Honor

[DynoDan]

Sorry if I am coming on like ‘an old fogey’, since the newest ‘social media’ generation does not (typically) respect their elders (Hey, I also turned up my collar and grew sideburns in the 50s like Elvis, so I know what I am talking about). BUT, reading these site posts makes me wonder: Has the modern generation of billiards enthusiasts possibly overlooked what really made their ancestors such die-hard enthusiasts? It wasn’t the competition, or the gambling, or even the glory (mostly lost to history). In truth, it was the rare opportunity to display human sociability & honor. We most all fell for that guff in school (‘it’s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game’), but the pros soon figured out that winning IS everything! The rest of us have only honor to fall back on. To win & conduct ourselves honorably (to the best of our ability) is the greatest goal we can possibly aspire to. I would rather be known as ‘that guy who called a foul on himself when the ref wasn’t looking’, than a ‘world champion’. But then, I am old school. How will you choose? How would the venerable player-greats from history we all idolize have chosen?

 

[lfigueroa]

Sorry if I am coming on like ‘an old fogey’, since the newest ‘social media’ generation does not (typically) respect their elders (Hey, I also turned up my collar and grew sideburns in the 50s like Elvis, so I know what I am talking about). BUT, reading thfese site posts makes me wonder: Has the modern generation of billiards enthusiasts possibly overlooked what really made their ancestors such die-hard enthusiasts? It wasn’t the competition, or the gambling, or even the glory (mostly lost to history). In truth, it was the rare opportunity to display human sociability & honor. We most all fell for that guff in school (‘it’s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game’), but the pros soon figured out that winning IS everything! The rest of us have only honor to fall back on. To win & conduct ourselves honorably (to the best of our ability) is the greatest goal we can possibly aspire to. I would rather be known as ‘that guy who called a foul on himself when the ref wasn’t looking’, than a ‘world champion’. But then, I am old school. How will you choose? How would the venerable player-greats from history we all idolize have chosen?

I understand the core of what you’re saying however I believe you are over-romanticizing the past.

I’ve played in rooms, bars, and tournaments going back to the 60’s and Cochran’s and The Palace, so our eras are not so far off. And in all those years I have not been surprised by the slug rack, trouble with the bet, an opponent not calling a self-evident foul on themselves, rigged tournament charts, and so on and so forth.

It is idealizing things to think only of men in tuxedoes playing under chandeliers in glamorous settings. Because even then, if you read “McGoorty,” “The Bank Shot,” The Encyclopedia of Pool Hustlers,” Tom Fox’s articles in SI filed from Johnston City, there was plenty of skullduggery going on.

Even in the era of the tuxedo, when pool was “respectable,” and national tournament results were covered on the front page of the NYTimes, you had Ralph Greenleaf, a world champion and a fabulous player, a falling down drunk.

The game can and should be beautiful — but it has always had a dark underbelly that is undeniable and in some small way, part of its roguish attraction.

Lou Figueroa

 

[336Robin]

This isn't a perfect world.

To quote Earl Strickland. "Pool is a beautiful game played by ugly people."

At least I think it was Earl, so adds to my delusion if not. I think you get it.

 

[Z-Nole]

I believe you're thinking of golf.

 

[logical]

I believe you're thinking of golf.

That will never catch on.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[DJSTEVEZ]

Sorry if I am coming on like ‘an old fogey’, since the newest ‘social media’ generation does not (typically) respect their elders (Hey, I also turned up my collar and grew sideburns in the 50s like Elvis, so I know what I am talking about). BUT, reading these site posts makes me wonder: Has the modern generation of billiards enthusiasts possibly overlooked what really made their ancestors such die-hard enthusiasts? It wasn’t the competition, or the gambling, or even the glory (mostly lost to history). In truth, it was the rare opportunity to display human sociability & honor. We most all fell for that guff in school (‘it’s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game’), but the pros soon figured out that winning IS everything! The rest of us have only honor to fall back on. To win & conduct ourselves honorably (to the best of our ability) is the greatest goal we can possibly aspire to. I would rather be known as ‘that guy who called a foul on himself when the ref wasn’t looking’, than a ‘world champion’. But then, I am old school. How will you choose? How would the venerable player-greats from history we all idolize have chosen?

Dan, certainly there's always room for more honor and more honorable people in the world, and in our sport.
That being said, you've made some broad sweeping generalizations which are tantamount to stereotyping the "newest ‘social media’ generation".
Are you talking about Millennials?
Furthermore, other than your own personal experience and limited perspective on them, you've no basis to judge them.
IMHO, not cool. -Z-

 

[Black-Balled]

Pool has always been associated with the payday, at the highest level, from my observation. Might not be an equal, as far as 'take care of #1' goes...even to the point of compromising long-term benefits.

I would rather be remembered as the champ, than the guy who was nice to play against. 8 days a week.

 

[Swighey]

I don't see too much dishonor in the pro game or the young game. Generally players are pretty honest and lose gracefully, discuss how they would have played a particular shot, and then either get ready for their next match or have a beer or bugger off somewhere else.

I've seen young guys cocky as cocky can be and old guys wearing their oldness both trying to get an edge. Most people play fair though and those who choose not to can be young or old, amateur or pro, pretty or ugly, local or in town for the day, rich or poor, intelligent or dumb as, well dressed or slumming it, and on and on.

Let's not be ageist, or generational with no substance. Just make you look like a grumpy old guy - the young would respect you more if you treated them with the same respect you treat your peers.

 

[Pushout]

I'm old enough and been in the game long enough to have seen both sides of this. There are some people who I would consider "honorable" and others that I definitely would not. Pool seems to be a very egotistical game and ego seems to get the best of a lot of folks, professional and amateur alike. After all these years Efren still remains humble and, I think, honorable.

 

[BRussell]

I would rather be known as ‘that guy who called a foul on himself when the ref wasn’t looking’, than a ‘world champion’. But then, I am old school.

Of the people I play with, all of them who try to get away with fouls are old school, and none of the younger players do that.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Sorry if I am coming on like ‘an old fogey’, since the newest ‘social media’ generation does not (typically) respect their elders (Hey, I also turned up my collar and grew sideburns in the 50s like Elvis, so I know what I am talking about). BUT, reading these site posts makes me wonder: Has the modern generation of billiards enthusiasts possibly overlooked what really made their ancestors such die-hard enthusiasts? It wasn’t the competition, or the gambling, or even the glory (mostly lost to history). In truth, it was the rare opportunity to display human sociability & honor. We most all fell for that guff in school (‘it’s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game’), but the pros soon figured out that winning IS everything! The rest of us have only honor to fall back on. To win & conduct ourselves honorably (to the best of our ability) is the greatest goal we can possibly aspire to. I would rather be known as ‘that guy who called a foul on himself when the ref wasn’t looking’, than a ‘world champion’. But then, I am old school. How will you choose? How would the venerable player-greats from history we all idolize have chosen?

Let me quote my father who dies in 2014, was born in 1920, served all of WW-II in the Merchant Marines, Alastair as an Ensign-Pharmacist-mate-Purser on several Liberty Ships.

"I no longer recognize the Country I grew up in".

Think my father saw change and not all good.

I personally call some social media like Twitter a Social Disease where anything goes. If you a liberal.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Sorry if I am coming on like ‘an old fogey’, since the newest ‘social media’ generation does not (typically) respect their elders (Hey, I also turned up my collar and grew sideburns in the 50s like Elvis, so I know what I am talking about). BUT, reading these site posts makes me wonder: Has the modern generation of billiards enthusiasts possibly overlooked what really made their ancestors such die-hard enthusiasts? It wasn’t the competition, or the gambling, or even the glory (mostly lost to history). In truth, it was the rare opportunity to display human sociability & honor. We most all fell for that guff in school (‘it’s not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game’), but the pros soon figured out that winning IS everything! The rest of us have only honor to fall back on. To win & conduct ourselves honorably (to the best of our ability) is the greatest goal we can possibly aspire to. I would rather be known as ‘that guy who called a foul on himself when the ref wasn’t looking’, than a ‘world champion’. But then, I am old school. How will you choose? How would the venerable player-greats from history we all idolize have chosen?

I feel I must say this first: **In my opinion**: I agree with what you are saying. I made a post a couple of months back about intentionally fouling and quite a few people were up in arms about it. I kind of knew how most people feel about it because I ask lots of people, including my clients I restore Brunswick tables for or sell new Diamond tables to and most people are fine with it. Some recognize they have to do it on rare occasion, but, don't like to.

I would always rather lose with dignity than win in a dishonorable way. Moral fiber is different from person to person. What I know about people in general, sad but true, is that most people will do the wrong thing most of the time. At this point in my life it does not even surprise me anymore. On the other hand it is VERY refreshing to meet someone who is not that way and cares about how they act & treat other people.

Winning is not everything to me. I of course like to be competitive and winning is awesome, but, I am not willing to compromise my dignity to do so. Some people think intentionally fouling is playing within the rules & strategy, I say no, its directly breaking them and is un-sportsman like behavior. I understand we will all end up in some sort of situation where there is no way to make a legit hit on a ball, but, it is not the norm.

People come up with new and creative ways to break the rules all the time. It seems like once they are willing to compromise the rules it gets easier and easier. I hear this one a lot: Well they do it in so many other pro sports like basketball, football and baseball, that does not make it right. "because I gave ball in hand" does not negate the fact that a person broke the rules on purpose. No offense, but, it is my opinion that little kids think this way.

Anyone who has passion for their hobbies or professions, don't want to be known as the type of person who will do anything to win. I prefer to play pool with people who honor the rules and play with integrity. In fact I try hard to live my life by these concepts as well. Good for goodness sake.

Good post and positive rep sent.

Trent from Toledo

 

[Swighey]

"I no longer recognize the Country I grew up in".

My father doesn't recognise the country he grew up in. He couldn't be happier and is delighted that things have moved on. Why on Earth would you want things to be the same as they were? Nostalgia?

 

[Michael Andros]

I feel I must say this first: **In my opinion**: I agree with what you are saying. I made a post a couple of months back about intentionally fouling and quite a few people were up in arms about it. I kind of knew how most people feel about it because I ask lots of people, including my clients I restore Brunswick tables for or sell new Diamond tables to and most people are fine with it. Some recognize they have to do it on rare occasion, but, don't like to.

I would always rather lose with dignity than win in a dishonorable way. Moral fiber is different from person to person. What I know about people in general, sad but true, is that most people will do the wrong thing most of the time. At this point in my life it does not even surprise me anymore. On the other hand it is VERY refreshing to meet someone who is not that way and cares about how they act & treat other people.

Winning is not everything to me. I of course like to be competitive and winning is awesome, but, I am not willing to compromise my dignity to do so. Some people think intentionally fouling is playing within the rules & strategy, I say no, its directly breaking them and is un-sportsman like behavior. I understand we will all end up in some sort of situation where there is no way to make a legit hit on a ball, but, it is not the norm.

People come up with new and creative ways to break the rules all the time. It seems like once they are willing to compromise the rules it gets easier and easier. I hear this one a lot: Well they do it in so many other pro sports like basketball, football and baseball, that does not make it right. "because I gave ball in hand" does not negate the fact that a person broke the rules on purpose. No offense, but, it is my opinion that little kids think this way.

Anyone who has passion for their hobbies or professions, don't want to be known as the type of person who will do anything to win. I prefer to play pool with people who honor the rules and play with integrity. In fact I try hard to live my life by these concepts as well. Good for goodness sake.

Good post and positive rep sent.

Trent from Toledo

Amen. :yeah:

 

[Jimmy C-Note]

My father doesn't recognise the country he grew up in. He couldn't be happier and is delighted that things have moved on. Why on Earth would you want things to be the same as they were? Nostalgia?

Change does not always mean better, thats why some things should stay the way they were.
I would love to hear, specifically why your Father is delighted that things have moved on as you put it.
Moved on from what?

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Change does not always mean better, thats why some things should stay the way they were.
I would love to hear, specifically why your Father is delighted that things have moved on as you put it.
Moved on from what?

This makes me wonder as well. From my perspective our society as a whole has gone backwards. People think because of our technological advances that we are so far ahead. I hate to say it, but, the majority of the people here in the good ole USA are uneducated and LOST....

Trent

 

[pwd72s]

This makes me wonder as well. From my perspective our society as a whole has gone backwards. People think because of our technological advances that we are so far ahead. I hate to say it, but, the majority of the people here in the good ole USA are uneducated and LOST....

Trent

This old fart, age 74, agrees. Which opens up the topic of the decline of educational standards. A high School degree of 50 years ago being equal to a State college degree of today. There are exceptions of course.

Honor? I don't get amateurs who won't call a foul on themselves. What? In it for the money? If that's the case, better find something more lucrative to cheat at.

 

[BRussell]

Those horrible kids these days smoke less, commit less crime, have fewer unwanted pregnancies, have higher IQs, and use less drugs, all while having lower-paying jobs, less secure retirement, and higher cost of living.

 

[logical]

Get off my lawn!!

 

[336Robin]

Those horrible kids these days smoke less, commit less crime, have fewer unwanted pregnancies, have higher IQs, and use less drugs, all while having lower-paying jobs, less secure retirement, and higher cost of living.

There's always the smart ass! :wink: