rail bolt broken off

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BigAlTheTiger

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I need advice on getting a rail bolt that is broken off inside the slate. My table is a 9 ft. Brunswick (made around the 1940's) The 3/8 inch rail bolts have square heads and are a hair over 4 inches long. The bolt that is broken off is probably around 1/2 inch from the edge of the slate. So, I figure that around 3 inches of bolt has to come out. Can I use some lubricant like PB or Kroil with Silicone to help break the bolt loose? Or will that just lead to more problems?

My thoughts are to use left hand drill bits, and maybe tap an extractor in and try to back it out that way. Any help would be much appreciated. thanks
 
BigAlTheTiger said:
I need advice on getting a rail bolt that is broken off inside the slate. My table is a 9 ft. Brunswick (made around the 1940's) The 3/8 inch rail bolts have square heads and are a hair over 4 inches long. The bolt that is broken off is probably around 1/2 inch from the edge of the slate. So, I figure that around 3 inches of bolt has to come out. Can I use some lubricant like PB or Kroil with Silicone to help break the bolt loose? Or will that just lead to more problems?

My thoughts are to use left hand drill bits, and maybe tap an extractor in and try to back it out that way. Any help would be much appreciated. thanks
Click to expand...

You're talking about T-rail bolts, my first question is wby are the heads of the bolts square? They should be mushroom shaped, unless someone milled them square, which could have been the reason you ended up with a rail bolt broke off. You can try the easy out and lube, but you may have to replace the capture nut embedded in the slate with lead as well.
 
BigAlTheTiger said:
I need advice on getting a rail bolt that is broken off inside the slate. My table is a 9 ft. Brunswick (made around the 1940's) The 3/8 inch rail bolts have square heads and are a hair over 4 inches long. The bolt that is broken off is probably around 1/2 inch from the edge of the slate. So, I figure that around 3 inches of bolt has to come out. Can I use some lubricant like PB or Kroil with Silicone to help break the bolt loose? Or will that just lead to more problems?

My thoughts are to use left hand drill bits, and maybe tap an extractor in and try to back it out that way. Any help would be much appreciated. thanks
Click to expand...

Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil, Vibration (Rubber Mallet, LIGHTLY), Time, Vibration (Tap on the Bolt with a Punch, Lightly), Liquid Wrench, Vibration, Time, Vibration.
Drill Correct Size Hole, Then Use an Easy-Out.
Pray to the Billiards God(s).

Using a Left Drill Bit Could Snap Off or Just Make a Hole for the Easy-Out.
Be Sure that it is the correct size for the Easy-Out.
 
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realkingcobra said:
You're talking about T-rail bolts, my first question is wby are the heads of the bolts square? They should be mushroom shaped, unless someone milled them square, which could have been the reason you ended up with a rail bolt broke off. You can try the easy out and lube, but you may have to replace the capture nut embedded in the slate with lead as well.
Click to expand...

I have seen the mushroom shaped heads before. I don't know why they are square, but that's the way they were when I bought it used in 1991. I do remember that the last mechanic left me another bolt, and it appears to be identical to the other 5 that I removed a few days ago.

I hope that I do not mess up the capture nut, because it appears to me that will be hard for me to replace the capture nut.

I appreciate your advice, and give you many thanks. I'll keep you up to date with my progress. I will work on it again in a few days when some more tools arrive. Again thank you RKC.
 
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mchnhed said:
Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil, Vibration (Rubber Mallet, LIGHTLY), Time, Vibration (Tap on the Bolt with a Punch, Lightly), Liquid Wrench, Vibration, Time, Vibration.
Drill Correct Size Hole, Then Use an Easy-Out.
Pray to the Billiards God(s).

Using a Left Drill Bit Could Snap Off or Just Make a Hole for the Easy-Out.
Be Sure that it is the correct size for the Easy-Out.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I'll try that technique in a few days, but I will go ahead and apply the lube. I was hoping that I could use the lube, but I didn't know if in turn would cause negative situation with the slate.
 
BigAlTheTiger said:
Thanks for the info. I'll try that technique in a few days, but I will go ahead and apply the lube. I was hoping that I could use the lube, but I didn't know if in turn would cause negative situation with the slate.
Click to expand...

I am concerned about that also.
Glenn would know if the Slate Could Be Harmed by any type of Lube or Penetrating Oil.

When you say you want to try "Lube" First.......
What Kind?
Only a Pentrating Oil is Designed to Free Up Frozen Bolts/Studs.
If you put a Different liquid in First, the 2nd liquid will not be sucked up to the Problem area.
 
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Anti-Seize Compound on Threads of Rail Bolts

I've hear a lot about Stripped Inserts, Pulled Threads, Broken Rail Bolts.

I was taught that you never dry assemble a Threaded Part.

Anti-Seize is Best, But at Least Grease, Oil, Lube.

The Type of Anti-Seize is Different for the type of materials used.

But a Regular Type from a Auto Parts Store is Fine for Steel in Steel.
 
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mchnhed said:
I am concerned about that also.
Glenn would know if the Slate Could Be Harmed by any type of Lube or Penetrating Oil.

When you say you want to try "Lube" First.......
What Kind?
Only a Pentrating Oil is Designed to Free Up Frozen Bolts/Studs.
If you put a Different liquid in First, the 2nd liquid will not be sucked up to the Problem area.
Click to expand...

I was considering a lubricant like PB, or Kroil with Silicone. You mentioned a Liquid Wrench one which I hear is an excellent product. The Kroil one is supposed to go to the millionth space. Whatever I use, I want to know what is best for the bolt, and not harm the slate and future felt at the same time.

Thanks
 
mchnhed said:
I've hear a lot about Stripped Inserts, Pulled Threads, Broken Rail Bolts.

I was taught that you never dry assemble a Threaded Part.

Anti-Seize is Best, But at Least Grease, Oil, Lube.

The Type of Anti-Seize is Different for the type of materials used.

But a Regular Type from a Auto Parts Store is Fine for Steel in Steel.
Click to expand...

You bring up another thought that I was wondering about, "never dry assemble a threaded part." What should be used on the bolt threads before I or a table mechanic reassembles the rails??

A friend, not a table mechanic, recommended a product called Lithium. It's found near the WD-40 at stores. Again, I want to use something if it's good for the bolt, and not have a negative consequence on the slate. Or at least the good outweighing the bad.
 
The only threaded fasteners that will seize during assembly is aluminum and stainless. If there is the smallest burr on either they will seize like they are welded and they will not come apart without severe thread damge if you can get them apart at all. If you can use a little bit of heat the absolute best pentrating oil is bees wax. It is far superior than Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, etc.. which are all mediocre at best. I am not a table mechanic but I work with a variety of threaded products made from various materials everyday. To me it sounds like someone may have crossthreaded the fastener otherwise it never should have broke. Even if the fastener broke because it was over tightened it should come out fairly easy, when they are hard to remove it almost always means its crossthreaded or seized due to rust.
 
I had this problem recently myself. The inserts in my slate were not filled with lead, but something considerably more gritty. So almost all the holes were a problem. I had to carefully chase each hole, and managed not to totally ruin any bolts in the process. For that I used only a light amount of threading oil.

In your case, to get that bolt out: maybe some Liquid Wrench, but (obviously) no heat, grind some flat sections on the stud for a pair of 12" vise grips, installed very tight. Go slow, no hammering. JMO.
 
BigAlTheTiger said:
You bring up another thought that I was wondering about, "never dry assemble a threaded part." What should be used on the bolt threads before I or a table mechanic reassembles the rails??

A friend, not a table mechanic, recommended a product called Lithium. It's found near the WD-40 at stores. Again, I want to use something if it's good for the bolt, and not have a negative consequence on the slate. Or at least the good outweighing the bad.
Click to expand...

White Lithium is a Good, Basic Grease. Better than an Oil for Threads.

But an Anti-Seize Compound Would be Much Better. Any Auto Parts Store Like NAPA has Some.

A Light Coat of Grease on the Threads is Not Going To Migrate to the Slate.

What Ever Product You Do Use Be Sure It's a "Penetrating Oil" for Unfreezing Frozen Fasteners. I Like "Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil " Best. Tried the Others.

Again, Cobra Would be the One Who Would Know If These Products Could Harm the Slate.

Try the Easy-Out Dry First.
But I Think It Will Be Hard to Remove Without Treatment.

I Would Also Clean Up the Area as Soon as the Work is Done With Alcohol to Wash Away Any Excess Oils.
 
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fastone371 said:
The only threaded fasteners that will seize during assembly is aluminum and stainless. If there is the smallest burr on either they will seize like they are welded and they will not come apart without severe thread damge if you can get them apart at all. If you can use a little bit of heat the absolute best pentrating oil is bees wax. It is far superior than Liquid Wrench, PB Blaster, etc.. which are all mediocre at best. I am not a table mechanic but I work with a variety of threaded products made from various materials everyday. To me it sounds like someone may have crossthreaded the fastener otherwise it never should have broke. Even if the fastener broke because it was over tightened it should come out fairly easy, when they are hard to remove it almost always means its crossthreaded or seized due to rust.
Click to expand...

Yes, Rust is the Problem.

Steel in Steel Without a Protectant = Future Problems. Anti-Sieze, Grease, Oil, Pipe Dope, Teflon Tape, Locktite

Use a Lubricant Like Anti-Seize (Grease With Additives) or at Least Grease on All Threaded Parts.

Titanium up Can Also Gall and Seize when Tightened.
Also the Use of Stainless Steel Nylon Insert Nuts Can Cause Galling.
https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/materials-and-grades/Thread-galling.aspx
 
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angluse said:
I had this problem recently myself. The inserts in my slate were not filled with lead, but something considerably more gritty. So almost all the holes were a problem. I had to carefully chase each hole, and managed not to totally ruin any bolts in the process. For that I used only a light amount of threading oil.

In your case, to get that bolt out: maybe some Liquid Wrench, but (obviously) no heat, grind some flat sections on the stud for a pair of 12" vise grips, installed very tight. Go slow, no hammering. JMO.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I can't use anything like vise grips because the bolt is broken off inside the slate about 1/2 inch.
 
Beeswax as a Bolt Remover?

Beeswax as a Frozen Fastener Remover

It May Lube But it Will Not Eat the Rust.

Googled It and Found a Recipe for ATF and Acetone Fastener Remover and a Bees Wax Application.


Homemade Penetrating Oil

The general term "penetrating oil" describes a use rather than a specific substance. Although you can find commercial "penetrating oils," any liquid with a low viscosity can help to remove mechanical parts that are stuck in place by rust or other means. A couple of the options are less expensive (and possibly more effective) than the commercial version.

Penetrating oil can help remove fasteners (including washers and nuts) that get stuck due to rust or seizing. You can also use the oil as a cleaner or a corrosion stopper. Uses outside of the mechanic's shop include removing chewing gum and adhesive stickers. The oil also can stop friction on stringed instruments as well. Penetrating oil can also dissolve ice by creeping under it to displace moisture. The name refers to the fact that the oil can penetrate small cracks and crevices.

Beeswax
Sometimes you can use beeswax as a penetrating agent. It's important to obtain real beeswax and not any other kind of wax for this purpose. You can heat the fastener with a torch and then apply a chunk of dried wax. The wax works its way up into the area that needs to be lubricated to release the stuck fastener. One benefit of this method is that the wax is nontoxic and friendly to the environment.

Acetone and ATF
The most common way to make homemade penetrating oil is to combine two chemicals–acetone and Automatic Transition Fluid (ATF)–to form a substance that mimics commercial oil. For safety reasons, you should wear chemical splash goggles and nitrile gloves when you are mixing the flammable and toxic chemicals. You mix the two ingredients together in a 50/50 ratio. You can find acetone and ATF at any auto repair store. According to Machinist's Workshop magazine, this mixture works better than the best penetrating oil available commercially.

I Would't Want to Try This On My Slate.
 
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another pic

IMG_1810.JPGHere is a group shot. One of the ones on the bottom is like the one that is broken off inside the slate I expect.
 
First of all, nothing you put in the hole for lube is going to have an effect on the slate...its rock. Second, the mushroom head on the rail bolts have been machined down to a square 9/16ths head so that a drill/impact driver can tighten them up. Third, all that slate dust in the threads is from the bolt threads scrapping the side walls of the bolt holes, which indicates to me the rails are not matched up to the rail bolt holes in the rails, which means either A) you have miss matched rails to the slate or B) the rails are not mounted in the right places, each rail has a 50/50 chance of mounting up for example, you have 2 left rails, they may both mount to the slate, but have tight rails bolts going in, or switch them and the rail bolts are loose until the final last turns, because they're centered in the holes in the rail and slate. The last problem with the rail bolts is that they have a Brunswick thread on them, which means they have to be Brunswick rail bolts to match the anchor embedded in the slate, you're not going to find a tap & die to match the threads, at least that's been my experiencewith working on old Brunswick antique pool tables, but my experience is on older antiques like 1925 and older.
 
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