APA screwed our very own sleinen out of a national championship

us820 said:
It’s the biggest because they spot terrible players so much.
I just eatched a finals match where the “winner” needed to make 4 balls...4 balls to be a “world champion”.
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Do you understand how this works and why only 4 were needed???

Do some research.
 
It should be 3 wins of the 5 matches wins IMHO.

Also in 8 ball it kills me with the shortness of the race how 2s can easily get 3-0s in a “race” to 2.Lets the weakest players control too many points.
 
mikepage said:
League results are included, and the mechanism to get them in is to manage your league with fargorate.com/LMS
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Interesting. I was wondering you you rated players who never play in a tournament.

How far back do you go in leagues or tournaments to capture results?
 
To the DQ'd team, congrats on the deep run, you should be proud not angry. Looking at your text messages, you built the team to have fun, just play, and let the chips fall where they may, well this is the result. To hell with the trophy and a few bucks, the memories should be worth much more.

You gave it your all, just had too many players raised in the process. APA is not accusing you of cheating just unfortunately breaking a rule and the penalty is see you again in 2yrs, no big deal.

Also, one simple change to stop this from occuring is simply never lowering a handicap. If you played strong enough to reach a level, there you are, no reason to go down, practice harder or find something else to do. Simple really. It's ridiculous to see players with hundreds of matches remain a sl1/2 and be disqualified. Again, congrats!!
 
us820 said:
It’s the biggest because they spot terrible players so much.
I just eatched a finals match where the “winner” needed to make 4 balls...4 balls to be a “world champion”.
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That means the prior matches were lopsided, it's cumulative. It's not a game or match race, but it's a fine system that makes players try really hard in the early matches, all else (i.e., sandbagging considerations) equal.
 
evergruven said:
hey jeff,
first I gotta say I was actually just thinking recently, "where are all the rake posts at?"
have you been mia or is it just my imagination?

second- personally, I'm not much for handicapping..I'd rather get my brains bashed in and learn something from it
(I know, you're thinking, how can you learn with bashed brains? well, you get used to it:D).
I can see value in handicapping, especially for betting types-
it's just a spice on the cue rack that doesn't jive with my tastebuds.

this said, I've done a few bca leagues and they didn't handicap.
sometimes I got smoked, sometimes I did the smokin', but I had a good time overall, and met some nice folks in the process.
one of the (many) things I like about pool is that you gotta be a one-person team out there, no room for a crowd..
but if I did a league again, I would be happy to do bca.
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Hey E.G.,

For a while I was tending to my wife (sick) and my own injuries (back/neck).

She is better now and I'm back to playing.

I've still got the back and neck issues. But, like other people, with rods and screws from my a55 to half way up my back, it puts a cap on my table time and my skill level I can reach.

I did get to go to Birmingham and match up with David Rowell a couple weeks ago. We played some $50 sets of 9 ball, magic rack on 9' pro-am at Bumpers. We played a good 5 hours and broke dead even. I played ok, not at my best. Then again, I don't think David was at his best either. The biggest pack in our sets was a couple 3 packs. Other than that, it was one safety battle after another. It was fun.

Other than that match, I've not left my house to play.

I have for now (two days ago) quit 14.1 and took AR back up. I really like 14.1 and it will always be my fav but, sometimes we need something new to keep it fresh and I always fall back on AR when I get tired of 14.

Ive not posted much. Heck, I've not even lurked much in a while now.

As for the apa and handicapping. Lol <<<<<< sums it up.

I'm not crazy about the BCA either but, it's better than the APA IMO.

Regardless what league in my surrounding areas, all of them are IMO a waste of good practice time.

However, I've heard tell of an AR league in Huntsville Alabama that I'm gonna check into pretty soon. I've got to see how my health holds up over next couple months first.

Have a good one sir,

Jeff
 
us820 said:
It should be 3 wins of the 5 matches wins IMHO.

Also in 8 ball it kills me with the shortness of the race how 2s can easily get 3-0s in a “race” to 2.Lets the weakest players control too many points.
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Spoken like a true higher SL player and one who thinks nobody ever cheats. Where's the incentive to shoot an 18-2 match if 13-7 or 12-8 will do? Also, the 3-0 for winning just two games of 8-Ball is an incentive to win the first two games, not the first and fourth. It makes every game count and is an excellent anti-sandbagging tool.
 
APA Operator said:
Spoken like a true higher SL player and one who thinks nobody ever cheats. Where's the incentive to shoot an 18-2 match if 13-7 or 12-8 will do? Also, the 3-0 for winning just two games of 8-Ball is an incentive to win the first two games, not the first and fourth. It makes every game count and is an excellent anti-sandbagging tool.
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Well to each their own.I am a 7 and I play every shot all in.
 
alstl said:
Interesting. I was wondering you you rated players who never play in a tournament.

How far back do you go in leagues or tournaments to capture results?
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We have not generally had a mechanism to get older league or tournament data in. But where we do it is fine data however old it is (older data has progressively less and less influence).

We essentially built LMS as a mechanism to get league data in.
 
KissedOut said:
When the goal is attracting players it is. You don't like it. Lots more do.
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Their goal is not to attract players. Their goal is to attract money. It's a business, simple as that.

APA is for "room health". It's a double edged sword. Stronger players don't like it, unlike weaker player and room owners. The latter love it for obvious reasons.

If it were not for leagues, food and beverage sales.....rooms owners wouldn't offer all day pool for ~$10.
 
jrctherake said:
Their goal is not to attract players. Their goal is to attract money. It's a business, simple as that.



APA is for "room health". It's a double edged sword. Stronger players don't like it, unlike weaker player and room owners. The latter love it for obvious reasons.



If it were not for leagues, food and beverage sales.....rooms owners wouldn't offer all day pool for ~$10.
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Room health, I thought APA was in bars.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 
+1

Cory in DC said:
I like the APA, but it's not flawless. Over about 25 years, it's clear to me that the handicaps in a division can wander off in the high direction and once they get there, they stay there.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. In a division with no real 7s, the best 6 will become a 7 eventually. That player will have a very high win percentage as a 6, and the system will lift them up to a 7 once they have a few games out of their last 30 that are at 7 speed (even if they have other games at 5 speed). At that point, there's a weak 7 in the division, but the 7 won't drop unless he goes below 50%, which is a terrible win % for a 7. This will lift other players up: 4s will beat that 7 in a 5-2 race (much bigger than the correct 5-3 spot . . . 250% vs. 67%) with fairly low innings. That pulls the 4 up to a 5, but it's really because the 7 is weak. Now the over-handicapped 5 causes 2s and 3s to win a bit more often and they go up.

I could go on, but the point is that if there aren't good 7s in a division then handicaps tend to drift up. Conversely, even just a few good 7s, even better a super 7, will be enough to keep the 5s and 6s where they belong, which keeps the 3s and 4s where they belong, and so on. Therefore, a team that comes out of a division with stronger players will tend to have lower handicaps.

I can't know, but it is entirely possible that the team in question never sandbagged yet was legitimately under-handicapped.

The APA relies on innings, which has been reasonably good for them over the years. But it really doesn't fully equalize across disparate divisions. That's one of the strengths of FargoRate: a fairly small number of connections (even second order connections) among two disparate pools of players is enough to make the ratings in the two pools comparable. To my knowledge, the APA doesn't have anything like that. But they should.
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lot of good points Cory makes
 
DecentShot said:
The fact that they can't get their S together enough to have 8 ball go to a SL 9 is stupid. The APA needs to fargo rate their league.
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If the APA adopts Fargorate as their handicap system, I might just buy me a SCBA and join after I retire. Working from 5am to 5 pm doesn't jive with league pool.

If they had SL6 players that can run 100 balls in 14.1 then I am very suspicious. Something doesn't compute here.
 
Cory in DC said:
I like the APA, but it's not flawless. Over about 25 years, it's clear to me that the handicaps in a division can wander off in the high direction and once they get there, they stay there.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. In a division with no real 7s, the best 6 will become a 7 eventually. That player will have a very high win percentage as a 6, and the system will lift them up to a 7 once they have a few games out of their last 30 that are at 7 speed (even if they have other games at 5 speed). At that point, there's a weak 7 in the division, but the 7 won't drop unless he goes below 50%, which is a terrible win % for a 7. This will lift other players up: 4s will beat that 7 in a 5-2 race (much bigger than the correct 5-3 spot . . . 250% vs. 67%) with fairly low innings. That pulls the 4 up to a 5, but it's really because the 7 is weak. Now the over-handicapped 5 causes 2s and 3s to win a bit more often and they go up.

I could go on, but the point is that if there aren't good 7s in a division then handicaps tend to drift up. Conversely, even just a few good 7s, even better a super 7, will be enough to keep the 5s and 6s where they belong, which keeps the 3s and 4s where they belong, and so on. Therefore, a team that comes out of a division with stronger players will tend to have lower handicaps.

I can't know, but it is entirely possible that the team in question never sandbagged yet was legitimately under-handicapped.

The APA relies on innings, which has been reasonably good for them over the years. But it really doesn't fully equalize across disparate divisions. That's one of the strengths of FargoRate: a fairly small number of connections (even second order connections) among two disparate pools of players is enough to make the ratings in the two pools comparable. To my knowledge, the APA doesn't have anything like that. But they should.
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Great post. My league is relatively small...8 teams...and we have played without an sl7 for the past 4 sessions. This session the strongest 6 got moved to a 7. He is a 580 or so FR (according to him). Will be interesting to see the ripple effect.
 
jrctherake said:
Hey E.G.,

For a while I was tending to my wife (sick) and my own injuries (back/neck).

She is better now and I'm back to playing.

I've still got the back and neck issues. But, like other people, with rods and screws from my a55 to half way up my back, it puts a cap on my table time and my skill level I can reach.

I did get to go to Birmingham and match up with David Rowell a couple weeks ago. We played some $50 sets of 9 ball, magic rack on 9' pro-am at Bumpers. We played a good 5 hours and broke dead even. I played ok, not at my best. Then again, I don't think David was at his best either. The biggest pack in our sets was a couple 3 packs. Other than that, it was one safety battle after another. It was fun.

Other than that match, I've not left my house to play.

I have for now (two days ago) quit 14.1 and took AR back up. I really like 14.1 and it will always be my fav but, sometimes we need something new to keep it fresh and I always fall back on AR when I get tired of 14.

Ive not posted much. Heck, I've not even lurked much in a while now.

As for the apa and handicapping. Lol <<<<<< sums it up.

I'm not crazy about the BCA either but, it's better than the APA IMO.

Regardless what league in my surrounding areas, all of them are IMO a waste of good practice time.

However, I've heard tell of an AR league in Huntsville Alabama that I'm gonna check into pretty soon. I've got to see how my health holds up over next couple months first.

Have a good one sir,

Jeff
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right on jeff..glad to see you back in the mix..not sure how much you missed:D
had to look up american rotation tho..only ever heard of it, but will check it out
a league sounds interesting..let us know how it goes if you get into it

good rolls to you and yours,
sean
 
What's funny is the APA poses as a highly technical organization which is right on top of everything and then this happens. Feature table, national championship match, ball rolls off by half a diamond.


https://www.facebook.com/butch.thrasher.5/videos/10217356954773550/


Napoleon Bonaparte said never attribute to conspiracy that which can be explained by incompetence. It does seem high suspicious they would wait until this team got to the end of a tournament to disqualify them but I'm leaning toward pure incompetence.
 
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