I think it's better to wait for Imac007 to explain what he meant. In your diagram you are moving the cue stick parallel a dime and a half.
And when you pivot back half (except it's not half in your diagram), do you pivot about your bridge hand?
Problem With Our Understanding Of Side
- Thread starter Imac007
- Start date
And when you pivot back half (except it's not half in your diagram), do you pivot about your bridge hand?
Hi Bob, I'm just giving the "jist" of what I think he's saying. The diagram is not meant to be exact in proportions....
As for pivoting, if I do, next time you're in the Chicago area we can hit some around and you can tell me what I'm doing..LOL
I agree. Lets wait for the OP to explain....
Geometric adjustments
All of this is true, when it relates to divergent english. People already use perceived geometric ratios, like 1/2 ball and 1/4 ball, in their thinking. Meanwhile, when the effect of throw and deflection are all but eliminated, the primary adjustment that needs to be made concerns the new cue angle created by moving the cue into position, to apply the side. The adjustment that needs to be made differs based on whether the side converges from the inside side of the shot or whether the convergence comes from the outside side.
Outside converging side moves the cue line into a fat hit relative to the ghost ball line. Inside converging side moves the cue line into an overcut position relative to ghost ball. As a result, the aim line needs to be adjusted for each. In order to simplify and keep the adjustment simple, a geometric fact was used.
Since the cue line and the ghost ball line cross, the choice of where to cross, allows for a consistent ratio of 1:1 to be used. If the cue line originates from a point beside the center of mass and meets the reference aim line at its midpoint the amount of offset at the impact area is equal to the torque line created at the cue ball center. An elongated X crossing in the middle has equal distances between the ends of the lines. That is a 1:1 ratio. It’s a measurable amount of adjustment regardless of length of shot.
If a torque line the width of 2 dimes is used and crosses the ghost ball line at its midpoint and the converging side is inside side, the ball will be overcut into the far side of the pocket. To compensate for the overcut, the original aim line is adjusted to the undercut side of the pocket. Conversely if the converging side is outside side, the initial compensating aim is to the overcut side of the pocket.
The next post will focus on the reasons that convergent side might be chosen over center ball or divergent side.
All of this is true, when it relates to divergent english. People already use perceived geometric ratios, like 1/2 ball and 1/4 ball, in their thinking. Meanwhile, when the effect of throw and deflection are all but eliminated, the primary adjustment that needs to be made concerns the new cue angle created by moving the cue into position, to apply the side. The adjustment that needs to be made differs based on whether the side converges from the inside side of the shot or whether the convergence comes from the outside side.
Outside converging side moves the cue line into a fat hit relative to the ghost ball line. Inside converging side moves the cue line into an overcut position relative to ghost ball. As a result, the aim line needs to be adjusted for each. In order to simplify and keep the adjustment simple, a geometric fact was used.
Since the cue line and the ghost ball line cross, the choice of where to cross, allows for a consistent ratio of 1:1 to be used. If the cue line originates from a point beside the center of mass and meets the reference aim line at its midpoint the amount of offset at the impact area is equal to the torque line created at the cue ball center. An elongated X crossing in the middle has equal distances between the ends of the lines. That is a 1:1 ratio. It’s a measurable amount of adjustment regardless of length of shot.
If a torque line the width of 2 dimes is used and crosses the ghost ball line at its midpoint and the converging side is inside side, the ball will be overcut into the far side of the pocket. To compensate for the overcut, the original aim line is adjusted to the undercut side of the pocket. Conversely if the converging side is outside side, the initial compensating aim is to the overcut side of the pocket.
The next post will focus on the reasons that convergent side might be chosen over center ball or divergent side.
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If you are going to think in terms of the ghost ball line and pivots the following comes to mind. Divergent side and parallel side both occur in relationship to the ghost ball line. BHE and FHE pivot from that line. The ghost ball line does not end at the cue ball. It continues to the object ball. If you think about a pivot, the geometric solution I presented would be simply described as follows. Find the ghost ball line to the undercut side of the pocket. Now place your tip on the midpoint of that line between the two balls and pivot the butt of the cue so that the shaft line crosses to the inside side of the shot, the width of two dimes from the center of mass of the cue ball. Where that shaft line exits on the cue ball face is the cueing point on the surface. BTW the width of a dime is about 1.35mm. So 2 dimes width at 2.7 mm are less than a 1/4 tip using a 12mm tip. This qualifies as a small amount of side in Dr. Dave land. If outside side is preferred. Then start with an overcut ghost ball line. Now pivot from the midpoint to the double dime spot on the other side of the ball’s center. That is the cue line for the shot.
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Sorry guys hope subsequent explanations have made things clearer.
BTW. I want to thank those who have been reading this and commenting, for your patience. Without the ability to demonstrate with a table and balls, descriptions can be unclear. I’ve tried to go back and clean up some of my posts. This area of exploration and findings have been put together over the last 2 years or so. Bear with me the benefits and use potentials are many and varied. And commenters who claim there is nothing really new are also right. The application of the knowledge is what is novel. On the shoulders of giants...
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Let's start with this. Please explain what you mean by these terms. If you can provide a diagram, that should help. I have no idea what you mean by converge and diverge in this context.
The simple definition I have is that diverging in this context means pointing away from and converging means pointing towards. Starting at the ghost ball line BHE and FHE point the cue away from the reference target line. I call the english that points away divergent. When the cue line points back towards the target line, I call it convergent.
Thanks for the help. Defining terms helps people understand.
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wondering
Bob,
What he is describing is one thing, what he means may be completely another. He seems to be describing setting the bridge up in a completely different location than normal.
I have been seriously considering the likelihood that lmac = pj = lmac but I haven't made any effort to find out.
Hu
Bob,
What he is describing is one thing, what he means may be completely another. He seems to be describing setting the bridge up in a completely different location than normal.
I have been seriously considering the likelihood that lmac = pj = lmac but I haven't made any effort to find out.
Hu
Glad I got out the extra large bag of popcorn for that OP.
Carry on.
Carry on.
Okay, I think I finally have an inkling as to what you're describing.
Assuming the effects of throw and swerve are ignored, and your only goal is to simply compensate for squirt (deflection) such that the OB hits the precise ghost ball location, then every type of side would be "divergent", according to your definition. Any type of "convergent" side, assuming the reference point is the ghost ball line, will never get the ball to the ghost ball location.
Do you agree, or am I misunderstanding something?
Yup, but it is still all about aiming. I've read every post and I already know what is being discussed here. Since you guys don't seem to mind this being in the wrong forum and it is mostly civil I don't really care.
Sent from my LG-H918 using Tapatalk
When the cue is angled correctly to compensate for squirt, the direction of force through the CB (what you call the "force line") is parallel with the "target line". Since it's what propels the CB along the "target line", that must be true.
Are you saying something different?
pj
chgo
That's because you can't tell the difference between unintelligible and over your head.
pj
chgo
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over my head, under my head, it doesn't really matter!
A conversation can be over my head, then again it can be nonsense which is under my head. When people start using a different frame of reference than the rest of the world it is likely to be you or your first cousin. I like to look at the world from an unusual perspective once in awhile for the sake of humor. You do it as a way of life. I'm waiting to see how these convergent and divergent lines work out. Of course parallel english is already using a convergent path. all the rest are too. Because of the modest affects of spin on the object ball, the cue ball always has to strike it in very close to same place.
Hu
A conversation can be over my head, then again it can be nonsense which is under my head. When people start using a different frame of reference than the rest of the world it is likely to be you or your first cousin. I like to look at the world from an unusual perspective once in awhile for the sake of humor. You do it as a way of life. I'm waiting to see how these convergent and divergent lines work out. Of course parallel english is already using a convergent path. all the rest are too. Because of the modest affects of spin on the object ball, the cue ball always has to strike it in very close to same place.
Hu
If I interpret Imac007's definitions of convergent/divergent correctly, then pure parallel english is neither convergent nor divergent, but sits in the middle of the two cases (because the cue is neither pointing towards or away from the ghost ball line, but is parallel to it). But given finite squirt, we all know that the resulting CB path will not follow the ghost ball line with pure parallel english. Therefore, from the starting point of parallel english, the cue must "diverge" (point away from the ghost ball line) in order to compensate for any squirt. So every cue line must diverge and there are no "convergent" cases, assuming you want to send the CB along the ghost ball line.
Yep, those. If you could tell the difference you wouldn't be confused about identities.
pj
chgo
So, by a converging side spin situation, I think you mean the following: the cue stick is placed to give some amount of sidespin and the line of the cue stick is pointed in a way that it crosses the cue ball-ghost ball line of centers (which I think is what you call the "reference target line") in front of the shooter.
Is that correct?
If so, we the following basic definitions:
![CropperCapture[363].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/390/390482-8c0026d5427008085caed8c014839ba6.jpg?hash=jAAm1UJwCA "CropperCapture[363].png")
![CropperCapture[364].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/390/390483-4f1489397a24defec5bbbe5db033f527.jpg?hash=TxSJOXok3v "CropperCapture[364].png")
And here is a typical "diverging" shot with side spin.
![CropperCapture[367].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/390/390484-2f55486e18b68217b83be0bae50228ba.jpg?hash=L1VIbhi2gh "CropperCapture[367].png")
And here is a typical "parallel english" shot.
![CropperCapture[368].png](https://forums.azbilliards.com/data/attachments/390/390486-c9e7a34c6204b7cae3fee2bbdfc02173.jpg?hash=yeejTGIEt8 "CropperCapture[368].png")
Do you agree with these diagrams and definitions?
Move over and pass a bowl, it’s like herding cats.
A resounding YES.
BHE and FHE both pivot from the ghost ball line.
The ghost ball line extends past the cue ball to the object ball.
The convergent side pivot as I described it would put the tip on the ghost ball line between the two balls. Now a simple pivot so that the new cue line crosses just a dimes width distance to the side of the cb center of mass, means neither the bridge hand nor the grip hand are on the ghost ball line, after the pivot.
So my explanation got through to at least one reader. And, poor pj, being maligned and persecuted because I defended his deflection line physics, sorry guy. But like he said when you’re out on runway #5, you know the place where things keep going over your head, nothing makes sense.
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