Called shot rules when missing called shot but pocketing a ball

[hang-the-9]

Had a discussion in league over the weekend about when you can pass back a shot using called shot rules.

This particular league is 10 ball but is played not by the strict called shot and called safe rules. If you miss your called shot but hook someone that incoming player that is hooked can't just pass it back to you. BUT... if you miss your called shot but in the process make any other ball or your called ball in another pocket, or when playing safe pocket a ball, then the incoming player can pass it back to you.

The reasoning here is that it prevents someone playing a safe by calling some random ball and then pocketing the legal object ball without calling it and leaving a simple hook. Like in the diagram bellow. A player can't call the 2 then just pocket the 1 and hand the table to the other player.

This does make sense to you guys correct? I had to explain this logic to the other team for a bit since they thought you could never pass a shot back.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Had a discussion in league over the weekend about when you can pass back a shot using called shot rules.

This particular league is 10 ball but is played not by the strict called shot and called safe rules. If you miss your called shot but hook someone that incoming player that is hooked can't just pass it back to you. BUT... if you miss your called shot but in the process make any other ball or your called ball in another pocket, or when playing safe pocket a ball, then the incoming player can pass it back to you.

The reasoning here is that it prevents someone playing a safe by calling some random ball and then pocketing the legal object ball without calling it and leaving a simple hook. Like in the diagram bellow. A player can't call the 2 then just pocket the 1 and hand the table to the other player.

This does make sense to you guys correct? I had to explain this logic to the other team for a bit since they thought you could never pass a shot back.

View attachment 465350

This sounds like the World Standardized Rules as far as calling the shot goes. The best strategy under those rules is to always call the ball most likely to go in even if you are thinking "safe". That's so if the ball does go in (by chance), your opponent doesn't have the option of passing the shot back to you.

You could use the WSR, but there is a new rule that the 10 ball must be the last ball made. If it's made early, called or not, it spots up.

 

[hang-the-9]

This sounds like the World Standardized Rules as far as calling the shot goes. The best strategy under those rules is to always call the ball most likely to go in even if you are thinking "safe". That's so if the ball does go in (by chance), your opponent doesn't have the option of passing the shot back to you.

You could use the WSR, but there is a new rule that the 10 ball must be the last ball made. If it's made early, called or not, it spots up.

This may be a good idea to just call a ball at all times, if you don't get it, they are hooked, but if you make it and they are not hooked, since you called it, you get to shoot again. There is not down-side that I can see, the only time you are screwed is if you make the ball and get safe, but in that case they can pass it back to you anyway, so you are increasing your chase at a better outcome for you by a certain % of time when you do make it and leave the ball in the open.

 

[Skratch]

These sound like UPA 10 Ball rules as they've been explained to me. I don't agree with them. It doesn't really prevent hooking a player from a 2-way shot. The intent that the PassBack rule, from my understanding, was to prevent "Lucky" safe shots.

In your example, even if you called the 1-Ball, but purposefully, kick it out and hooking the incoming player, you effectively played a 2-way shot resulting in a safety hook. Under these rules, the incoming player has not choice but to shoot. If these rules prevent your example of the 2-way shot, but allow my example of the 2-way shot then it only shifted the situations around.

The PassBack rule as I've known it works under both situations. If you miss your called shot, the incoming player has choice. PERIOD. So the only way to successfully hook a player is to purposefully shoot a called safe shot. I think the confusion is that with rotation games, if you pocket any ball (normally like 9ball game), you get to continue shooting. With the PassBack rule in effect, you can only continue shooting if you sink the called ball.

Now you've done it. You've even confused me. LOL

 

[garczar]

This sounds like the World Standardized Rules as far as calling the shot goes. The best strategy under those rules is to always call the ball most likely to go in even if you are thinking "safe". That's so if the ball does go in (by chance), your opponent doesn't have the option of passing the shot back to you.

You could use the WSR, but there is a new rule that the 10 ball must be the last ball made. If it's made early, called or not, it spots up.

Yep, those are the current WPA 10b rules. As Bob said you should always call a pocket even if you have no intention of making it. The only pass-back is when a ball is illegally pocketed. I have seen some matches where if you just miss and hook the guy they can pass back. I believe it was the Predator 10b Tour. I totally disagree with that rule. Might as well just play 2-shot roll-out.

 

[hang-the-9]

These sound like UPA 10 Ball rules as they've been explained to me. I don't agree with them. It doesn't really prevent hooking a player from a 2-way shot. The intent that the PassBack rule, from my understanding, was to prevent "Lucky" safe shots.

In your example, even if you called the 1-Ball, but purposefully, kick it out and hooking the incoming player, you effectively played a 2-way shot resulting in a safety hook. Under these rules, the incoming player has not choice but to shoot. If these rules prevent your example of the 2-way shot, but allow my example of the 2-way shot then it only shifted the situations around.

The PassBack rule as I've known it works under both situations. If you miss your called shot, the incoming player has choice. PERIOD. So the only way to successfully hook a player is to purposefully shoot a called safe shot. I think the confusion is that with rotation games, if you pocket any ball (normally like 9ball game), you get to continue shooting. With the PassBack rule in effect, you can only continue shooting if you sink the called ball.

Now you've done it. You've even confused me. LOL

Yes there are called shot and called safe rules, which we do actually play in our Masters league, this is a more relaxed rule league for lower level players (Masters is higher levels and for those serious about the game), in those if you miss any called shot even if nothing goes in, the shot can be passed back to you.

In these rules for a different league night, if you simply miss, the incoming player cannot pass the shot to you. The slight issue (argument you may call it even) is that the other team though you could never pass the shot back even if you make a non-called ball. Which was not true for the reasoning I diagrammed. It prevents cheap safes where you can simply call a ball you know will never go then shoot a ball in without trying to hide it.

 

[Skratch]

Yes there are called shot and called safe rules, which we do actually play in our Masters league, this is a more relaxed rule league for lower level players (Masters is higher levels and for those serious about the game), in those if you miss any called shot even if nothing goes in, the shot can be passed back to you.

In these rules for a different league night, if you simply miss, the incoming player cannot pass the shot to you. The slight issue (argument you may call it even) is that the other team though you could never pass the shot back even if you make a non-called ball. Which was not true for the reasoning I diagrammed. It prevents cheap safes where you can simply call a ball you know will never go then shoot a ball in without trying to hide it.

Yeah, if you're going to play the relaxed version of this rule, it'll be confusing. I don't agree with it, but whatever. So long as both sides agree to play it, then its fair. It's looks to be just as bad as various coaching rules. LOL.

 

[garczar]

Hell, while you're at it just play snooker rules where you can just roll-up on a ball with no rail involved. If call-shot/call-safe were the standard rules for rotation games pool would be deader than it already is. All it does is attempt to remove ALL luck from the game. Even in the lily-white world of pro snooker a s%^t-in ball counts.