Honest effort with a LD cue

[hang-the-9]

To all who believe you get more or less "action" with different tips/shafts, I invite you to do a simple comparison test. Here's my post about it from a few years ago.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=288840&highlight=calibrating

pj
chgo

View attachment 81907

I did a test, my and my friend shot the same shot, with a good number of shafts and tips on the same two cues, shooting several times with each shaft and each shot the same shot so it's not just a simple skill or consistency issue.

This is roughly the shot we tried, low right, and noted how far down table we could get the cueball. The top star is about where we got with a standard shaft and one standard tip, then down to an LD shaft and layered tip is the lower star where we could get to the corner pocket and a few shots even to the short rail. I don't remember the exact ball positioning we used, but I remember shooting the shot and wondering why his was going lower down the table. I thought it may have been the shaft, so he tried with mine, and sure enough, was at the same spot as me. So we started changing up the shafts and found out that the same shaft ended up in close to the same spot for both of us.

This was not just a simple quick thing, we each took at least 3 shots with each shaft and kept track at where the ball hit for each of us. Not a "I feel it is", we actually tested it.



I think it went, from order of least action to most

Standard shaft, one layer tip
Standard shaft, layered tip
LD shaft, one layer tip
LD shaft, layered tip.

Between us we had about 6 different shafts and tip combos to try, so we did.

 

[Gilbertfan81]

Lower deflection

I have made the same switch. What is happening with the lower deflection shaft is without squirt you are hitttin the ball closer to the point of aim. Such being on outside or inside English shot you will be hitting the ball thinner, this should in turn make the object ball absorb less momentum and would give you the perception that it has more spin due to retaining more energy from the initial contact with the object ball. In short the thinner the hit the more momentum that is retained by the cue ball.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have made the same switch. What is happening with the lower deflection shaft is without squirt you are hitttin the ball closer to the point of aim. Such being on outside or inside English shot you will be hitting the ball thinner, this should in turn make the object ball absorb less momentum and would give you the perception that it has more spin due to retaining more energy from the initial contact with the object ball. In short the thinner the hit the more momentum that is retained by the cue ball.

With any shaft, high or low squirt, you have to hit the same spot on the object ball to make the shot. Why do you think that would change?

pj
chgo

 

[michael4]

What is happening with the lower deflection shaft is without squirt you are hitttin the ball closer to the point of aim. Such being on outside or inside English shot you will be hitting the ball thinner,

Patrick beat me to it, ...........all other things being equal, if you hit the OB "thinner", you have changed the direction of the shot....(IMHO)

 

[michael4]

Didn't even consider the Revo. This may be crazy but I think I would have a hard time adjusting to a black shaft.

that's what my girlfriend used to say.....


(sorry, couldn't resist) :embarrassed2:

 

[Bavafongoul]

Science Helps Sometimes.......But Old School Still Prevails!

Not all maple shafts are alike and certainly play differently than LD and also vary in hit
based upon the density of the wood. What was the weight of your cue shaft when new and
is the weight the same today? What is the diameter? What type of tip & hardness vs. the LD?

I've found that maple shafts that are on the light side of the weight scale feel and play different
than heavier maple shafts. I submit a 3.5 oz shaft does not play similar to a 4.25 oz maple shaft.

The anatomy of a pool cue suggests there's a weight proportionality that needs to be considered
and is why I specify the weight of the cue butt & the weight & size of the shafts on my custom cues.

There are LD fans out there and original maple shaft fans as well. I figure if Mr. M could run 526 balls
with maple shafts, 'til someone breaks his record using a LD shaft, I'll stick with heavier maple shafts.

After 57 years of pool playing using maple shafts, I really do not see any reason to switch. I've tried two
different LD cue shaft brands and I prefer the hit, feel and yes, deflection, that maple shafts have.
And personally, I also found 7/8" -1" ivory ferrules and a soft or medium cue tip is the best combo.


Matt B.

 

[hang-the-9]

This is why I giggle a bit at the LD shaft ads, how you play with one depends on how you are used to playing and if it matches your stroke, stance and aim. Players should not just be looking for the least deflecting shaft, but one they can play with.

I think I enjoy beating players that show up with a new cue or shaft every month more than anyone else LOL My brain is going "how did that fancy $600 shaft work for you now" LOL

-- snip --

After 57 years of pool playing using maple shafts, I really do not see any reason to switch. I've tried two
different LD cue shaft brands and I prefer the hit, feel and yes, deflection, that maple shafts have.
And personally, I also found 7/8" -1" ivory ferrules and a soft or medium cue tip is the best combo.


Matt B.

 

[Nine ... corner]

Start with the assumption that it's not really happening - because everything we know says so. So what makes it seem so?

One possibility is that with less squirt you're encouraged to hit farther from center.

Another is "new cue syndrome", which mostly means paying closer attention to how you're hitting the cue ball.

pj
chgo

Excellent point. I experienced this when I switched to a LD shaft in the transition phase. I don't believe they are better, just different. If you have played without one for decades you have already made the necessary adjustments. I have gone back to my regular shafts. What can I say ... Old School.

 

[erhino41]

Deflection is completely conquered by a proper pivot. I just had a new ferrule put on last Friday. Twenty years of tip changes left a 13mm shaft tapered to 12.20 at the tip end. Went back to 13 and switched materials from Ivorine 4 to ivorine 3. Took three or four shots from the head spot to the center diamond on the foot rail to lock into the change in pivot and from there it felt as if nothing changed.

As far as more spin with an LD shaft, not likely. Your layoff has probably eradicated some bad habits that were hindering your stroke. Having to think about the difference in equipment has you focusing on hitting the proper spot on the cueball and using proper stroke mechanics, whereas before "subconscious laziness" had you missing your intended contact point and remember a flawed stroke. Go back and play with your maple shaft and pay attention to your exact tip placement and stroke mechanics, you will find that you spin the ball the same. It's just that the particular LD cue you have may fit you a little better, balance point, weight, taper, tip etc..., so it feels easier.

 

[philly]

Excellent point. I experienced this when I switched to a LD shaft in the transition phase. I don't believe they are better, just different. If you have played without one for decades you have already made the necessary adjustments. I have gone back to my regular shafts. What can I say ... Old School.

The longer I play the game the more I go old school and realize all of the new merchandise is pure hype and marketing. I tried the LD also and went back to the hard maple with old school hard pressed Triangle tips. My hard maple shafts have a long taper and are turned down to 12.25. Many tell me that this configuration is LD. I don't know. If I adjust for squirt or anything else it's done pretty much unconsciously. I just play pool.

Indian/Arrow.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The longer I play the game the more I go old school and realize all of the new merchandise is pure hype and marketing.

Indian/Arrow.

Arrow in a crosswind - would you rather compensate for more or less crosswind? That’s the non-hype benefit of low-squirt. There are drawbacks for some players too.

Other innovations have other pros/cons. “It’s all hype” just means they don’t matter to you.

pj
chgo

 

[philly]

Arrow in a crosswind - would you rather compensate for more or less crosswind? That’s the non-hype benefit of low-squirt. There are drawbacks for some players too.

Other innovations have other pros/cons. “It’s all hype” just means they don’t matter to you.

pj
chgo

Pretty much Patrick. I know some guys that play lights out with anything they have in their hands. Why is that? Yup. I'm a hit a million balls type of guy. I am of the opinion that many players overly complicate the game.

 

[Matt_24]

After 15 or so years of playing with a 314 I went back to a standard Shaft. LDs are easier to move the cue ball, but harder to control. I mean, how much spin do you need. I try to play position where I can use angles to move the ball versus spinning out with extreme English. the maple feels way better as well. I'm still going through an aim adjustment period, but my brain is quickly adjusting. Not a big deal. I sold all of my cues and bought a brand new schon to play with. It feels great.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

LDs are easier to move the cue ball, but harder to control. I mean, how much spin do you need.

It's been said a hundred times or more here (more than once in this thread alone), but I guess it needs to be said again: no cue spins the CB more or less than any other.

pj <- broken record
chgo

 

[KRJ]

Pretty much Patrick. I know some guys that play lights out with anything they have in their hands. Why is that? Yup. I'm a hit a million balls type of guy. I am of the opinion that many players overly complicate the game.

Yep, and hitting a million balls the wrong way it does not help much, does it. yeah, go figure, the "old guy" hates any new technology. Color me shocked. Now, go back and chase those kids off your lawn, Phlly lol

 

[garczar]

It's been said a hundred times or more here (more than once in this thread alone), but I guess it needs to be said again: no cue spins the CB more or less than any other.

pj <- broken record
chgo

Not arguing but a question: Say you have two shafts of same tip diameter and shape. One shaft is LD and the other a solid maple non-ld. With the same amount of tip speed wouldn't the cue with less deflection create more spin? The standard shaft is converting tip speed into squirt whereas the LD is converting it to spin. Not so?? Just seems like the LD shaft would have to spin it more.

 

[garczar]

Not arguing but a question: Say you have two shafts of same tip diameter and shape. One shaft is LD and the other a solid maple non-ld. With the same amount of tip speed wouldn't the cue with less deflection create more spin? The standard shaft is converting tip speed into squirt whereas the LD is converting it to spin. Not so?? Just seems like the LD shaft would have to spin it more.

I just read Dr.Dave's info on this and it cleared it up very well.

 

[jsp]

It's been said a hundred times or more here (more than once in this thread alone), but I guess it needs to be said again: no cue spins the CB more or less than any other.

If you're fixing "the actual tip offset" (as defined by this Dr. Dave TP), then what you say is actually not true.

According to Dr. Dave, the amount of spin is directly proportional to the "effective tip offset", which decreases (for a given actual tip offset) as the amount of squirt increases.

So for two cues with different squirt characteristics it is possible to contact the same point on the CB to make the CB go the exact same direction. And for these two situations the amount of spin would be the same (the effective offsets are equal). But for the higher squirt cue, you have need to be hitting the CB at a different (shallower) angle compared to the low squirt cue, which means the the actual tip offset for the high squirt cue is greater. So if you fix the actual tip offset, then the lower squirt cue would achieve the greater amount of spin.

At least that is my understanding from reading the TP. I could be wrong. Have been before.

 

[hang-the-9]

It's been said a hundred times or more here (more than once in this thread alone), but I guess it needs to be said again: no cue spins the CB more or less than any other.

pj <- broken record
chgo

It does though, I have played with many cues, some are a lot harder to move the cueball with, and I also posted a diagram of shots me and a friend were testing with various shafts and tips. There are clear differences that are not just variances due to the shooter. I had a nice Arthur ivory ferule cue, full 13 mm shaft. Could not do much with the cueball with it. The person that sold it to me said the same thing, nice cue for straight pool, but he got sick of not being able to get the action on the cueball with it.

If you hit a ball with a metal bat, a wood bat or your hand, you can hit them in the exact same spot, but get different results. Same thing with the cueball.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

According to Dr. Dave, the amount of spin is directly proportional to the "effective tip offset", which decreases (for a given actual tip offset) as the amount of squirt increases.

My definition of tip offset as it applies to spin is illustrated in the pic below - the amount of offset as viewed through the CB's center along the actual shot line.

The direction of force ("force vector") must be the same in order to drive the CB to the same target, so it's as if each different cue hits the CB at the same spot from straight on - i.e., with no squirt.

One caveat: the "effective miscue limit" is viewed from the direction the cue is traveling, which differs (slightly, exaggerated below for clarity) for each cue - so a lower squirt cue can produce a little more spin, but only at the maximum limit.

pj
chgo

View attachment 51609