why did jose hit the 9 this way?

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
it seems intuitive to use outside english on this shot, but jose is using a bit of inside instead- why?

what's funny, is that I like to shoot balls in like this too, but again, I don't really understand how come..
 

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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... jose is using a bit of inside instead ...
I think it is real hard to tell how much if any right side spin the player is using. How much do you think it is? Does this player routinely line up off-center as an idiosyncrasy?
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You watched the video so you saw where the cue ball went. It's pretty obvious he hit the CB with low left, same as 99.9% of all good players would hit it.
Just because someone addresses the CB in a certain spot doesn't necessarily mean they hit it there. The direction the CB takes will always tell the true story of where it was contacted.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... you saw where the cue ball went. ...
Yes, this is usually the best way to tell where a player has contacted the cue ball. There is a sizeable -- and in my opinion mistaken -- minority that does not address the ball where they intend to hit it.
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You watched the video so you saw where the cue ball went. It's pretty obvious he hit the CB with low left, same as 99.9% of all good players would hit it.
Just because someone addresses the CB in a certain spot doesn't necessarily mean they hit it there. The direction the CB takes will always tell the true story of where it was contacted.

thanks- I don't think he hit low on it, but you right..the cue ball don't lie.
I was mesmerized by his cue..but he didn't put the tip right until the very last moment.
is that what's called backhand english?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...he didn't put the tip right until the very last moment.
is that what's called backhand english?
Could be a form of it.

Backhand english is moving your backhand sideways to apply english (pivoting on your bridge). It can be done by "swooping" the tip sideways during the shot stroke (not recommended) or by pivoting first to the amount of spin wanted and stroking straight at the pivoted angle (much better).

It works better with some cues than others, depending on how well your bridge length is matched with the cue's "squirt pivot length".

pj
chgo
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could be a form of it.

Backhand english is moving your backhand sideways to apply english (pivoting on your bridge). It can be done by "swooping" the tip sideways during the shot stroke (not recommended) or by pivoting first to the amount of spin wanted and stroking straight at the pivoted angle (much better).

It works better with some cues than others, depending on how well your bridge length is matched with the cue's "squirt pivot length".

pj
chgo

thanks pat. pretty interesting way to hit a cue ball, and then pool balls-
 

cue4me

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
After watching the video of the shot and also the highlights of the game immediately following, it doesn't look to me that he hits the ball with right english at all. The path of the cue ball and the spin on it seem to indicate there is either no english on it or possibly a small amount of left. Right english would have killed the action of the cue ball after it hit the end rail and that didn't happen. It seems the camera shooting from the right side may have contributed to that perception.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Could be a form of it.

Backhand english is moving your backhand sideways to apply english (pivoting on your bridge). It can be done by "swooping" the tip sideways during the shot stroke (not recommended) or by pivoting first to the amount of spin wanted and stroking straight at the pivoted angle (much better).

It works better with some cues than others, depending on how well your bridge length is matched with the cue's "squirt pivot length".

pj
chgo

I was of the swooping generation --- not that I'm saying it's better --- it's the way we learned in the 80's. The idea was that starting at or near the center and finishing farther out on the cb would result in less cb squirt. I don't know if that's true or not but one thing I always wondered --- Is swooping even legal? I think the tip stays on the cb longer than just a regular hit.

Any opinions on that?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Backhand english is moving your backhand sideways to apply english (pivoting on your bridge). It can be done by "swooping" the tip sideways during the shot stroke (not recommended) or by pivoting first to the amount of spin wanted and stroking straight at the pivoted angle (much better).

It works better with some cues than others, depending on how well your bridge length is matched with the cue's "squirt pivot length".

I was of the swooping generation --- not that I'm saying it's better --- it's the way we learned in the 80's. The idea was that starting at or near the center and finishing farther out on the cb would result in less cb squirt. I don't know if that's true or not but one thing I always wondered --- Is swooping even legal? I think the tip stays on the cb longer than just a regular hit.

Any opinions on that?
My first opinion is that however you did it, you did it very well. :)

I think all strokes, straight or curved, boil down to the instant (1/1000 of a second or so) of tip/ball contact, and if the tip is traveling in the same direction and speed at that moment the results will be the same (contact time, spin, squirt, whatever).

I've never heard the legality of a curved stroke questioned.

pj
chgo
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I can provide diagrams again, but I'm confident there is a reason why many pros swoop/backhand on some shots.

There is a difference between "parallel english" taken through point X on the cb and pivot english taken through the same point X, same speed and same force of stroke can certainly change the cue ball action, based on angle of attack.

Striking a globe on a stand through New York can topple the globe stand to the ground, striking across New York on the same globe with the same force of hit as before, spins the globe on its axis instead. Same hit/force/stroke, different angle of incidence.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I can provide diagrams again, but I'm confident there is a reason why many pros swoop/backhand on some shots.

There is a difference between "parallel english" taken through point X on the cb and pivot english taken through the same point X, same speed and same force of stroke can certainly change the cue ball action, based on angle of attack.

Striking a globe on a stand through New York can topple the globe stand to the ground, striking across New York on the same globe with the same force of hit as before, spins the globe on its axis instead. Same hit/force/stroke, different angle of incidence.

i would like to see the diagrams
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
My first opinion is that however you did it, you did it very well. :)

I think all strokes, straight or curved, boil down to the instant (1/1000 of a second or so) of tip/ball contact, and if the tip is traveling in the same direction and speed at that moment the results will be the same (contact time, spin, squirt, whatever).

I've never heard the legality of a curved stroke questioned.

pj
chgo

Ha! Thanks Patrick.

This wouldn't be the first time I questioned something that other's may not have questioned yet. Sometimes I'm on to something and other times it turns out to be nonsense. This time I don't think it's nonsense. I think a swipe or swoop does leave the tip on the ball longer because the cue stick isn't traveling straight but rather more around the circumference of the cb in reference to the line of the shot even though the tip is staying in one spot on the cue ball. It's rotating with the ball while it's still on it.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think a swipe or swoop does leave the tip on the ball longer because the cue stick isn't traveling straight but rather more around the circumference of the cb in reference to the line of the shot even though the tip is staying in one spot on the cue ball. It's rotating with the ball while it's still on it.
I think most people probably see it the way you do - it makes intuitive sense.

But I can't execute a swooping stroke as accurately as a straight one, so I hope I'm right that either kind can produce the same CB effect.

pj
chgo
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
"Through" vs. "across" are different directions of motion at contact.

Swooping vs. straight backhand English are not different directions of motion at contact.

pj
chgo

I agree, of course. Only different directions of motion can provide different cue ball actions, however, the swoop stroke yields a different direction of motion than the pivot stroke or "parallel" false english stroke (see my illustration below).

You've said you've had trouble executing a swoop, don't think of it as a diagonal stroke through Point X, rather, think of it as more of setting the whole cue to broom forward, while it has been turned a tiny increment diagonally through the bridge hand. Put another way, I think/feel like the backhand english stroke is a straight stroke.

Swooping efficiently combines the better parts of parallel and pivot technique.

Pool - English Diagram.jpg
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think that swooping does not accomplish anything that a straight stroke can't accomplish. It cannot achieve any special direction and spin. In my view it is a pointless complication and it is a mistake to teach it to students. I think the the only use is to make the student feel the instructor has "special secrets" that are worth paying extra for.
 
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BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I think that swooping does not accomplish anything that a straight stroke can accomplish. It cannot achieve any special direction and spin. In my view it is a pointless complication and it is a mistake to teach it to students. I think the the only use is to make the student feel the instructor has "special secrets" that are worth paying extra for.

Then it's a good thing I just illustrated the technique and explained how to do it, so no one can say it's a secret technique. You can refer such hucksters to my diagram on this thread above.

Not every technique suits everyone's palate. But a lot of pros use a swoop, for some, not all, english strokes, and it can be quite effective.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I agree, of course. Only different directions of motion can provide different cue ball actions
Then the next question is - can the tip's speed and direction with a swoop stroke be duplicated using a straight stroke?

The answer is obviously yes - so why would you ever swoop?

pj
chgo
 
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