Siming Chen vs Donny Mills

This is REAL easy to settle.

Get together another $20,000.00 together amongst yourself and all the other woman-hating AZers, and back Donny for another go at Siming.

If you think he's the favorite because of the penis he has, then put him back in the box. Lotta money to be made.You backing him should take all the pressure right off.

As far as all the people who actually watched the match and understood what they were seeing, we saw that she outplayed him in virtually EVERY part of the game except the break.

She shot straighter..
She kicked better.
She played better safes.

If you need further proof of the relative importance of the break versus all these other elements, you need look no further than Efren Reyes. He never had any better than an "okay" break, and he was a favorite to beat anyone under Earl in a gambling match. And by the looks of the "Color of Money" match, it turns out that he could hang with Earl, too.

Betting on your guy to outrun a much better player based purely on the break is the sucker bet of all sucker bets.
Roalmfao, boy you missed your calling , you should have been a comedian , I don't know what you were watching but she barely beat him , money would have fallen from the sky on Donnie had he won the second set
They played pretty even from what I see and the stats also bare that out if you had given the Fargo line out you lost , ,
Plenty of matches are won by the better breaker as one pro told me we all can run out it's a break contest

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Saying Ms. Chen is subsidized by her nation does not mean that I am a chauvinist it merely is an observation and players in the West have no such support.

this claim gets thrown around a lot, sometimes about practically all non-american players. not saying it isn't true in the case of ms. chen, but do you have any source to back it up with?
 
I guess YOUR poolroom determines the playing ability of all women. You really cant make this stuff up...or can you
Jason

What we can garner from this fact is that woman in Los Angeles Ca. are not subsidized by the state.

Women can't be compared equally if their environments were totally different.

Are American woman gonna sacrifice, practice and have to work a day job all for a chance to win the paltry purses in professional pool?

When women compete and win against top men on an ongoing basis they will have reached parity. Citing outliers in the data is talk.
 
If it does happen, I could care less. In my pool room the top female player gets 12-5 from the top male player in one pocket and can't win.
Oh my lord. You must the elite champion that the world has never heard of and God's gift to man. :D

PlaintiveHilariousBasil-small.gif
 
this claim gets thrown around a lot, sometimes about practically all non-american players. not saying it isn't true in the case of ms. chen, but do you have any source to back it up with?

I’m glad you said it, because I’m sure a lot of us were thinking it.

And if it is true, to what extent is the support? From what I’ve heard, it’s not like they’re paying a salary. It’s more like equipment money and travel expenses to tournaments.
 
err... right. didn't say anything about siming chen or even pool. it's about chinese olympic athletes.

Pool is so far down the pecking order that it was not specifically mentioned, Golf was.

It's the way it works in China. Had a friend of mine that is from mainland China confirm that's its true.

The Nationalist Chinese subsidize pool too as far as I know. Siming Chen is from Mainland Communist China and in a Communist country the government is involved in everything.
 
I’m glad you said it, because I’m sure a lot of us were thinking it.

And if it is true, to what extent is the support? From what I’ve heard, it’s not like they’re paying a salary. It’s more like equipment money and travel expenses to tournaments.

No in fact I believe that there is far more support.
 
What we can garner from this fact is that woman in Los Angeles Ca. are not subsidized by the state.

Women can't be compared equally if their environments were totally different.

Are American woman gonna sacrifice, practice and have to work a day job all for a chance to win the paltry purses in professional pool?

When women compete and win against top men on an ongoing basis they will have reached parity. Citing outliers in the data is talk.

You couldnt be further off from the truth.
Jason
 
From what I’ve heard, it’s not like they’re paying a salary. It’s more like equipment money and travel expenses to tournaments.

This is closer to the truth. Pool is so far down the pecking order that any subsidy would be minimal or token amounts. On other hand, snooker is a different story after the Ding phenomenon. Big money in snooker compared to pool.
Same thing was said about the European countries but I think some pros when asked said it was more like rewards for winning certain tournaments or representing their country in events like World Games where they would be covered.
The exception may be some countries like Poland where they pick pool/billiards as major sport to focus on.
Reality is pool is just such a relatively minor sport in the world that countries are just not ready to invest big money because of the -ve ROI.
Even in Philippines which is considered hotbed of pool, it is not the top 3 sports and cannot compete with basketball, boxing, soccer in popularity :smile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_in_the_Philippines#Summary_by_discipline
 
This is closer to the truth. Pool is so far down the pecking order that any subsidy would be minimal or token amounts. On other hand, snooker is a different story after the Ding phenomenon. Big money in snooker compared to pool.
Same thing was said about the European countries but I think some pros when asked said it was more like rewards for winning certain tournaments or representing their country in events like World Games where they would be covered.
The exception may be some countries like Poland where they pick pool/billiards as major sport to focus on.
Reality is pool is just such a relatively minor sport in the world that countries are just not ready to invest big money because of the -ve ROI.
Even in Philippines which is considered hotbed of pool, it is not the top 3 sports and cannot compete with basketball, boxing, soccer in popularity :smile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_in_the_Philippines#Summary_by_discipline

I think your copy is a little short of facts.
 
You couldnt be further off from the truth.
Jason

Please define the truth for me. If women wanted to compete with the men they would all be making a bee line for Derby City where they are very welcome.

This is not for the most part the case.
 
It's the way it works in China Had a friend of mine that is from mainland China confirm that's its true.
No in fact I believe that there is far more support.

so far it's just hearsay and speculation.

i don't question that the chinese government sponsors athletes, but i think there needs to be a solid source before one claims that a female 9-ball player is subsidized. after all, american pool is still rather obscure in china.
 
Yes, that is exactly the issue. Women in pool, women playing high level pool, is delayed, just like women's participation in lots of areas in society has been delayed. That's why we celebrate every achievement that brings the two genders closer in performance in the areas where physicality isn't the barrier.

The question then is, what is preventing women's pool from reaching it's maximum potential at any given time? We agree the overall level increases for both men and women each decade and era? Yes? If so, then women will always be playing catch up and will never meet or beat the men.

That said, we would have to identify something that is keeping women's pool down in the current era. I know of no such thing. I argued there is nothing hold them back, impeding their growth or development to account for the proved skill gap.

In fact, I argued that compared to the men, the women actually have more incentives, benefits and the infrastructure to advance than men do. Having a tour, having sponsorship and such.


I would interested to see what the IPT fargo rate performances were. That said there were a handful of women against well over a hundred men.

What does the quantity matter? That undermines your pro-Fargo position. The women that were there were the best of the best women players. No one was left out.

So yes the IPT was certainly a chance for men and women to compete under the same conditions. But the odds were stacked against them even if they had had a higher average skill level. Still the best women pros held their own even if they lost.


What was it that was stacked against anyone at the IPT?


The IPT was fair and square. No advantages to anyone during the tournament.

The round robin format allowed the ladies and anyone for that matter, to avoid a fluke or blow-out to skew perceptions and conclusions.

If anything, the women got a big time pass being invited to the tournament to begin with, not having to qualify, while many men pros were invited also, the vast majority of the invited men proved their invite by their performance in the tournament (less the HOF's who were obviously past their prime). The women on the other hand, proved their invite to be a hand-out essentially.

It was very telling to watch many male pros who had to qualify for the tournament basically demolish these female players who got a free-pass to be in the IPT.

Had the IPT survived, the vast majority of the women players would have been ranked out of tour-card position and lost their place on the tour. It would have taken a season or two because having a tour card guaranteed entry into tournaments where they were automatically willing the default number of dollars, but it was inevitable due to the qualifiers who would push them out.


Anyway, at best all you say is that they are better now. I agree they are better now not only relative to the past, but relative to past male vs female gap and the current male level of play. They did close the gap some, but it's still a large gap. And, I will go as far as to say they will NEVER close the gap entirely and achieve parity with the men. That's not some big daring statement. I say so with the knowledge that if they do, it will be the first time in competitive anything that it has happened. Since such a thing has never been observed yet, it's safe to say it never will and there's a lot of real science that supports the reasons why.

I bring that up because you mentioned the lack of a physical factor in pool. Your statement acknowledges that strength and speed does matter. I agree and even said that women do compete closer with the men as the physical factor is decreased. Less athleticism needed, closer competition relatively speaking.

But this does not make up for the gap. Chess is a great example. Darts too. There are non-physical factors too. Men's brains are superior at processing 3d space. Men understand space, proportion, distance and such much better than women. They are also better at mentally processing speed and timing. This is likely a product of evolution, as men had to be able to throw, sling or shoot things accurately if they wanted to hunt and eat and survive. Men have better hand-eye-coordination. Not only that, but how quickly a male hones those skills is much sooner than a female. Male players pick up the game faster, which in a structured training means that men will have more practice and training time for higher level skills.

This spatial processing advantage for men is also why men dominate in engineering, particularly mechanical. Men also have a huge advantage in conceptualizing abstract constructs. Which is why men are more advanced on average than women in mathematics and why they also dominate computer programming.

All of this allows men to "see" angles better, space better, speed better, and also the visualization of the shot in a more realistic and real way prior to executing the shot. The visualization of shots in pool play back more like a real movie or video in the male mind than they do in the female mind, again on average.


There's exceptions to everything and some very exceptional women. However, on average this is the truth. And, when speaking about the best-of-the-best, it again is always, exclusively men.



This is backed by science and experimentation.


That is why the gap will never be closed completely.


I used to believe like some do on this forum. The way I used to rationalize it was ....the CB is 5.5-6.0 ounces. 99.9% of shots require a stroke speed that is already within the ability of women to physically execute. Even breaks now as the power break is essentially dead thanks to better balls, rack templates and knowledge of softer control breaks. I assumed stroke precision was not a matter of physical strength or size. Something that women could master as equally as the men.

The table is at a height that poses no disadvantage for women. There are male players who are quite short who won major tournaments. There is nothing about the weight of the balls, size of the table or cues, the weight of anything or anything about the nature of the game which favors men, that is favors size, strength or athleticism. Women can interface with pool just as well as men with no hindrance.


That said - I was 100% convinced that a woman should be able to equal a man in pool. There's nothing holding them back.

But I followed pool for years, and after 30 years of watching men and women and comparing there was no way. The results, which is the evidence did not support my conclusions or theory. There was something else involved here. So I began to read on the subject. I began to read a lot of psychology studies and the such that focused on male/female brain differences. This was an eye opener, as there are real significant differences and these differences directly impact performance.


I like to see the women advance as much as possible. But at the same time I am not hoping for the impossible or deluding myself with fantasies.
 
so far it's just hearsay and speculation.

i don't question that the chinese government sponsors athletes, but i think there needs to be a solid source before one claims that a female 9-ball player is subsidized. after all, american pool is still rather obscure in china.

American pool is obscure in China? I think not. My understanding is that pool was very popular and on an upswing and then lately its been tapering off.

Asia is where the future of pool lies. It certainly is not the US where we are losing pool halls right and left.
 
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