I thought it would be closer to the green line (actually should have extended it from the contact point).
My Touch of Inside Experience
- Thread starter mjdoutdoors
- Start date
I thought it would be closer to the green line (actually should have extended it from the contact point).
No, the CB only "feels" the force transmitted by the stick, not the angle of the stick itself.
pj
chgo
Tip offset vs torque line
If a shift is parallel to the reference aim line then the tip offset on the surface of the ball is EQUAL to the torque line. The torque line is measured from the center of mass of the ball. In this case the torque line is LESS than the tip offset because the shift is not truly parallel. The tip offset is more than the torque line meaning the cueing line will eventually converge with the reference aim line. CJ described his shift as parallel but with the butt leading with the tip lagging.
Other descriptions from him talk about using only "a hair" of inside. Quite simply he shifted the cue only a minuscule amount but never wants to have the cue aimed divergently, or away from the reference line. From that point he tries to avoid any action that would spin the ball. He blunt hits through contact trying to apply a "felt sense" amount of deflection depending on shot distance, speed and position requirements. He deflects the cue ball onto a convergent path. By shading the cue line slightly laterally, deflection is guaranteed. That deflection will create a shot path that crosses the original aim line (converges).
When you realize that torque line length determines the actual amount of side, not the amount of tip offset, you also "real eyes" that you don’t need to develop a feel for how to deliver different amounts of deflection, to connect to the pocket. When simple cueing can create the convergent line without needing to develop a feel for different amounts of deflection, a consistent cue delivery can be used instead.
The acid test for that stroke is the reaction of the cue ball off contact. On all shots where the object ball is cut, the cue ball has no side spin off contact. The length of the torque line determines that reaction. The second part of the test is that the cueing line used must converge with the original reference line in addition to creating a very small torque line. With both conditions met the tip offset is always larger than the torque line.
The real secret to making this work is finding the right combination of original aim line and convergent cueing line. I plan to reveal the key to using this cueing method in the next few months. It is designed to use with any aiming system that generates a ghost ball center ball line as the original reference line.
This explanation is simply meant to provide insight into what CJ was trying to describe and why it was a "feel" system, as played by him.
If a shift is parallel to the reference aim line then the tip offset on the surface of the ball is EQUAL to the torque line. The torque line is measured from the center of mass of the ball. In this case the torque line is LESS than the tip offset because the shift is not truly parallel. The tip offset is more than the torque line meaning the cueing line will eventually converge with the reference aim line. CJ described his shift as parallel but with the butt leading with the tip lagging.
Other descriptions from him talk about using only "a hair" of inside. Quite simply he shifted the cue only a minuscule amount but never wants to have the cue aimed divergently, or away from the reference line. From that point he tries to avoid any action that would spin the ball. He blunt hits through contact trying to apply a "felt sense" amount of deflection depending on shot distance, speed and position requirements. He deflects the cue ball onto a convergent path. By shading the cue line slightly laterally, deflection is guaranteed. That deflection will create a shot path that crosses the original aim line (converges).
When you realize that torque line length determines the actual amount of side, not the amount of tip offset, you also "real eyes" that you don’t need to develop a feel for how to deliver different amounts of deflection, to connect to the pocket. When simple cueing can create the convergent line without needing to develop a feel for different amounts of deflection, a consistent cue delivery can be used instead.
The acid test for that stroke is the reaction of the cue ball off contact. On all shots where the object ball is cut, the cue ball has no side spin off contact. The length of the torque line determines that reaction. The second part of the test is that the cueing line used must converge with the original reference line in addition to creating a very small torque line. With both conditions met the tip offset is always larger than the torque line.
The real secret to making this work is finding the right combination of original aim line and convergent cueing line. I plan to reveal the key to using this cueing method in the next few months. It is designed to use with any aiming system that generates a ghost ball center ball line as the original reference line.
This explanation is simply meant to provide insight into what CJ was trying to describe and why it was a "feel" system, as played by him.
I don't think so. When applying BHE, which you appear to be illustrating here. You line up the stick as you would to shoot straight at the ghost ball, and then pivot it. Once you make that pivot, the force felt by the cue ball will be from a line parallel to the stick and though center mass, as illustrated here with the green arrow. The cue ball feels this force without any reference to the object ball, only to the distance from its center mass.
Sorry, but this is simply wrong. The force felt by the CB - a combination of forward stick momentum and sideways squirt - is in the direction the CB goes, which with side spin is not parallel with the stick. And, of course it can't be through center mass or there would be no spin.
And, by the way, I'm not illustrating BHE or any particularly kind of squirt compensation - they all end up in the same place.
pj
chgo
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Here's something I've posted before illustrating how the force from different shafts at different squirt correction angles has the same physical effect on the CB. The effective tip offset (what you called the "torque line") determines the amount of spin.
If we disregard the stick's angle and simply think of the CB's center as being in line with its direction of travel, then the amount of tip offset ("torque line") is visible for any cue.
Obviously (I hope) the "no squirt" cue is theoretical.
pj
chgo
P.S. The direction of the stick's transmitted force (what you called the "TOI line") is always parallel with the CB's movement - it's what makes the CB go in that direction - so "convergence" is impossible.
Attachments
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I believe it's more like this....there is more than just one simple force at work here. The distance between cb center mass and shaft center mass factors into the squirt angle. You can see in the "high squirt" shot how angles 1, 2, and 3 add up to 90°, and angle 3 is the squirt angle relative to the direction of of the shaft.
Sorry so sloppy. No fancy software available.
Sorry so sloppy. No fancy software available.
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I don't see the difference. What forces do you think the CB "feels" besides the stick's forward momentum and squirt - which combine into a single force through the CB?
pj
chgo
I'd say it feels at least 2 separate forces (the force from cue tip impact that heads straight to its core, and the friction between itself and the cue tip trying to push it along the stroke path). The cb then moves according to the direction and strength of these forces. The end result is one cb direction, but that doesn't necessarily mean the cb only feels one force. If we were cue balls we'd know, like getting knocked off balance -- we can feel our body moving back and to the side at the same time. I think my biggest feeling, if I were a cb, would be the feeling that I get used and abused all too often! Lol
Toi
Has anyone ever met Patrick Johnson in person or seen him play? Has anyone taken lessons from him? Has over 18,000 post on az but only criticism for what others are doing and why they are wrong.
Has anyone ever met Patrick Johnson in person or seen him play? Has anyone taken lessons from him? Has over 18,000 post on az but only criticism for what others are doing and why they are wrong.
Do you think the combined forces don't act on the CB as if they're a single force emanating from the contact point parallel with the CB's direction of travel, as I show it?
pj
chgo
Did you look at my drawing? I did not say it went through center mass. I said it was the distance between the line of the stick and a parallel line through center mass.
If you are not showing BHE English, what does the vertical orientation of the crosshairs on the cue ball represent?
I cannot make sense of this drawing. In the no squirt example you are showing a stick offset from the center of the cue ball by a full tip diameter and calling it "no squirt". How does that work?
Nope. I believe what you're show is the result of a combination of forces that emanate from the contact point.
I have. He's a good player and a good person to hang out with.
He is saying that if you had a zero deflection shaft that is what the alignment would be.
Saying the CB "feels" one force is a shorthand way of saying it "reacts as if there's" one force.
On a side note, you say there are two forces as I do, but your second force is a force through the CB's center (like when two balls collide) whereas mine is squirt. I don't believe the force through the CB's center is significant unless there's little to no friction between the objects (as in ball/ball contact). But conversely, with tip/ball contact there's little to no slippage between the objects - I think this virtually eliminates that "carom" force.
pj
chgo
Right - and why I said, "Obviously (I hope) the "no squirt" cue is theoretical."
I'm also saying the CB "acts as if" you're hitting it with a no-squirt cue pointed straight ahead, regardless of the cue's orientation.
pj
chgo
I guess I misread your comment - but it's wrong anyway. Tip offset ("torque line") isn't measured from the contact point to a line through centerball parallel with the stick - it's measured from the contact point to a line through centerball parallel with the CB's direction.
BHE (backhand English) is just one method for finding the correct cue angle to compensate for squirt - there are other methods that do the same thing. My illustration just shows a cue angled to correct for squirt - it doesn't suggest how it got there (BHE or some other method).
pj
chgo
P.S. Even TOI must put the cue on the same line that BHE puts it on - or the shot will miss.
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