Mosconi's 526 run POOL TABLE questions

[K2Kraze]

I guess I'm going out on a limb here.....

I’ll start this slew of comments surely to follow:

Yeah - that’s a limb you’re out on for sure.

I almost choked reading this post....

Do you, or anyone else for that matter, really believe that everyone that signed the affidavit for that event was in on some sort of spoof or look-the-other-direction regarding reasonable rules known to them all? A conspiracy for fun and games? All those people - knowing it was Willie Mosconi - his character and everything else people knew of the man for decades leading up to that evening....really?

Gee, for that matter, you can go crazy with all sorts of he said and she said about the 526 run. Perhaps Willie was using a laser guided cue they were also keeping from us about the record run during an exhibition.

So little respect and acceptance of great things by great people from an era of play that most can’t fathom - so easy to sling the cheap and filthy bs.

Come on. Really?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hitman22]

Boredom in knee deep shit....pathetic ...

 

[Johnny Rosato]

If 10 people measure a pocket, how many different answers will you get?

 

[Z-Nole]

If 10 people measure a pocket, how many different answers will you get?

So you're saying pool players are like fishermen?

Did Danny sign the affidavit?

 

[WildWing]

Now the part that really drives me nuts about this is Danny said to me and many others on numerous occasions that during Mosconi's 526 ball run several times a ball hung up in the pocket and it effectively was given to him to continue his run. He may have been well into the 3-400's when it happened but if in fact what Danny says is true than we've all been misled into believing this was possible and with the witness affidavit who'd question it.

Well, that's quite interesting, not sure what to make of it. Willie himself said during the interview with the exhibition with Caras is that he ran 526, got tired, and quit. Other accounts have him definitely missing a ball in a corner pocket to end the run.

This, if true, suggests that he never really made it anywhere near 526. What do you believe? I know this; Danny D is still around and could answer the question if he indeed said that in the first place. Anybody know him well?

All the best,
WW

 

[lfigueroa]

Well, that's quite interesting, not sure what to make of it. Willie himself said during the interview with the exhibition with Caras is that he ran 526, got tired, and quit. Other accounts have him definitely missing a ball in a corner pocket to end the run.

This, if true, suggests that he never really made it anywhere near 526. What do you believe? I know this; Danny D is still around and could answer the question if he indeed said that in the first place. Anybody know him well?

All the best,
WW

Mosconi missed and said so many times.

Once he said otherwise and I don't know if the Alzhiemers that eventually killed him was kicking in then or what.

As to DD... well, first I'd ask if he was there -- don't recall his name on the affidavit. Already knowing the answer from there I'd just have to say that: envy is a disease almost as bad as Alzheimers.

Lou Figueroa

 

[AtLarge]

Mosconi missed and said so many times.

Once he said otherwise and I don't know if the Alzhiemers that eventually killed him was kicking in then or what. ...

As I suggested last month, it's possible that he just confused the ending of his run of 526 (a miss) with the ending of one of his other long runs where he just quit, such as a run of 589 described by Charlie Ursitti.

 

[jay helfert]

I guess I'm going out on a limb here because in all the research I have done on this topic, I have to rely on my close friend Danny Diliberto who claims to have witnessed the event and states in no short words "it was a fixed exhibition".

The owner of the club intended on the exhibition being played on a standard 4x1/2 by 9 but because the table was made by another manufacturer other than Brunswick that table was scrapped for the 4x8 Brunswick, with drop pockets and extremely slow cloth and mammoth 5 1/4 pockets.

Now the part that really drives me nuts about this is Danny said to me and many others on numerous occasions that during Mosconi's 526 ball run several times a ball hung up in the pocket and it effectively was given to him to continue his run. He may have been well into the 3-400's when it happened but if in fact what Danny says is true than we've all been misled into believing this was possible and with the witness affidavit who'd question it. How about someone else that was there and seen what really happened. Charlie Ursitti would also be a great resource for the truth.

I honestly think that John Schmidt is a much better straight pool player than many of the guys from that era. We've been watching John all month at Bullshooters try and break Mosconi's record only to fall victim to the hanger at one point on ball 398. Here's a guy running 1000+ balls a day for a month with only a handful of misses in between. If you're not the best candidate for having the highest recorded run I don't know who is but I think in a match of Mosconi versus Schmidt, I put my coin on Schmidt. Stronger more consistent player on tougher conditions. Just my $0.02 though.

Danny was nowhere near Springfield, Ohio on that day in 1954. He was a teenager in Buffalo, NY trying to learn how to box. I love Danny but he comes up with some interesting stories from time to time. I grew up in Dayton, Ohio and I knew Russ Maddox and George Rood, who bought that poolroom from the previous owner in 1958 or '59. They also both knew Mosconi well and Rood had competed against him before. They told me in no uncertain terms that Mosconi did in fact run the 526 in front of many witnesses and only missed the last ball. It may have been on a break shot. I'm not 100% certain about that though.

I was in that poolroom on High St. in Springfield in the early 60's and there was some kind of plaque on the wall commemorating Mosconi's run. I think it was by the table he made the run on. There may have been a copy of the signed affidavit up there as well. I do remember seeing that document one time when I was a newbie in pool. Willie's run was often talked about back then in Southwestern Ohio poolrooms and I never heard anyone talking about him missing during the run. It seemed like everyone knew someone who was there that day.

 

[lfigueroa]

Danny was nowhere near Springfield, Ohio on that day in 1954. He was a teenager in Buffalo, NY trying to learn how to box. I love Danny but he comes up with some interesting stories from time to time. I grew up in Dayton, Ohio and I knew Russ Maddox and George Rood, who bought that poolroom from the previous owner in 1958 or '59. They also both knew Mosconi well and Rood had competed against him before. They told me in no uncertain terms that Mosconi did in fact run the 526 in front of many witnesses and only missed the last ball. It may have been on a break shot. I'm not 100% certain about that though.

I was in that poolroom on High St. in Springfield in the early 60's and there was some kind of plaque on the wall commemorating Mosconi's run. I think it was by the table he made the run on. There may have been a copy of the signed affidavit up there as well. I do remember seeing that document one time when I was a newbie in pool. Willie's run was often talked about back then in Southwestern Ohio poolrooms and I never heard anyone talking about him missing during the run. It seemed like everyone knew someone who was there that day.

According to R.A. Dyer in "The Hustler & the Champ" it was a cut on the six ball to a corner pocket that jawed out and was the fifth ball of the final rack.

Lou Figueroa

 

[jay helfert]

According to R.A. Dyer in "The Hustler & the Champ" it was a cut on the six ball to a corner pocket that jawed out and was the fifth ball of the final rack.

Lou Figueroa

That's probably right. I do remember the part about missing a shot into the corner pocket, supposedly on a relatively easy cut shot. He just misread it, which could happen after running all those balls. His mind probably went to sleep on him for a moment, and he was also probably tired of shooting and ready to miss.

 

[mr3cushion]

That's probably right. I do remember the part about missing a shot into the corner pocket, supposedly on a relatively easy cut shot. He just misread it, which could happen after running all those balls. His mind probably went to sleep on him for a moment, and he was also probably tired of shooting and ready to miss.

Jay; this looks like some legit info.

From an article in National Billiard News

by Dick Hatfield

Willie Mosconi, in Springfield, Ohio, March 1954, ran 526 balls in a row for a world record that still stands today. His challenger was Earl "Jake" Bruney, an accomplished hometown pool shark.

The site of the action was East High Billiards, 111 ½ East High in the heart of downtown Springfield, on the second floor above Reco Sporting Goods. "East High" was a first class pool hall run by a first class gentleman named Bob Haas. The only criticizable thing Bob ever did was allow underage guys like me into his establishment. I was 16 - you were supposed to be 18 or older.

The first time I saw Mosconi, I thought he looked like a movie star: impeccably dressed in a tailor-made suit, blue cashmere topcoat, black fedora, and polished black shoes. He was a big hit with everybody, very personable, made small talk with the regulars, and occasionally fed a handful of nickels in the pinball machines. He was a regular guy.

Bruney safe-broke the balls at 8:00pm that March 18th, Mosconi shot second. They safe-shot back and forth a few times, and then Jake found his way clear to pocket the only three balls he'd make that night. After that, Willie took command of that 4X8 Brunswick for the next four and a half hours. At 12:50am, he missed the 527th shot - a six-ball in the corner. It tottered at the pocket, but wouldn't fall.

A number of Springfielders witnessed this record-breaking performance, including A.Y. "Lefty" Thomas, who made a sketch of the missed shot. Lefty will also authenticate this narrative. About fifty of the witnesses signed an affidavit verifying the high run.
Although at least three claim to have bought the legendary table that Willie and Jake shot on that night, it's actually owned by George Rude? (Rood), who subsequently part-owned the East High. Later in the 1950s, George played Willie several times in exhibition matches at East High. On a couple of those occasions I took tickets and sold Mosconi's books.








================================================================================
This is by Mike Shamos:

The following facts can be established through contemporaneous
evidence: On March 19, 1954 at the East High Billiard Club in
Springfield, Ohio, Mosconi played an announced exhibition against Earl
J. Bruney, a local Springfield player. (Usually Mosconi advertised in
advance that he was going to give an exhibition but it was up to the
local room to determine who his opponent would be.) Mosconi beat
Bruney, 200-3, in the exhibition on an 8-foot Brunswick table. The
length of his unfinished run was not recorded, but he was urged to
continue. After approximately two additional hours, he reached 526 and
missed a shot. It is also not recorded what type of shot he missed on,
and recollections of various people are contradictory on this point.

At least 36 people were present at the end of the run, since they
signed a statement attesting to the run on the stationery of the East
High Billiard Club. The Billiard Archive has a copy of this document.
It is signed by, among 35 others, "Earl J. Bruney (opponent)". Howard
Barrett did not sign it. This does not mean he wasn't there, just that
he may have had his reasons for not signing.

While Barrett says in the current Pool & Billiard Magazine that
Mosconi ended his regulation game with a run of only 33, I consider it
unlikely (but not impossible) in view of the fact that Bruney only
scored 3 points. Mosconi always promised the room owner that he would
run 100 in an exhibition. If he did not run 100 on his way to a total
of 200, and his last run was 33, he must have taken at least three
innings and probably more. That means Bruney would have had at least
two chances to shoot and we would expect him to score more than 3
points. It is more likely that Mosconi broke for Bruney, Bruney ran 3
and then Mosconi ran 200. He felt in the zone, and so was persuaded to
continue to try to break his previous record of 365, which he set in
Wilmongton, NC in 1953. (This paragraph is just speculation.)

The New York Times reported the story on March 21, 1954. The BCA
recognized the run as an exhibition high run several days after it
occurred. The requirement for exhibition high runs back then was that
the run must have occurred in an announced exhibition on a table
satisfying BCA specifications and been witnessed. The reason for
requiring announcement in advance is so the public, and especially the
press, are notified and have a chance to attend. If the exhibition is
not announced, but is made known only to close friends of the player,
you can imagine that all sorts of questionable records would be
claimed. There is no category of BCA record for practice runs, since
these do not occur in a competitive situation and are usually not
witnessed. There are several stories of practice runs in the 700s.
Whether or not they occurred, they are not records.

Later in his life, Mosconi, apparently too proud to admit that he
ever missed a shot (admittedly a rare event), started telling people
that he just got tired and put his cue down, and so it is written in
his (auto)biography, "Willie's Game." But it's just not true.

Much has been made of the fact that the run of 526 was made on an
8-foot table. However, I have never seen a convincing argument that
such a run is easier on an 8-foot table than on a 9-footer. While the
shots are shorter on a smaller table, the chance of the balls getting
tied up is greater, particularly right after a break shot. There is no
question that such a run is easier on an 8 or 9-foot table than on a
10-foot table. (Straight pool high run on a 10-foot table: 309.
Amazingly, this record was set by Crane and TIED by Mosconi.)

The story surrounding Mike Eufemia's claimed run of 625 is very
complicated. The upshot is that it is not recognized by the BCA
because it did not meet the standards for an exhibition high run
record.
Mike Shamos
Chairperson, BCA Statistics and Records Committee


This link is from the National Museum of American
History's website. They have a collection of Willie Mosconi artifacts that was
donated by Willie`s wife Flora. Included on this particular page is a link to a
scan of the official court affidavit attesting to Mosconi`s record 526 ball
run. You can enlarge it and read everything in detail. It`s even signed by his
opponent in the match Earl J. Bruney.

http://www.americanhistory.si.edu/archives/d9744.htm

 

[AtLarge]

... They told me in no uncertain terms that Mosconi did in fact run the 526 in front of many witnesses and only missed the last ball. It may have been on a break shot. I'm not 100% certain about that though. ...

According to R.A. Dyer in "The Hustler & the Champ" it was a cut on the six ball to a corner pocket that jawed out and was the fifth ball of the final rack.

Lou Figueroa

Multiple sources say Bruney (Willie's opponent) ran 3 balls in the first rack and Willie went for 526 from there.

So the 526 would be (11 in the first rack) + (36 racks of 14) + (11 in the last rack) = 526.

[That assumes he didn't pocket all 15 balls in one or more racks and make circus break shots on 15-ball racks to keep going. If he did that, it would mean fewer than 11 in the last rack.]

 

[AtLarge]

In post 171, a quote from Mike Shamos says that, in his autobiography, Willie said he just quit to end his run of 526. That is incorrect: "I finally missed a difficult cut shot, but by that time I was weary; it was almost a relief to have it come to an end."

 

[lfigueroa]

Multiple sources say Bruney (Willie's opponent) ran 3 balls in the first rack and Willie went for 526 from there.

So the 526 would be (11 in the first rack) + (36 racks of 14) + (11 in the last rack) = 526.

[That assumes he didn't pocket all 15 balls in one or more racks and make circus break shots on 15-ball racks to keep going. If he did that, it would mean fewer than 11 in the last rack.]

I dan't know.

But FWIW the "Springfield News" interviewed a couple of guys who were there and printed, "It wasn't until the fifth ball of the 35th rack that a tough angle shot gagged in the corner leading Mosconi to smile at the crowd and casually remark that he'd been getting tired anyway."

Lou Figueroa

 

[WildWing]

These are good sources. At the end of the day, can we at least put an end to the myth that Willie just quit at 526?

All the best,
WW

 

[Cornerman]

These are good sources. At the end of the day, can we at least put an end to the myth that Willie just quit at 526?

All the best,
WW

Someone always brings it up. The myth will never be put to bed.

 

[garczar]

These are good sources. At the end of the day, can we at least put an end to the myth that Willie just quit at 526?

All the best,
WW

I heard the bar next door was doin' free Jello shots and Willie's feet hurt so he just bailed.

 

[WildWing]

I heard the bar next door was doin' free Jello shots and Willie's feet hurt so he just bailed.

Trust me, I've done the same thing. :grin-square:

All the best,
WW

 

[ImaPoolnut]

I’ll start this slew of comments surely to follow:

Yeah - that’s a limb you’re out on for sure.

I almost choked reading this post....

Do you, or anyone else for that matter, really believe that everyone that signed the affidavit for that event was in on some sort of spoof or look-the-other-direction regarding reasonable rules known to them all? A conspiracy for fun and games? All those people - knowing it was Willie Mosconi - his character and everything else people knew of the man for decades leading up to that evening....really?

Gee, for that matter, you can go crazy with all sorts of he said and she said about the 526 run. Perhaps Willie was using a laser guided cue they were also keeping from us about the record run during an exhibition.

So little respect and acceptance of great things by great people from an era of play that most can’t fathom - so easy to sling the cheap and filthy bs.

Come on. Really?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This comment was merely that a comment that I offered based on numerous conversations with someone of that era with some strong beliefs of the event. I believe Jay Helfert explained that Danny was probably in his late teens or early 20's when this happened and he was focusing on becoming a boxer so at 84 years of age I do have my doubts on the validity of his version. However I must say that having been close friends with Danny for quite some time he has told me a few thousand road stories and every once in awhile I check his facts on the event and he "dead balls on accurate". So I guess I don't take everything he says with a grain of salt. These stories for the most part are extremely entertaining and from my research mostly factual. I do know that there was a number of events that occured with Danny and Willie back in the day that Danny formed a pretty poor opinion of Willie's character, never his game, called him a master, but some personal differences over the years have tainted Danny's opinion of Willie, so I wouldn't doubt that some of this information is either fabricated or exaggerated.

 

[ImaPoolnut]

Mosconi 526 ball run???

Jay; this looks like some legit info.

From an article in National Billiard News

by Dick Hatfield

Willie Mosconi, in Springfield, Ohio, March 1954, ran 526 balls in a row for a world record that still stands today. His challenger was Earl "Jake" Bruney, an accomplished hometown pool shark.

The site of the action was East High Billiards, 111 ½ East High in the heart of downtown Springfield, on the second floor above Reco Sporting Goods. "East High" was a first class pool hall run by a first class gentleman named Bob Haas. The only criticizable thing Bob ever did was allow underage guys like me into his establishment. I was 16 - you were supposed to be 18 or older.

The first time I saw Mosconi, I thought he looked like a movie star: impeccably dressed in a tailor-made suit, blue cashmere topcoat, black fedora, and polished black shoes. He was a big hit with everybody, very personable, made small talk with the regulars, and occasionally fed a handful of nickels in the pinball machines. He was a regular guy.

Bruney safe-broke the balls at 8:00pm that March 18th, Mosconi shot second. They safe-shot back and forth a few times, and then Jake found his way clear to pocket the only three balls he'd make that night. After that, Willie took command of that 4X8 Brunswick for the next four and a half hours. At 12:50am, he missed the 527th shot - a six-ball in the corner. It tottered at the pocket, but wouldn't fall.

A number of Springfielders witnessed this record-breaking performance, including A.Y. "Lefty" Thomas, who made a sketch of the missed shot. Lefty will also authenticate this narrative. About fifty of the witnesses signed an affidavit verifying the high run.
Although at least three claim to have bought the legendary table that Willie and Jake shot on that night, it's actually owned by George Rude? (Rood), who subsequently part-owned the East High. Later in the 1950s, George played Willie several times in exhibition matches at East High. On a couple of those occasions I took tickets and sold Mosconi's books.








================================================================================
This is by Mike Shamos:

The following facts can be established through contemporaneous
evidence: On March 19, 1954 at the East High Billiard Club in
Springfield, Ohio, Mosconi played an announced exhibition against Earl
J. Bruney, a local Springfield player. (Usually Mosconi advertised in
advance that he was going to give an exhibition but it was up to the
local room to determine who his opponent would be.) Mosconi beat
Bruney, 200-3, in the exhibition on an 8-foot Brunswick table. The
length of his unfinished run was not recorded, but he was urged to
continue. After approximately two additional hours, he reached 526 and
missed a shot. It is also not recorded what type of shot he missed on,
and recollections of various people are contradictory on this point.

At least 36 people were present at the end of the run, since they
signed a statement attesting to the run on the stationery of the East
High Billiard Club. The Billiard Archive has a copy of this document.
It is signed by, among 35 others, "Earl J. Bruney (opponent)". Howard
Barrett did not sign it. This does not mean he wasn't there, just that
he may have had his reasons for not signing.

While Barrett says in the current Pool & Billiard Magazine that
Mosconi ended his regulation game with a run of only 33, I consider it
unlikely (but not impossible) in view of the fact that Bruney only
scored 3 points. Mosconi always promised the room owner that he would
run 100 in an exhibition. If he did not run 100 on his way to a total
of 200, and his last run was 33, he must have taken at least three
innings and probably more. That means Bruney would have had at least
two chances to shoot and we would expect him to score more than 3
points. It is more likely that Mosconi broke for Bruney, Bruney ran 3
and then Mosconi ran 200. He felt in the zone, and so was persuaded to
continue to try to break his previous record of 365, which he set in
Wilmongton, NC in 1953. (This paragraph is just speculation.)

The New York Times reported the story on March 21, 1954. The BCA
recognized the run as an exhibition high run several days after it
occurred. The requirement for exhibition high runs back then was that
the run must have occurred in an announced exhibition on a table
satisfying BCA specifications and been witnessed. The reason for
requiring announcement in advance is so the public, and especially the
press, are notified and have a chance to attend. If the exhibition is
not announced, but is made known only to close friends of the player,
you can imagine that all sorts of questionable records would be
claimed. There is no category of BCA record for practice runs, since
these do not occur in a competitive situation and are usually not
witnessed. There are several stories of practice runs in the 700s.
Whether or not they occurred, they are not records.

Later in his life, Mosconi, apparently too proud to admit that he
ever missed a shot (admittedly a rare event), started telling people
that he just got tired and put his cue down, and so it is written in
his (auto)biography, "Willie's Game." But it's just not true.

Much has been made of the fact that the run of 526 was made on an
8-foot table. However, I have never seen a convincing argument that
such a run is easier on an 8-foot table than on a 9-footer. While the
shots are shorter on a smaller table, the chance of the balls getting
tied up is greater, particularly right after a break shot. There is no
question that such a run is easier on an 8 or 9-foot table than on a
10-foot table. (Straight pool high run on a 10-foot table: 309.
Amazingly, this record was set by Crane and TIED by Mosconi.)

The story surrounding Mike Eufemia's claimed run of 625 is very
complicated. The upshot is that it is not recognized by the BCA
because it did not meet the standards for an exhibition high run
record.
Mike Shamos
Chairperson, BCA Statistics and Records Committee


This link is from the National Museum of American
History's website. They have a collection of Willie Mosconi artifacts that was
donated by Willie`s wife Flora. Included on this particular page is a link to a
scan of the official court affidavit attesting to Mosconi`s record 526 ball
run. You can enlarge it and read everything in detail. It`s even signed by his
opponent in the match Earl J. Bruney.

http://www.americanhistory.si.edu/archives/d9744.htm

Hi Dick,

This is some great info here. Thanks for digging that up for us.