing great cues.

And I get the argument that automotive painting equipment and a spray booth are too expensive for the average guy, but superglue makes it possible for them to build cues too. Yeah... except Murray Tucker doesn't have expensive, high-tech spray equipment or a spray booth and he still uses automotive clearcoat. Rick Chudy doesn't have ANY spray equipment and HE still uses catalyzed clearcoat. Just two examples of good cuemakers who want to achieve the best results, and by thinking "outside the box" have been able to do so.

So, back on point, Chris - ANY tip or trick I post will undoubtedly be met by many arguments about why I'm "wrong", and I guess I'm finally tired of that crap. I can tell you more than a few OFG cuemakers will be glad, 'cause they've been asking me for years to quit sharing secrets.

TW

Then my question would be why waste your time here? Because leaving a unproductive post like you did has led to a bunch of negative stuff already. You are just coming on and saying "please start something with me" when you post sarcastic and unproductive posts. I see no purpose for it. It is like considering yourself to be picked on by bullies, yet going up to the bullies and kicking them in the shin. If your previous posts were less sarcastic when teaching you might not have stirred up the ire of the locals who you have not already had problems with elsewhere. Like I said I think the feelings go so deep with those that it is a lost cause and should just be put on ignore list.

Like for instance you just said when talking about super glue finishes "anyone who would use it is not producing great cues." so you just told everyone that does it that they do not build great cues. If you had left that comment off, your post on super glue would have been better received. I am sharing these things with you as a friend.

 

[stevel]

I like reading this stuff.

 

[ProZack]

Funny!!!! Seems the Same thing Happens with the TOP PLAYER'S that tried to contribute to Az. They would give Hard earned advice and guys who watch YouTube and all the Tapes but NEVER hit a Ball would give them Grief.

YouTube Pool Players and YouTube Cue Makers!!!!!!!! HA HA

As for the HISTORY between you gents, I don't know much about it.. Just a observation on Online know it alls..

 

[LGSM3]

I happen to think TW's explanation was rather cordial. He said whats needed to be said for a long time. The cue market is garbage because the new generation doesnt have to figure anything out or be creative. Don't believe me? Look in the cue gallery! Its page after page after page of boring with a very few stunners thrown in.

TW's only saying what all of the cuemakers in his league feel and thats a fact.

I also know for a fact that TW's is quite willing to help someone if they have potential and if there heart is in it. He has helped me significantly but rarely with a direct answer. Rather he would give me hints which forced me to really think.

For you guys who are hung up on what an asshole he is.....I would ask you take a moment to consider things from his perspective.

supply is up and demand is down because any moron can buy a cue lathe and watch a few videos and begin contributing to the problem.

 

[LGSM3]

I like reading this stuff.

sick fukr

 

[Thomas Wayne]

[...]
I've been building for 30 yrs and [...].

Yeah. You know I hear claims like that all the time. It's actually astonishing how many of today's cuemakers [I never heard of] were "building cues" in the 1980's - especially when you consider how remarkably small the custom cue industry was back then.

Except for one little problem. I first got to know Leonard Bludworth and Dan Prather in the mid-80's, and they both supplied most of the existing cuemakers (and just about anyone who was repairing cues) at the time. Leonard, in particular, had a very complete list of the guys who were building cues. In 1992 the American Cuemakers Association was founded, and as one of the original founders I was acquainted with EVERY member then, and for many years after. The ACA held two shows the first [fiscal] year, and had a presence [en mass] at many major annual events all during that era.

The Billiard Encyclopedia was published in 1994, and many calendars and Blue Books have come out since then, and many cue-centric events occurred throughout the 90's. So if you were building cues as a business beginning 30 years ago I would think I could find your name mentioned somewhere in the vast historical record. Earliest mention I could actually find anywhere was from 2001.

Now, I guess I understand why newer cuemakers would invent a history for themselves - obviously attempting to establish some sort of industry credibility. And I am not for one moment saying that YOU are lying about your long - though rather "low profile" - involvement in the industry. I'm just saying I find the historical discrepancy puzzling. It reminds me of the Woodstock Music Festival - 400,000 people attended, and 8+million people have fond vivid memories of having "been there".

TW

 

[Thomas Wayne]

[...]
Like for instance you just said when talking about super glue finishes "anyone who would use it is not producing great cues." so you just told everyone that does it that they do not build great cues. If you had left that comment off, your post on super glue would have been better received. I am sharing these things with you as a friend.

Please, my friend, share with me your argument that superglue is a suitable finish for great cues, or that there are some great cuemakers who use superglue for their finish.

It's either a suitable finish or it's not - and I get that you, as an industry supplier, would not want to offend any potential customers. But if you don't think it's a great finish, then shouldn't you be honest about that? And if you DO think it's a great finish, again, please share your logic with me and let's discuss that question.

TW
.

 

[rhinobywilhite]

My big question is, people still using ivory these days?

Yes, until my small amount runs out, I will continue to use ivory.

Current law allows me to sell in Texas.

I just completed a cue with ivory inlays to donate to a Wounded Warriors benefit that will be held on Saturday. I have included documentation regarding the source.

 

[j2pac]

Please, my friend, share with me your argument that superglue is a suitable finish for great cues, or that there are some great cuemakers who use superglue for their finish.

It's either a suitable finish or it's not - and I get that you, as an industry supplier, would not want to offend any potential customers. But if you don't think it's a great finish, then shouldn't you be honest about that? And if you DO think it's a great finish, again, please share your logic with me and let's discuss that question.

TW
.

Mr. Wayne,
I don't have a dog in this fight, but it really doesn't seem like that was the intent of what Chris was trying to say, and perhaps you missed his point entirely. I also happen to think it is very generous of Bob Dz, to pass on some of the knowledge that he has acquired throughout the years. I have come to know Bob as a true gentleman, and someone I consider a friend. There have been times that I have been a little fired up about a subject, and after talking with DZ, I am reminded of what he says. "Don't wrestle with pigs, because you just get dirty, and the pig likes it." I think that this is the mentality that Bob takes, when posting a video, or sharing a technique, and I think it has served him well over the years. JMHO.
All the best.
Joe P

 

[j2pac]

Yes, until my small amount runs out, I will continue to use ivory.

Current law allows me to sell in Texas.

I just completed a cue with ivory inlays to donate to a Wounded Warriors benefit that will be held on Saturday. I have included documentation regarding the source.

That is an extremely nice gesture...Very cool.
Best regards.
Joe P

 

[rhinobywilhite]

I posted a simple request for advice regarding efficient slabbing of a small chunk of ivory and we moved in another direction.

Cueman offered advice as did LGSM3 and Thomas declined. I understand why, now.

If any of the other posters would care to offer me some advice about cutting the ivory-I am all ears.

Before I die, I would like to see "Ask the Cuemaker" become a section of AZB where everyone could share without being torched. I probably, at age 72 going on 73, will not live to see it.

I understand temper because I have one that can flare but we all could be more respectful.

I now await my own torching for daring to use ivory.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Yes, until my small amount runs out, I will continue to use ivory.

Current law allows me to sell in Texas.

I just completed a cue with ivory inlays to donate to a Wounded Warriors benefit that will be held on Saturday. I have included documentation regarding the source.

No probs.
The part that scares me is if it crosses the state line or heaven forbid someone tries to export it.
I have little ivory rods for collars, 2 ferrules and two butt plates.
Can't even sell those locally now.
Funny thing is I forgot they were illegal to sell until after someone asked for some ferrules.

 

[rhinobywilhite]

Since this cue is a donation, they can take it to another state with documentation that I will supply. That includes approximate weight of ivory contained or that it meets the de minimus requirements-

Now, if I sell a cue that has ivory, I ask for a Texas driver's license and I supply the support documentation. No TDL, no cue with ivory.

 

[rhinobywilhite]

That is an extremely nice gesture...Very cool.
Best regards.
Joe P

Thank you, Joe. I know there are a lot of us that donate cues, other items, money, and time to good causes.

 

[cueman]

Please, my friend, share with me your argument that superglue is a suitable finish for great cues, or that there are some great cuemakers who use superglue for their finish.

It's either a suitable finish or it's not - and I get that you, as an industry supplier, would not want to offend any potential customers. But if you don't think it's a great finish, then shouldn't you be honest about that? And if you DO think it's a great finish, again, please share your logic with me and let's discuss that question.

TW
.

I went through a phase where i finished cues with super glue and many of those cues are still around 20 years later and the finish is okay on most of them that I run across. I still use super glue sometimes for the bottom couple of inches on the shaft. So I guess that puts me in the category of those who do not build great cues. There are a lot of cuemakers who use it because they feel it is safer than Auto Clear Coats. I use a two part epoxy finish for those reasons mainly and because I don't like spraying.

My comments to you had nothing to do with super glue being a great finish for great cues, but the fact you disparaged all cuemakers who use it as not building great cues. Just trying to help you come across to others with some of the class that your cues represent. And I do think you make great cues. I have one of yours in my collection. Probably twenty years or so old and the rings can be felt a little through the finish you used just like most of the super glue finished cues with some age on them do.

 

[cueman]

To the original poster. Sorry for taking this thread off track and if you have any other questions on slabbing your material feel free to call me. I have cut a few tusks through the years.

 

[Thomas Wayne]

I went through a phase where i finished cues with super glue and many of those cues are still around 20 years later and the finish is okay on most of them that I run across. I still use super glue sometimes for the bottom couple of inches on the shaft. So I guess that puts me in the category of those who do not build great cues. There are a lot of cuemakers who use it because they feel it is safer than Auto Clear Coats. I use a two part epoxy finish for those reasons mainly and because I don't like spraying.

My comments to you had nothing to do with super glue being a great finish for great cues, but the fact you disparaged all cuemakers who use it as not building great cues. Just trying to help you come across to others with some of the class that your cues represent. And I do think you make great cues. I have one of yours in my collection. Probably twenty years or so old and the rings can be felt a little through the finish you used just like most of the super glue finished cues with some age on them do.

Thank you , Chris. I will note that you are in the category of cuemakers who think superglue is a great finish.

TW

 

[KJ Cues]

Yeah. You know I hear claims like that all the time. It's actually astonishing how many of today's cuemakers [I never heard of] were "building cues" in the 1980's - especially when you consider how remarkably small the custom cue industry was back then.

Except for one little problem. I first got to know Leonard Bludworth and Dan Prather in the mid-80's, and they both supplied most of the existing cuemakers (and just about anyone who was repairing cues) at the time. Leonard, in particular, had a very complete list of the guys who were building cues. In 1992 the American Cuemakers Association was founded, and as one of the original founders I was acquainted with EVERY member then, and for many years after. The ACA held two shows the first [fiscal] year, and had a presence [en mass] at many major annual events all during that era.

The Billiard Encyclopedia was published in 1994, and many calendars and Blue Books have come out since then, and many cue-centric events occurred throughout the 90's. So if you were building cues as a business beginning 30 years ago I would think I could find your name mentioned somewhere in the vast historical record. Earliest mention I could actually find anywhere was from 2001.

Now, I guess I understand why newer cuemakers would invent a history for themselves - obviously attempting to establish some sort of industry credibility. And I am not for one moment saying that YOU are lying about your long - though rather "low profile" - involvement in the industry. I'm just saying I find the historical discrepancy puzzling. It reminds me of the Woodstock Music Festival - 400,000 people attended, and 8+million people have fond vivid memories of having "been there".

TW

Just for some clarity, 2001 was the year that I started with Seyberts doing their custom work.
I'd been building 13 yrs prior to that. Do you honestly think they'd hire someone off the street
with no experience to run their custom-repair operation ? I'm not saying this for your benefit
but for everyone else who happens to read this and can see past your attempts at belittlement.
Even though I'm in my 70th year on this planet I still do their custom work. It's something that I enjoy
and I'll continue until I can't. You mentioned Prather. You're welcome to check their sales-database to
see if it goes back that far. They were one of my first suppliers. Prior to that I was building sneakies
from house-cues and 1 pc Dufferins. Bludworth wouldn't know me from Adam. I never chose to deal with him.
Because you have no knowledge of my history isn't surprising. I'd chosen to avoid you as well.
It's been interesting (and revealing) Thomas but you're starting to bore me.
Rants and insults come too easily for you.

I have a parting question for you. Have you ever wondered what people say about you behind your back ?