Yes, I think. Is there a difference between "tip steer" and "swoop stroke"?Out of curiosity, tip steer or swoop stroke at 1:25? https://youtu.be/l80kS4RxKDo
pj
chgo
Yes, I think. Is there a difference between "tip steer" and "swoop stroke"?Out of curiosity, tip steer or swoop stroke at 1:25? https://youtu.be/l80kS4RxKDo
Yes, I think. Is there a difference between "tip steer" and "swoop stroke"?
pj
chgo
Out of curiosity, tip steer or swoop stroke at 1:25? https://youtu.be/l80kS4RxKDo
It's neither. You don't come off line until well after the ball is gone.
It is an affectation, a flinch, some body english, a move to get your opponent to bet higher, an unconscious relictual idiosyncrasy from when you did swoop, a visible expression of intent, or something like that. It may be catching but it's not serious.:smile:
In legal terms it’s attempted steer/swoop with intent to spin.It's neither. You don't come off line until well after the ball is gone.
I have no idea, honestly. I've always done this on some shots and considered it a stroke flaw. This thread was an interesting read. I'm going to work on eliminating it out of my stroke.
Bob's the expert but I consider that a flaw as well. You're a good player and I didn't see that as best I could tell on any other shot. Maybe it was because your bridge hand was half on the rail? You can fix that so why not?
Fran essentially said that Dr. Dave is not experienced enough with the technique to render a verdict on it in his video. The video tests the idea that you can get greater maximum spin with a swoop than you can without one. I assume that Fran supports the idea that you can get greater max english with a swoop. I have no opinion either way other than to say if it is possible why hasn't anybody demonstrated it? I'd like to add such a technique to my game if it actually achieves something.
From a layman's perspective, it seems like teaching amateurs how to swoop their stroke is a bad idea. It's hard enough to stroke straight, much less introduce a variable like this to the situation. Maybe there are benefits to high level players, but for amateurs?
Hi Fran. I've been following the discussion about a swoop stroke off and on for awhile now. Is it your contention that more spin can be imparted on the cue ball with the swoop? Whether it can or cannot, it seems to me that it doesn't matter until you get to extreme amounts of english. If you can get more spin with the swoop than you can get otherwise shouldn't this be easy enough to demonstrate on video? Has anybody ever done that? I know Dr. Dave tried to show that you can't, but has anybody experienced with the technique actually showed otherwise?
Just curious.
Hi Dan. If Dave's video was about a theory of getting extra spin or not, then he clearly doesn't understand the stroke. It's not about getting extra spin. It's about less cue ball squirt, because initial contact is at center ball. I believe that the tip stays on the ball longer as the player changes the pool cue's direction ----and here's the key --- RIGHT AT THE MOMENT OF CONTACT --- with a twisting back hand. That's why I asked if the stroke is even legal. Back when we were all doing it, no one really questioned it. All they knew was that on many shots there was no need to adjust their aim for cb squirt. On some shots, yes, of course, there were some minor adjustments for squirt.
Remember: LD Shafts hadn't been invented yet and cue balls were squirting like crazy with parallel English. A well-known player used to laugh at me and said my stroke for applying English back then looked like a windshield wiper. That was a pretty accurate description, LOL, but by no means was I alone.
Oh, and btw, you can get plenty of spin with that stroke if you can learn how to trust it. It takes a long time and a lot of practice to build up that kind of trust, which is another reason why I'm certain Dave doesn't understand the stroke. Notice that he wasn't pocketing balls in his video. That's what this is all about --- pocketing that tough shot and sending the cb multi rails for position --- not hitting the cb into a rail like he was doing.
I see some problems with that - here's the first one:...It's not about getting extra spin. It's about less cue ball squirt, because initial contact is at center ball.
I see some problems with that - here's the first one:
If you set up for a centerball hit (with your bridge on the centerball line), then in order to hit center ball at an angle you must first swoop the tip in the opposite direction of the spin you want and then swoop it back in the direction of spin you want - an s-curve swoop stroke. Is that what you're describing?
pj
chgo
View attachment 525471
Nonsense.Yet even a very small wrist twist or other sideways movement would cause the edge of the tip to strike center ball without any "s-shape stroke". Set up a center ball shot, now move the stroke hand slightly left, the cue tip goes right, placing the cue tip's left edge where center cue tip was before.
Continuing that move--even for the minute fractions of a second through impact--spins the ball like a globe which gets slapped obliquely instead of struck straight ahead--with efficiency.
Nonsense.
If it spins the ball at all, it spins it exactly like a straight stroke would - except with much less stroke accuracy/reliability.
It's easy to prove, if you really care to know...
pj
chgo
Yes, it was easily proven in numerous lessons, by me. Your use of "it" above is telling--no matter how many times I ask people to try it at the tables (learn for themselves when they're being argumentative) they assess from the comfort of an armchair.
I try to be Socratic, so you can learn, thus, some questions:
1) How many pros advocate avoiding dead center ball, and strike above or below dead center, when playing the vertical axis--where you would strike dead center?
2) How many pros say "we pros tend to spin most shots in"? How is this done? Dead center vertical axis strokes with center cue tip, do you think?
3) Do all the pro strokes you've seen that veer after impact have the "problems" that were diagnosed in the video on this thread--or could something else be happening?
PS. Do you stand corrected on the s-swoop stroke? Or will it be your stock-in-trade to call me nonsensical every time I point out your errors?
I see some problems with that - here's the first one:
If you set up for a centerball hit (with your bridge on the centerball line), then in order to hit center ball at an angle you must first swoop the tip in the opposite direction of the spin you want and then swoop it back in the direction of spin you want - an s-curve swoop stroke. Is that what you're describing?
pj
chgo
View attachment 525471
It's easy to prove, if you really care to know...
Unwillingness to test what you teach isn't the mark of a good instructor. My advice to whoever got those lessons is get another opinion.Yes, it was easily proven in numerous lessons, by me.
I understand. It seems there is more than one conversation going on regarding the swoop stroke. The one I was referring to was the contention by some players that by swooping you can achieve a greater amount of english than maximum tip offset can do. I think that is what Dave was trying to demonstrate. I agree that if the motion required to make it work is difficult to learn then Dave's video might not be considered conclusive. That's why I was hoping that someone who knows the swoop stroke well could actually demonstrate the high spin effect and put the debate to rest.
It's easy to see how either or both could be believed, especially if you're good enough to swoop without losing too much accuracy.It was never about achieving more spin. It was about achieving the same amount of spin as the parallel method but without the same amount of cb squirt.
One may stroke "butt-to-tip diagonal" or "straight back-and-forth parallel to shot line", and this might be the fourth (?) time I've asked you which you do, since we instructors like to find out what the student is actually doing or claiming to do. mile:
Why is there no confusion about this for any instructor, by the way? Do you have a manual you recommend that goes beyond "aim here for english" to show that a diagonal stroke is to be employed? Perhaps that would explain why so many pros and instructors swoop? :smile: