why did jose hit the 9 this way?

[BilliardsAbout]

And yet you're apparently unable to say what difference it supposedly makes. Shouldn't an "instructor" be able to do that?

I'll ask again: what specific difference do you suppose the angle of the cue at impact makes?

pj
chgo

Pardon me, I wrote "You are saying the path the cue stick takes to impact has no bearing on the shot. Respectfully, I disagree".

Are you asking about the angle of the cue stick at impact per your question or what I was talking about, the path into impact?

I was able to say what the difference is, one can set for a jump shot and instead of butt-to-tip through Point X, roll the cue ball forward by taking a different path to and through Point X.

Have I misunderstood your question? I also already addressed my stick angle factor comment in a prior post.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'll ask again: what specific difference do you suppose the angle of the cue at impact makes?

Are you asking about the angle of the cue stick at impact?

Is English your second (or third) language?

This is why I won't waste any more time trying to teach you anything - I assume others with normal comprehension/communication skills will get it despite the added confusion of your posts. Frankly, I think you're just dodging the questions because you don't understand / can't answer them.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Is English your second (or third) language?

This is why I won't waste any more time trying to teach you anything - I assume others with normal comprehension/communication skills will get it despite the added confusion of your posts. Frankly, I think you're just dodging the questions because you don't understand / can't answer them.

pj
chgo

The angle of the cue at impact makes no difference--as we've prior discussed on this thread--since the angle equals tip position at impact.

I also prior wrote I included "angle" with someone who was upset, trying to find common ground with them.

What are you trying to teach me in this thread? Are you an "instructor" now, like me?

 

[sparkle84]

Is English your second (or third) language?


pj
chgo

You beat me to it. It's been on my mind to ask that for a long, long time.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The angle of the cue at impact makes no difference

So if a swooped tip and a straight-stroked tip hit the same CB spot moving in the same direction, and the angle of the cue doesn't matter, exactly how does swooping produce a different effect?

pj
chgo

 

[sparkle84]

"Really work heavy english--near the miscue limit--without a miscue".

Perhaps read Fran's prior posts on the prevalence of pros swooping years back.

So let me get this straight, you're saying that a swoop stroke allows you to get "-near the miscue limit--without a miscue"
It would be my opinion that regardless which type of stroke you employ, you will get real good english if you get out on the edge as far as possible without miscueing. (There are other factors involved but they can be put aside for purposes of this discussion).
You are either shy of the miscue or you miscue whatever stroke you're using. Are you saying that introducing sideways arm movement or a wrist twist will provide more success in getting good juice and at the same time less miscues.
Cause I don't think you'll find one single pool, carom or snooker instructor on the planet who would agree.

Your second sentence above is, I'm assuming, an answer to another question I asked.

The question was `"If there are that many pros that employ a swoop stroke it should be a very simple for you to put up a couple links to videos of said pros using it."
Quoting someones assertion that many years ago many pros did it is not an answer.
Neither is "You and I have seen countless pros, including top 50 players" or "I'm saying so many pros use a swoop that asking for "demonstrations" is not a need."
Those are your words in case you've forgotten. Or should I say your perceptions. You're indicating there are a multitude of professional players who use this technique.
If that's the case what would be the difficultly of posting a video so us neophytes can see it for ourselves

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This subject is pretty slippery for written/spoken descriptions, so here's a visual that might help explain the way I see it.

pj
chgo

P.S. I use a new way of describing the miscue limit ("30° from center of mass"), it's the same as saying the traditional "1/2 radius from centerball", a little more descriptively for this topic.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

So if a swooped tip and a straight-stroked tip hit the same CB spot moving in the same direction, and the angle of the cue doesn't matter, exactly how does swooping produce a different effect?

pj
chgo

You are misquoting me again. Different approach angles can be set to make no difference, as I wrote, in what section of the tip impacts Point X yet the ball is indeed influenced by cue stick approach angle.

I disagree with your diagram above--I can setup for a jump stroke through Point X then roll the cue ball rather than jumping it high in the air, by bringing the cue stick forward rather than stroking the cue stick along its butt-to-tip angle.

I enjoy debating and discussing with you because you're highly intelligent and have much to offer, but you ought to actually address what I write rather than snip my responses.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

So let me get this straight, you're saying that a swoop stroke allows you to get "-near the miscue limit--without a miscue"
It would be my opinion that regardless which type of stroke you employ, you will get real good english if you get out on the edge as far as possible without miscueing. (There are other factors involved but they can be put aside for purposes of this discussion).
You are either shy of the miscue or you miscue whatever stroke you're using. Are you saying that introducing sideways arm movement or a wrist twist will provide more success in getting good juice and at the same time less miscues.
Cause I don't think you'll find one single pool, carom or snooker instructor on the planet who would agree.

Your second sentence above is, I'm assuming, an answer to another question I asked.

The question was `"If there are that many pros that employ a swoop stroke it should be a very simple for you to put up a couple links to videos of said pros using it."
Quoting someones assertion that many years ago many pros did it is not an answer.
Neither is "You and I have seen countless pros, including top 50 players" or "I'm saying so many pros use a swoop that asking for "demonstrations" is not a need."
Those are your words in case you've forgotten. Or should I say your perceptions. You're indicating there are a multitude of professional players who use this technique.
If that's the case what would be the difficultly of posting a video so us neophytes can see it for ourselves

Actually sir, we agree, that certain techniques can help people avoid miscues when using english. We simply disagree on what those techniques are.

Why do I need to post any videos? You can't think of a single pro who aims base of the cue ball for every shot? We know they swoop for vertical axis shots, so how do they hit english?

I might post a how-to video if it helps you, but the way you are speaking to me on this thread, you don't seem open-minded at all, so I'm not very motivated to make you a video, to be honest.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I disagree with your diagram above

You don't understand it. Color me unsurprised.

I can setup for a jump stroke through Point X then roll the cue ball rather than jumping it high in the air, by bringing the cue stick forward rather than stroking the cue stick along its butt-to-tip angle.

What do you think that has to do with my diagram?

What do you think your "demonstration" demonstrates?

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

You don't understand it. Color me unsurprised.


What do you think that has to do with my diagram?

What do you think your "demonstration" demonstrates?

pj
chgo

I misread your illustration this morning. I apologize. I agree with its points.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I misread your illustration this morning. I apologize. I agree with its points.

OK, thanks.

I still wonder what you think this demonstrates:

I can setup for a jump stroke through Point X then roll the cue ball rather than jumping it high in the air, by bringing the cue stick forward rather than stroking the cue stick along its butt-to-tip angle.

Of course the CB action is different because the direction of the tip's movement is different. It has nothing to do with the angle of the cue itself.

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

OK, thanks.

I still wonder what you think this demonstrates:


Of course the CB action is different because the direction of the tip's movement is different. It has nothing to do with the angle of the cue itself.

pj
chgo

Thank you for understanding.

The tip's direction of movement is different with a swoop than with other english strokes.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The tip's direction of movement is different with a swoop than with other english strokes.

We've been through this. You can't hit the CB with the tip moving at a "swooped" angle that can't be duplicated with a straight stroke.

Therefore, there's no advantage to swooping - and at least one major disadvantage (less consistent/accurate).

pj
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

We've been through this. You can't hit the CB with the tip moving at a "swooped" angle that can't be duplicated with a straight stroke.

Therefore, there's no advantage to swooping - and at least one major disadvantage (less consistent/accurate).

pj
chgo

I remember you saying that--however, a swooped stroke describes a curve, and you've said you prefer offset diagonal strokes, which are linear, butt-to-tip. The swoop stroke starts straight toward center ball, than arcs in a j-shape. You continually repeat the word "angle" but you've agreed above that the cue stick's path is also important.

Also, the second point of less consistency/accuracy has been thoroughly debunked by me in countless lessons... and the pros use it also... not everything a pro does or understands themselves to do is logical, but swooping works for them. Hard to imagine a pro wanting to use a "less consistent method" while they run racks on their opponents.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The swoop stroke starts straight toward center ball, than arcs in a j-shape. You continually repeat the word "angle" but you've agreed above that the cue stick's path is also important.

I have not agreed to that. I've said several times that "the tip's direction of movement at contact" is the only important thing.

Your inability to follow a conversation about your chosen field of "expertise" is not a good sign for an "instructor".

Also, the second point of less consistency/accuracy has been thoroughly debunked by me in countless lessons...

Bull. "Debunk" it here, not for your hapless students who don't know better.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have not agreed to that. I've said several times that "the tip's direction of movement at contact" is the only important thing.

Your inability to follow a conversation about your chosen field of "expertise" is not a good sign for an "instructor".


Bull. "Debunk" it here, not for your hapless students who don't know better.

pj
chgo

Matt, my apologies for questioning your instructor qualifications over this minor point. Yeah, we disagree on the swoop thing, but it's not enough of an issue to call the caliber of your instruction into question. I've never heard a complaint about that, and I'm sorry for implying it.

pj <- agree to disagree
chgo

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I have not agreed to that. I've said several times that "the tip's direction of movement at contact" is the only important thing.

Your inability to follow a conversation about your chosen field of "expertise" is not a good sign for an "instructor".


Bull. "Debunk" it here, not for your hapless students who don't know better.

pj
chgo

I understand, but the path to impact--if this path continued on--would be the tip's direction of movement at contact.

As for debunking the ease of use/difficulty of execution question, if the offset stroke is diagonal across the shot line, and the swoop is more parallel to the shot line, which stroke will be better at moving the cue ball with accuracy?

Even if I agreed that swooping causes, say, 100% more miscues than offset (which I don't!) that has to be offset (pun intended) with pocketing more balls, making more shape. Miscuing twice instead of once out of 100 shots is more than balanced by getting shape and pocketing the object ball far more often.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Matt, my apologies for questioning your instructor qualifications over this minor point. Yeah, we disagree on the swoop thing, but it's not enough of an issue to call the caliber of your instruction into question. I've never heard a complaint about that, and I'm sorry for implying it.

pj <- agree to disagree
chgo

That's quite alright. I'm personally struggling with my usual issue--I have the desire to go on and on until there's a Hegelian synthesis of new concepts--I learn plenty even as I argue my side (and I'm open to changing my point of view, too) with the fact that the longer the thread wears on, the more people can feel frustrated.

I'm glad there are others at AZ who want to help people learn the right way. I'd be so much better at pool now if I had better instructors to begin.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I understand, but the path to impact--if this path continued on--would be the tip's direction of movement at contact.

At the moment of impact only the tip's single direction of motion matters - the path it took to get there (straight in that direction or curving into that direction) is irrelevant. There's no difference in the tip's effect on the CB. In fact, there can't be a difference or one of them will miss the shot.

...if the offset stroke is diagonal across the shot line, and the swoop is more parallel to the shot line, which stroke will be better at moving the cue ball with accuracy?

The one that moves in a straight line, of course. It boggles the mind that you don't know this.

Miscuing twice instead of once out of 100 shots is more than balanced by getting shape and pocketing the object ball far more often.

Except for the minor fact that it doesn't do that.

pj
chgo